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Old March 17, 2014, 03:02 PM   #26
Lucas McCain
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IMHO the reason is that there are only a few who want a pump action center fire rifle. As has been stated previously "Remington listens closely to it customers". I think this is why Remington is the only manufacturer of pump action center fires. Take long look at who uses them, a large majority are as follows:
1. They own a Remington pump 22.
2. They own a Remington pump shotgun.
3. because all their guns are pumps they like them, are familiar with them,
hence their deer rifle is also a pump.
4. They are loyal to the brand.

Off hand I can't think of any other manufactuers in production today who make pump action centerfires.
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Old March 17, 2014, 04:49 PM   #27
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There's a reproduction of the Colt pump rifle, I want to say Uberti makes it. It's rather pricey.
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Old March 17, 2014, 05:07 PM   #28
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After reading the posts and thinking about it some more, I've got to think that, even though the answer is "multiple factors" as mentioned, the following factors loomed a little larger than most:

1. Pointed bullets in tube mags / The "liability factor". I'd imagine that as long-range and BC became ever more popular among hunters and hobbyists alike over the years, the pointy bullets won out over rounded soft points, particularly in bottle-necked rounds. Most pumps use tube mags which don't play well with pointy bullets, and gives rise to manuf. liability when people blow themselves up - and manufacturers really don't care for that when selling an item that has a pretty razor-thin profit margin to begin with.

2. Legality of semi-autos for hunting: Pumps are the fastest you can get on follow-up shots.... *except* for semi-autos. How many states are semi-autos legal for big or most game? I'd guess more than half, no? So they guys and gals concerned about follow-ups have gone to a semi (for about the same weight as a pump, and not much more price, if any).

3. Kind of related to #2, is the trend toward stand and blind hunting, and away from "walking-hunting" (stalking, etc.), where you generally don't need but one shot, and if you do need a follow-up, a turnbolt is "fast enough".

But surely some other factors contribute as well (reputation for poor accuracy and/or less-than-reliable extraction in the grit, deserved or not).

Edit: On second thought, I don't think #1 is much of it after all in recent history (last 30 years), because, who even made pump centerfires with tube mags? Remingtons is a box mag.... although the lack of them does kind of prove the point also. How many types were there 50 and 60 years ago? I know there were some, but not anymore I don't think. In fact, if you look at the popularity of detachable box mags, I'm a bit surprised Browning or someone hasn't reintroduced a pump to compete with the Remington 7600 (using the same mags as their BLRs for example), in light of how "hot" the industry has been in the last 5 years.

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Old March 17, 2014, 05:18 PM   #29
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I have a Remington Model 14 in 32 Remington, inherited from my father.

This Pedersen design has all forged and machined action parts and is a real slick piece of engineering. The rifle has a tubular magazine but is designed with a corkscrew twist so the bullets do not rest their points on the primers of the rounds behind them as most tube magazines do, such as the lever actions. Nevertheless, the ammo makers put flat or round nose bullets into the ammo anyway. Of the four calibers the model 14 was chambered in, only the 35 Remington ever caught on with shooters and is still a currently offered chambering in some firearms.

Pedersen was the designer of many fine actions and was said by John M Browning to be, "the finest firearms designer in the world." That's pretty high praise.
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Old March 17, 2014, 05:28 PM   #30
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but is designed with a corkscrew twist so the bullets do not rest their points on the primers of the rounds behind them
Wow. Genius. Got a pic?
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Old March 17, 2014, 06:21 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Bart
Pawpaw says Remington pumps have free floating barrels. Their barrels only touch the receiver they're screwed into? The pump mechanics must also be free floating. Amazing.
Yep, every one I've ever seen of the Remington 760/7600 pumps are free floating. The barrel touches only the receiver, at the threads. The pump action tube is also free-floating and doesn't touch the barrel anywhere. They're really more accurate than most people might believe. Mine shoots 1.0-1.5 minute, depending who's behind the rifle. I think that's extremely good accuracy for a hunting rifle.
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Old March 17, 2014, 06:39 PM   #32
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Remington Model 14

You can google pics. AS you can see from the pic. The barrel on the Model 14 is also free floating. The magazine tube and pump handle all work thru a ring on the barrel.


Action closed - pump handle forward.


