Bought the wrong bullets...

[mjs66]

I bought a 100 ct. box of Hornady .45, 230 gr. LRN Item No. 12308, without looking closely enough at the box, with the intent of using them in .45 Colt reloads. When I got home I realized they were what really looked like something that would be intended for used in something like a .45 ACP.

The latest version of the Hornady manual, does not have data for this bullet in .45 Colt, but does for .45 Schofield and also .45 ACP. The closest lead bullet for the Colt in the new manual, is the 255 gr. FP COWBOY, but it’s very different.

They were inexpensive enough that taking the time to return them was not worth the trouble. I guess I could use them for my .45 ACP reloads, but I really don’t want to.

Does anyone have an older Hornady manual that might have load data for .45 Colt in this bullet? Or given that you can shoot .45 Schofield in .45 Colt, would using the Schofield data be ok?

[44 AMP]

1970 Lyman manual shows 8gr Unique for a 235gr cast bullet. 850fps from a 5.5" Colt SAA.

For comparison, only...

[Dufus]

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th has eight different powders list for a 230 gr cast bullet. It is the RCBS #452-230-CM.

Trail Boss, Titegroup, Red Dot (marked as the most accurate load), VV N320, WW 231, Unique, True Blue, and Accurate #5. Will any of those work??

[74A95]

Hodgdon has data for a 230 grain RNFP that might help you.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

[Unclenick]

MJS66,

Your main issue with those bullets in a revolver will be lack of a crimp groove or cannelure. In a revolver, because recoil suddenly pushes the cartridge case to the rear via its contact with the cylinder, there is a tendency to pull the bullets out of the cases. It's sort of like a backward inertial bullet puller. Without adequate crimp, the bullets can actually become loose enough to stick out of the cylinder, thereby jamming cylinder rotation. To prevent this you need either a gun heavy enough to absorb most of the recoil without pushing back on the cartridge rims enough to "pants" them off the bullets, or you need to use very low recoil starting target or CAS loads, or you need to have a firm crimp.

If you go the crimp route, I would recommend you drop the $12 on a Lee Collet Style Crimp Die for 45 Colt. It will form a crimp groove in the bullet as the crimp is applied. This does distort the bullet a little, but not enough to adversely impact revolver accuracy. The distortion is symmetrical, and that's the majority of what matters to bullet accuracy. You will find this a good crimp die for other loads as well. It can even indent a crimp into smooth surface jacketed bullets so it is useful to have in your toolbox.

Otherwise, the resources others have mentioned are fine, including the Hodgdon data. There won't be enough seating depth difference in the RN vs RNFP to affect pressure significantly, so you are good to go in that regard. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is always a good investment, too. Be sure to get the current 4th edition. The 3rd is also available, but doesn't have such a close bullet weight listed.

[mikld]

FWIW; I have used Lyman 225 gr RN in some 45 Colt loads. I wanted some bullets to reload while I waited for a new mold to arrive. I loaded them over a low-medium charge of Trail Boss. I seated them just above the start of the ogive, mebbe 1/16"-3/32", and lightly roll crimped around the taper. I have only fired a dozen or so, but so far they are working OK, Haven't run any over my chrony and no real accuracy testing yet (weather, forest fires, bum knee slowed my shooting down).

[T. O'Heir]

The .45 Colt uses a .452" bullet. According to Hornady's site, their bullet number 12308 is a .452" diameter bullet. So you just need to go to Hodgdon's site. It is not an ACP bullet. It was specifically made and designed for 'Cowboy Action Shooting' in .45 Colt "Cowboy" loads.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

It is not an ACP bullet. It was specifically made and designed for 'Cowboy Action Shooting' in .45 Colt "Cowboy" loads.

Ignore this. t. o'heir is clueless.

It IS an ACP bullet. But you can still use it in the 45 Colt.

[44 AMP]

With a few simple loading "tricks" the .45 Colt is pretty omnivorous about what bullets can be used. All the ACP bullets can be used, the trick is not to try and use them for top end loads.

Lack of a crimp groove is not a deal breaker, as the "bullet pull" of a .45 Colt revolver is not severe, as long as the loads and the bullets are kept fairly light.

And while you can, if you want to, buy a separate crimp die, I've never found a need to, the built in crimp of the seating die does a fine job.