Action open - pump handle back.
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Old March 17, 2014, 07:10 PM   #33
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if you ever have a case head blow out, i hope you are firing a rem 760-7600 pump.as you face and eyes will not get any gas. i know of a man who made a mistake reloading shells for his 3006 and 180gr bullets loaded with 4227 in them, like 54grs or so. the rifles whole trigger group was blown out of the rifle along with the magizine and the action was bulged out like a knocked up whale, and what was left case was welded to the bolt head and the rifle was wrecked. but the man only had two broken fingers and a black and blue shoulder. my rem 760-7600,s don,t rattle and don,t weight any more than a regular rifle with wood stock. and they can be had in many calibure from .223 to 35 whelen. i have then in 243-.260- 270 7-08-280-308-3006. years ago i met a man who lost a eye when his pre-64 winchester blew up,i don,t know what caused it, but just like the 760 that let go, much more pressure than it was intended for. what i like is the fact i don,t have to remove my firing hand from the trigger group to work the action or taking rifle off my shoulder. eastbank.
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Old March 17, 2014, 07:59 PM   #34
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Scorch...why is a pump rifle comparatively expensive to make but a pump shot gun can be had for so little?
Different animals entirely other than the fact that they have a similar handle. Pump action rifles are complex because of the locking mechanism for the bolt. Pump rifles have to rotate a bolt head just like a semi-auto rifles, i.e. cams and cam grooves. Pump shotguns typically use a single lug that is cammed into the barrel extension, which works fine for the pressures involved. Shotguns are simple yet rugged, but there are very few pump shotguns with rotating bolt (the Winchester 1200/1300 come to mind right away, I am sure there are others).

Biggest thing to keep in mind: people vote with their wallets. If more people wanted pump action rifles, there would be more of them.
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Old March 18, 2014, 11:27 AM   #35
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Another pump action rifle would be the AK pump actions. They were made to work around the laws that ban the semi autos in certain areas.
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Old March 18, 2014, 02:27 PM   #36
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People use pump action shotguns because when bird or rabbit hunting, you don't have to remove the gun from your shoulder and can quickly fire a follow up shot if necessary.
Huh? Last time I checked you don't need to unshoulder a bolt action to get a follow up shot. Maybe if you're shooting a right handed rifle with your left hand, under most circumstances you can cycle the bolt of a bolt action rather quickly, and without removing the stock from your shoulder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=017HY8V8nU0
That's a mosin nagant, which are known for having some pretty sticky, hard to work actions, at times.
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Old March 18, 2014, 03:05 PM   #37
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For what is is worth, there was an attempt to market pump 223s to the police in order not to have them carry an EBR (politics) and take advantage of their 870 training. Didn't work out.
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Old March 18, 2014, 05:59 PM   #38
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Remington 7615P .... Yeah, really expensive. Pretty good idea though.

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

FWIW, one of the last 3 rifles I'd ever part with is the IMI Timberwolf in .357 mag - that is one hardcore verstatile gun. It's a fun gun, it's a light hunter, a home defense, and homeSTEAD defense gun for deterring even bears and such from an attack. It works, doesn't really recoil, and is accurate. It's wearing a Burris MTAC 1.5-6x40mm scope, which is a great scope for it. You have the large circle for CQB, and the small center aiming point for precision.

BigG, yeah, I did image search that rifle (model 14) right after your post and got what you show there. Thanks. However, the magazine does NOT actually appear to corkscrew. It appears to be a straight mag with some spiral twisting to the mag walls, but I don't see how this holds the rounds in any way other than straight. I don't see how those spirals would do anything to the alignment of the cartridges inside the mag - even if the rim engages that "rifling" or spiraling, it seems that the mag walls themselves would still keep them straight - and if the rim engages the spiraling, how do they feed right? Weird. And interesting.

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Old March 18, 2014, 07:42 PM   #39
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watch people shooting a bolt action and you will see most take the rifle down to work the action. they can be worked from the shoulder rather fast,but still your trigger finger has to go along with your hand when working the bolt,slamming it back and then slamming it forward and loseing your sight pictue and the game your shooting at. i can have a newbe shooting a pump at a moving target and hitting it way before i could train one on a bolt action. if i am shooting long range or getting long shots at game,then i will take a bolt action. but for close to medium ranges i,ll be carrying a pump. eastbank.
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Old March 18, 2014, 07:56 PM   #40
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Scorch, thanks for the reply. Did not know that. Interestingly enough I own a winchester pump shotgun like you described. Didnt know it was anything out of the ordinary as far as shotguns go. Again, thanks
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Old March 18, 2014, 08:21 PM   #41
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JD0x0