First, be certain you are using the right "size" bullets and expander. pre-WW II the standard size for .45 Colt bullets was .454". Be sure you're not using a .454" expander with .452" bullets.

You can lightly crimp ACP SWC bullets over their front edge, or you can also LIGHTLY crimp into lead RN, and keeping velocities in the 800-850fps range, (or less) with proper case neck tension, I doubt you'll have any trouble.

TO be sure, though, load a dozen or so. Load 6, shoot 5, look at the unfired round. If there's no movement of the bullet, you're good to go. If the bullet HAS moved forward a little, apply a little more crimp to the next set of rounds, and repeat the process.

A little trial and error will get you to a spot where there is enough crimp to hold the slugs in place. Then load the rest of them with that die setting.

OR, find a friend who's willing to buy or trade you something for them..

[mikld]

IIRC, the Hornady bullet was being produced way before Cowboy Action Shooting started...

[1100 tac]

If I were you I would just use them for your 45acp, and get the bullets you want for your 45 Colt.

[Geezerbiker]

When I fist got my .45-70 I had all the reloading supplies but bullet or molds. So I patched up some bullets I cast for my .45ACP and shot them.

If you look in the old cast bullet handbooks you'll find a load you can use...

Tony

[buck460XVR]

Personally, I wouldn't bother working up a load for 100 bullets, especially bullets that are not really appropriate. Basically would just be a waste of time, good powder and primers to send them downrange. I'd try and trade 'em or sell 'em outright to recover a little bit of their cost and move on.

[Mal H]

Why don't we go the source of that bullet and see what they say instead of adamantly saying it is only a .45 ACP bullet:
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/hand...-230-gr-lrn#!/

Sure looks like #12308 was intended as a "Cowboy" bullet using SASS specs. If it was intended for a .45 ACP it would generally be sized at .451" although .452" leads works just fine in an ACP. I'd say you can use it in either cartridge using the proper lead 230 gr. load data.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Mal H

Why don't we go the source of that bullet and see what they say instead of adamantly saying it is only a .45 ACP bullet:
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/hand...-230-gr-lrn#!/

Sure looks like #12308 was intended as a "Cowboy" bullet using SASS specs. If it was intended for a .45 ACP it would generally be sized at .451" although .452" leads works just fine in an ACP. I'd say you can use it in either cartridge using the proper lead 230 gr. load data.

Hornady uses the exact same description of ALL of their lead bullets. Same thing in their manual. It does not mean that that description applies to all lead bullets or that all of their lead bullets are made specifically for the Cowboy shooters.

Pretty sure the 148 gr HBWC bullet wasn't designed specifically for SASS, since target shooting with the 148 gr HBWC is much older than Cowboy shooting. https://www.hornady.com/bullets/hand...148-gr-hbwc#!/

Lead bullets are generally 0.001" larger than the jacketed bullets for the same caliber. It's tough to find lead bullets intended for the 45 Auto at 0.451". They're almost always 0.452", as are many plated bullets. And look at their lead bullets for the 38/357. Jacketed bullets are at 0.357" and lead at 0.358".

Hornady does things a little different than many bullet makers, however. All of their 44 caliber bullets, jacketed and lead, are listed as 0.430", instead of having the jacketed ones at 0.429" and the lead at 0.430".

[Mal H]

Believe what you wish, but do not disparage someone else who has a different opinion. There's nothing wrong with arguing your point, but taking it to a personal level is frowned upon here.

Now, this statement: "It's tough to find lead bullets intended for the 45 Auto at 0.451"." is refuted by Lyman. See their cast lead entries for the .45 ACP.

Originally Posted by Lyman #48

Cast Bullets Used .......... (sized to .451" dia)

That is followed by the Lyman mold types.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Mal H

Believe what you wish, but do not disparage someone else who has a different opinion. There's nothing wrong with arguing your point, but taking it to a personal level is frowned upon here.

Now, this statement: "It's tough to find lead bullets intended for the 45 Auto at 0.451"." is refuted by Lyman. See their cast lead entries for the .45 ACP.
That is followed by the Lyman mold types.

Look at the the rest of the 45 specs. Lyman generally tends to follow the usual advice of sizing the lead bullet 0.001" larger than the groove diameter. Their test barrel (50th edition) has a groove diameter of 0.450".

Don't take my word for it that the Hornady bullet #12308 was made for the 45 Auto. Ask them directly, that way we avoid misinterpreting what is on the page for every lead bullet. Here is their contact page:

https://www.hornady.com/contact/

Scroll down and select "website support", and you can send them a quick email. I'd do it but you'd never believe me.

Also, be sure to ask them that if it is for the 45 Auto, why it isn't sized 0.451".

[Unclenick]

No doubt the Hornady choice of 230-grain weight instead of 225 grains or 255 grains is a nod to the old 45 ACP hardball weight (the current military bullet is actually 234 grains - 0.003 grains, for an average weight of 232.5 grains). However, the military and traditional elliptical RN nose form is long, while the Hornady bullet has a shorter hemispherical nose form. Hornady's recommended COL for this bullet in 45 Auto is just 1.210", rather than near the military hardball max COL of 0.1275" (1.260"-1.270" is what most actual military hardball I've measured is seated to). So, subtracting maximum case length from the Hornady recommended COL for this bullet in the 45 Auto cartridge, we have:

1.210" - 0.898" = 0.312"

That's the length of the ogive.

For 45 Colt, the maximum bullet ogive length is that cartridge's maximum COL minus its maximum case length, and it is:

1.600" - 1.285" = 0.315"

Since 0.312" is less than 0.315", the same bullet may be used in both chamberings. Is it a complete coincidence that the Hornady bullet's ogive is so short that it can be used in either the 45 Auto or the 45 Colt? Do you believe in magic? I don't believe it is a mere coincidence.

In the old days .45 Colt used a .454" groove diameter. That obtained up until WWII, after which having separate rifling setups for 0.454" and 0.451" groove barrels seemed like an unnecessary expense. Knowing a 0.451 groove revolver barrel with a forcing cone could easily swage down 0.454" lead bullets, they started making 0.451" groove diameter barrels on 45 Colt revolvers with 0.454" throats in the chambers so those with molds for the old bullet diameter could still fit them in. Today, new manufacture 45 Colt revolvers have chamber throats sized for the narrow 0.451" and 0.452" jacketed and lead bullets, respectively. As long as your bullet's ogive is short enough, it can work in both. It just can't be over 0.315".

[74A95]

And yet, Hornady (10th edition) does not have load data for the 230 RN in 45 Colt.

Hornady has three lead bullets in their 45 Colt data, the 200 C/T and 200 SWC and the 225 FP Cowboy bullet. Note the only one with the Cowboy name is the 225 FP.

The 200 CT and 200 SWC and 230 RN are made for the 45 Auto. I'm surprised this has to be pointed out. My only guess is that some folks here haven't loaded much 45 Auto.

Of the 38/357 caliber lead bullets, the 148 HBWC, 158 LRN, 158 SWC-HP and 158 SCW are generic lead bullets for this caliber. The only lead bullet in this caliber that Hornady calls a Cowboy bullet is their 140 gr Cowboy bullet.

For the 44 caliber lead bullets, the 180 gr bullet carries the Cowboy name, the 240 grain SWC and SWC-HP bullets don't.

Can you use the lead bullets for Cowboy or non-cowboy loads, semi-auto or revolver? Sure. Whatever fits is fine. The target won't know the difference.

Plenty of people use .357" and .358" revolver bullets in their 9mm and 38 Super. As long as they fit in the chamber, they'll work - some chambers are a little tight for oversized bullets. Again, the target can't tell the difference, unless the oversize bullets shoot a little more accurately, and that's why some folks do this. Also, a lot of 9mm and 38 Barrels are a bit oversized, and sometimes a better fit between the bullet and barrel produces better accuracy.

Wil Schuemann of Schuemann barrels recommends a jacketed bullet of .001 to .002 inches larger, and lead bullets .002 to .003 inches larger for the best accuracy. Nowlin also suggests slightly oversize bullets.

[Unclenick]

The bullet ogive length will let it be used in 45 Colt. Hodgson has has 230 grain RF data that will work just fine with it. I strongly suspect the designer had that in mind, given their ogive length, but you don't have to accept that. It is just a surmise, on my part. But they are suspiciously stubby.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by 74A95

And yet, Hornady (10th edition) does not have load data for the 230 RN in 45 Colt.