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
People use pump action shotguns because when bird or rabbit hunting, you don't have to remove the gun from your shoulder and can quickly fire a follow up shot if necessary.
Huh? Last time I checked you don't need to unshoulder a bolt action to get a follow up shot. Maybe if you're shooting a right handed rifle with your left hand, under most circumstances you can cycle the bolt of a bolt action rather quickly, and without removing the stock from your shoulder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=017HY8V8nU0
That's a mosin nagant, which are known for having some pretty sticky, hard to work actions, at times.
If you are firing a [military]bolt action right handed, most I have seen unshoulder the rifle. Do you NEED to unshoulder it? No. However I've fired many a K-98 that had a very tight lock up, and it was extremely impractical to leave it shouldered.

That being said, just as in the video you presented, the shooter had to break his break his cheek off the stock to move his face out of the way of the bolt after every shot, therefore having to reset the stock and reacquire the target. That translates to me as alot more effort on the user, and a loss of time/accuracy.

Also, you're comparing a Mosin bolt action to a slide action shotgun... If a bolt action shotgun was more practical to use in bird/rabbit hunting, I guess we'd be seeing alot more at the skeet ranges and in the field!

Must be why Tom Knapp was able to shoot 7 clays out of the air with a pump, NOT a bolt action... Just sayin

I can shoot my 870 pretty darn quick without moving my hands (other than to move the slide) or face while maintaining a line of site to my target. I'd be willing to bet a $100 bill, that I can get 3 rounds out of my 870 shotgun before anyone can get 3 off with a Mosin Nagant...


The OP was originally asking about pump action rifles, so I feel that we're straying away from the topic a little.
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Old March 18, 2014, 08:30 PM   #42
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Yep, MoGas - you are right - a pump is faster than a turnbolt in equally trained hands (although someone with an SMLE can get close).

Pumps vs. levers are a closer call, but pumps still win.

Now pumps vs. straight-pull bolts are closer still, almost a dead heat - I think pump still wins though - you don't have to move your trigger hand at all, unlike the others.

The only manual repeater I can think of faster than a slide action would be a Browning BL-22 possibly, with the short-stroke lever. But that's rimfire not centerfire.
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Old March 18, 2014, 08:38 PM   #43
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Dremel,
That would be awesome if someone could work a K-31 Schmidt-Rubin like Tom Knapp worked that Benelli! I would honestly pay money to see that

But I agree someone could get pretty darn close with that little Browning.
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Old March 18, 2014, 08:51 PM   #44
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Heh heh, yeah.

A pump or any manual repeater, is going to be, on average, in the long run, more reliable than a semi-auto (and usually a bit lighter too).

Therefore, one way to look at this is, pumps are the fastest you can get and still retain a "super-high" degree of reliability (as opposed to just "very high" degree of reliability of a quality semi-auto). If "super-high" is your thresshold degree of acceptable reliability (and we're only talking the difference of 3 or 4 *more* jams per 5K shots - or similar, but it's something to be sure), then in that light, pumps are where it's it, even for self-defense - espec. detach mag stuff like that Rem 7615P.

Also, even if the number of jams per 5K were the same, a manual repeater is quicker to "un-jam you" than a semi, and especially a pump. Usually just need to tilt, re-rack, and go. There's definitely something to be said for pumps, in my view, in both shotguns and rifles. In my mind, rifles even more so than shotguns, because a shotgun - holy moses, you WANT that semi-auto action to absorb some of that recoil; with a rifle, this is not as big of an issue.

So the appeal of my little IMI Timberwolf or that Rem 7615 or any pump is definitely grounded in some logic, I believe, for self-defense at least - not really hunting - or in a dual-purpose rifle where defense is part of the equation.

Don't forget that 7400 and 7600 Remington magazines are interchangeable. And some of the aftermarket ones were made in higher capacities like 10 rounds, and were directed primarily to the semi-auto market (7400s)... which this gives you the best of all worlds in a sense in a pump or semi - but here we're talking pumps - so you get extremely-high reliability and very very fast; just almost as fast as a semi, and "middle-capacity", reasonably-quick-change mags ....