Hornady has three lead bullets in their 45 Colt data, the 200 C/T and 200 SWC and the 225 FP Cowboy bullet. Note the only one with the Cowboy name is the 225 FP.

The 200 CT and 200 SWC and 230 RN are made for the 45 Auto. I'm surprised this has to be pointed out. My only guess is that some folks here haven't loaded much 45 Auto.

Actually, the FP "Cowboy" is a 255 grainer, not a 225. The diameter of the 255gr FP is .454", much more appropriate for use in a .45 Colt. The use of the 200 grainers in .45 colt, in the Hornady manual probably has to do with being able to roll crimp over the lip of the bullet because of the SWC profile. The lack of a cannelure and the round nose would make this not possible with the 230grainer.

I'm not saying that using a 230gr .452" LRN in .45 Colt is not possible, just probably not the best case scenario, with the wide array of more appropriate projectiles out there. Not only can the bullet not be properly crimped for a revolver, but it is also a tad small in diameter. Thus the odds for leading without knowing your throat/bore size are high. So add together the effort to clean a leaded bore and finding a decent recipe just to use up 100 improper bullets, leads me back to my original statement......

Personally, I wouldn't bother working up a load for 100 bullets, especially bullets that are not really appropriate. Basically would just be a waste of time, good powder and primers to send them downrange. I'd try and trade 'em or sell 'em outright to recover a little bit of their cost and move on.

Getting the wrong bullet is one reason I always suggest to new reloaders to never buy any components in large quantity/bulk, until you know it works well for you. The OP's error is a common one among new reloaders. New reloaders need to use components that are appropriate and are easy to have good success with. Later on, when one gets to know his gun and the quirks of reloading, than using odd ball components make be more realistic and have a better chance for success. The OP claims he can take them back, but it's not worth the bother. Then I ask, why bother to try and reload therm? He also claims he could use them in his .45 ACP but chooses not too. I ask, why not? There's plenty of info out there for the projectile and it's made for .45 ACP. If one is going to have decent success reloading it, why not at least use it in the proper platform/caliber? There was a time not too long ago where we reloaders were desperate to find powders/primers/projectiles that we were familiar with and had used for years. Sometimes we bought what was left on the shelf and not what we wanted just to have something to put downrange. It ain't like that now.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by buck460XVR

Not only can the bullet not be properly crimped for a revolver, but it is also a tad small in diameter.

It can be crimped just fine with the die I suggested. Modern 45 Colts are made for that same bullet diameter. But your later suggestion to measure throats is something always good to do in any revolver.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by buck460XVR

Actually, the FP "Cowboy" is a 255 grainer, not a 225. The diameter of the 255gr FP is .454", much more appropriate for use in a .45 Colt.

You're right. My error. Thanks for correcting me.

[NWPilgrim]

It takes me 35 bullets just to load a test ladder for one powder/bullet combination. Not something I would bother with in order to hope to hit on a good combo and then shoot 65 more with no plans to ever load them again.

If too much trouble to return them or load them in .45acp, then I would use .45 colt dies to size and seat, and 45acp dies to size case mouth and crimp. Then charge it with 7.0 or 8.0 gr Unique and call it good and blast away 100 rounds and forget about it. And in the time it took to read this thread I could have done all that!

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

It can be crimped just fine with the die I suggested. Modern 45 Colts are made for that same bullet diameter. But your later suggestion to measure throats is something always good to do in any revolver.

From then link you provided....the cost of shipping is more than the cost of the die. Thus about $25 more to load 100 bullets that probably cost under $20. Why invest that much in something you probably aren't gonna use again? Those 230s, again, while they can be shot are not optimal, so why think you're gonna work up a load and shoot them forever? Iffin' he just wants to throw them downrange and make noise, just to get rid of them, he can do just a well using the die he has and limiting the crimp to just removing the bell. Still, why bother?

NWPilgrim is basically saying the same thing I am.....

It takes me 35 bullets just to load a test ladder for one powder/bullet combination. Not something I would bother with in order to hope to hit on a good combo and then shoot 65 more with no plans to ever load them again.

If too much trouble to return them or load them in .45acp, then I would use .45 colt dies to size and seat, and 45acp dies to size case mouth and crimp. Then charge it with 7.0 or 8.0 gr Unique and call it good and blast away 100 rounds and forget about it. And in the time it took to read this thread I could have done all that.