That makes something like a 7600 in .243 win or similar a very formidable "just one" rifle for both hunting and self-defense. Or for that matter, a bigger chambering like .30-'06 or younameit. Now is the reliability going to be as high as a turnbolt in the grit? No, but it will be higher than a semi-auto, if only a little. And a wee bit lighter than a semi, too, which is very important in a "just one".

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that a "just one" rifle (where you have only one for life to hunt and everything else with), if such a scenario were forced upon you for some reason, is really a tossup between semi-auto, pump, and turnbolt. If you think the likelihood of SHTF-WROL is high, semi. If you think the likelihood of SHTF-WROL is low, turnbolt (scout rifle). If you think it's somewhere in the middle, or unknown, then the pump is the best goldilocks middle ground of weight, speed, & reliability, particularly a 7600 where 10-round aftermarket mags can be had. Although since the 7600 mags have a bolt-hold-open tab, you'd have to somehow disable this I think to make them run in a 7400.

In my opinion..... Dang, now I want a 7600 in .243, or a 7615P, ha ha.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222928

Oh yeah, and of course rifles like the 7615P are popular in commie states with restrictions on semi-auto EBRs.... Note that this trend is increasing with states like NJ & CT following CA, IL, and others - so these may become bigger sellers, notwithstanding AR15 craze. I would NOT want to tangle with anyone with a 7615 in their hand with good mags and had practiced with it, under 100 yards (the accuracy is a bit iffy; it's a 75-100 yard gun, by most accounts).

Damn, how about this: 7615 P in 6.8 SPC? Heck yeah!

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Old March 19, 2014, 10:07 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Unlicensed Dremel
Damn, how about this: 7615 P in 6.8 SPC? Heck yeah!
I'd plunk good green money on one of those in a heartbeat.
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Old March 19, 2014, 11:27 AM   #46
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I did image search that rifle (model 14) right after your post and got what you show there. Thanks. However, the magazine does NOT actually appear to corkscrew. It appears to be a straight mag with some spiral twisting to the mag walls
I used to hunt with a guy who had one of the Rem pumps (cannot now recall if it was a 14 or a 141). Caliber was .30 Remington.

I can tell you the mag does work. IT is a straight tube, but the impressed (grooves) dimples do their job, and each round's bullet is not directly against the primer of the round ahead of it in the mag. The "dimples" press on the case body, in such a way as to slightly "tilt" the round, referenced to the centerline of the mag tube.

So, what you have with the Remington is a line of cartridges, each one tilted right or left (thanks to the "twists" in the tube, so that pointed bullets can be safely used.

Winchester & Marlin, the cartridges are in a perfectly straight line in the tube, each bullet nose against the primer of the round ahead of it. Pointed bullets cannot be safely used.
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Old March 19, 2014, 12:50 PM   #47
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I used to hunt with a guy who had one of the Rem pumps (cannot now recall if it was a 14 or a 141). Caliber was .30 Remington.

I can tell you the mag does work. IT is a straight tube, but the impressed (grooves) dimples do their job, and each round's bullet is not directly against the primer of the round ahead of it in the mag. The "dimples" press on the case body, in such a way as to slightly "tilt" the round, referenced to the centerline of the mag tube.

So, what you have with the Remington is a line of cartridges, each one tilted right or left (thanks to the "twists" in the tube, so that pointed bullets can be safely used.

Winchester & Marlin, the cartridges are in a perfectly straight line in the tube, each bullet nose against the primer of the round ahead of it. Pointed bullets cannot be safely used.
Thanks for verifying. Pedersen was a very clever inventor having made the 14 - 141 and several other guns for Remington, the Pedersen device for the WWI Springfield 1903, the Remington 45 Automatic Pistol, etc.

The Remington proprietary cartridges were 25, 30, 32, and 35 Rem which were rimless "clones" of the Winchester 25-35, 30-30, and 32 Special with the 35 Remington being a step beyond anything Winchester was offering. Plus the Remington rifles could use pointed bullets which would add effective range to the cartridge.
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Old March 20, 2014, 10:21 AM   #48
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Interesting, 44Amp; thanks. That was the golden age of gun designers, it seems.
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Old March 20, 2014, 05:14 PM   #49
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I've always wanted a pump-action remington in 308 or such for deer hunting but everyone of them that I picked up rattled while just handling the gun.

The same can be said for rem autos, the mag rattles. I make enough noise in the woods without clink clink.
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Old March 21, 2014, 09:34 AM   #50
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A remington 760/7600 is one of the most underrated hunting firearms on the market. IMO
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