38/357 do you use a Factory Crimp Die?

[Mike / Tx]

hulley,

As you can see the range of usefulness of the FCD varies quite a bit among shooters. I personally have two of them. One is the standard type which I purchased for loading 454 loads, however I quickly realized it did just what some of the other post here have suggested. It post sized my bullets when I ran them into it. I figured well I will try it with my ACP loads and see how it works on them. Same thing post sized my bullets. Now before the outcry about oversized bullets being the culprit, both of these calibers were sized to .452" which is a FAR cry from being oversized. What I DID find it useful for was ironing out some of the loaded rounds which sometimes do not fit my Wilson case gauge for my ACP. I purchased a ton of "once fired" brass. On occasion while running them through my progressive I find a half dozen or so that won't quite drop to the bottom with my gauge. I usually only have to run them past the crimp which is noted by a substantial bump when it goes through the carbide ring. That is usually where I have the die set up to so as to not get any more than that area.

My other FCD is one that was custom ordered and is one of the rifle dies for 41 magnum, where it uses the floating collet and on the top end of the stroke applies the crimp. It has no carbide ring in it and I recently just started to use it in fact I have had it for close to two years and only used it on 40 or so rounds.

With your question however, I have loaded hundreds and hundreds of 357 rounds using only a taper crimp die. It was in a set which was given to me and I simply didn't feel the need at the time to get anything else. That said, I have used it on top end 110, 125, and upwards of 158gr jacketed loads and I set it as mentioned by David there above. I did however make sure that I had the biggest portion located at the mid to bottom of the cannalure where it would get the best grip. I also now having purchased a newer st of dies use the roll crimp almost exclusively. I simply find it to give the best overall accuracy from my two GP-100's in identical loads using both crimps side by side.

One last thing so I can REALLY stoke the fire and get things moving. If your looking for top performance from your loads, do yourself a favor and trim your cases. I know, I know, hundreds have never nor will ever start to trim a revolver case simply due to it is not needed and they never grown. I can hear it already so save your typing. Most of those same folks however feel that anything beyond spitting distance it out of range for a revolver anyway and 6 shots in a pie plate at 20yds is entirely adequate. Myself I feel that if the loads are shooting that big at 20yds something is horribly wrong. They should easily shoot well within 2-3" at 20yds, and SHOULD be that size at ranges out to 50yds to be good.

To paraphrase someone who forgot more about handgun loads than most will ever learn, " to ensure a perfect crimp cases MUST be trimmed to the exact overall length and a hard, heavy crimp made. If cases are full length resized, and expanding plug is small enough so that you cannot turn the bullet in the case by hand before crimping, your well on your way to perfect ammo. Next if cases are trimmed to proper length, you will then get a uniform heavy crimp necessary to hold the bullets against the recoil of other loads." Elmer Keith - "Sixgun Reloading" 1982.

While I follow the above line of thought, and do trim my cases to length, I feel, and have proved to myself if nobody else, that how much crimp needed is relative to the loads being shot. Like David mentioned, I usually will test the crimp on a new load to find just the amount needed to hold the bullets in place during recoil. I usually load 6 rounds and then run the first 4 through a couple of times checking after each shot for any movement of the last two. If they move I give them a touch more crimp, and repeat until I find no movement. I have found that this is usually the best overall crimp for that particular load, and usually also gives the best accuracy as well.

[hulley]

Great info Mike/Tx and makes perfect sense. I'm planning a trip to my gun club this weekend (1.5hr drive) and wanted to shoot my GP100 at 50yds to see what kind of groups I can get. I have made up a few more loads not using the FCD and will see what happens. I do plan on checking the rounds after each shot fired for movement, although I think I have a good crimp on them now.

[Nick_C_S]

I've been lurking this post from the beginning. I decided to use the opportunity to absorb information for a change, rather than expel it.

About this time last year, I loaded some 38 Spl 148 DEWC's (lead double-ended wadcutter). Some distorted the outside of the brass to the point where they wouldn't drop into revolver charge holes. I borrowed my buddy's FCD and solved the problem with one stroke of the press. I was so thoroughly impressed that I bought FCD's for every caliber I own.

If this post started 6 months ago, I'd immediately chime in saying that they're indispensable and the greatest thing since the Lee Auto-Prime.

Experience has since adjusted my viewpoint. First, I have since realized that the only brass that distorts with the above-mentioned loading is my oldest brass with a 1983 date stamp on it ("WCC 83"). So it would seem the brass is the actual problem and the FCD is simply covering it. Even knowing that however, I still haven't stopped using the old brass - or the FCD. But a new problem has come to my attention: leading. These rounds seriously lead the barrel when by all accounts, they shouldn't. As of late, I suspect the culprit is the FCD swaging down the bullets, causing improper fit. What really got me thinking was the amount of leading in the cylinder throats - a phenomenon I have never seen in 30 years of shooting.

My next step is to check the same ammo for leading when using new brass and no FCD. But this is a work in progress and I haven't come to any conclusions at this point.

This post is not to say I've become anti-FCD. I still like them and still use them. I still believe that they are indispensable with 9mm and 45ACP. It's anecdotal, but it would sure seem that my 45 ammo feeds more reliably when using the FCD.

So that's my experience at this point.

[Real Gun]

It's anecdotal, but it would sure seem that my 45 ammo feeds more reliably when using the FCD.

The best of both worlds is to process the .45 (fired) cases through the Bulge Buster and then skip the FCD for crimping (of lead bullets). I did this and went to a Redding Taper Crimp.

The place to start is to see if sized (and probably deprimed at the same time) cases will freely and completely drop into a gauge. If loading for only one gun, you can use the barrel's chamber, if that's the way you like to gauge, whether natural direction or case head first.

[Nick_C_S]

The best of both worlds is to process the .45 (fired) cases through the Bulge Buster. . .

Real Gun, I do use a Bulge Buster for 45ACP and 10mm now. I didn't want to mention this however, as not not hijack the thread and send it off on a tangent.

I still use the FCD for crimping though (I have only ran into problems with using the FCD's with the one above-mentioned 38 DEWC load, with only the old above-mentioned brass - I've had no other problems with them at all). I even bought dedicated FCD's for 45 and 10 so I didn't have to keep reconfiguring between steps.

My process seems to work great.

[57K]

I'm not a fan of LEE dies from having tried them in the past and even before there was an FCD. For loading jacketed bullets, I'm sure the FCD is just fine for those that are satisfied with LEE dies. The problem is with oversized bullets and variation in case wall thicknesses. Even cases from the same manufacturer vary in case wall thickness. In my case, I find Rem. brass in .45 ACP is thin enough to the point that I segregate them for use with cast lead bullets. I noticed one poster mentioned that when post sizing where a thicker case might be used with an oversized bullet, swaging that bullet down as will occurr with the FCD will have no effect on cast bullets because they should still be able to obturate. This is rarely the case and even if you swage a cast lead bullet down to groove diameter, unless you're shooting at pretty mild velocities, leading is going to be an issue. A cast lead bullet should never be swaged down in diameter and that potential is a very real possibility using the FCD.

In a lot of discussions, I generally agree that bullet set-back is a function caused by an oversized expander and can not be overcome through taper crimping alone. LEE's solution is to post size to one diameter where the case-mouth is under SAAMI max. spec. For the past 15 years or so, I've bought nothing but REDDING dies and I find that they're worth every extra penny you pay for them. In revolver sets you now get the Profile Crimp die and as mentioned previously it applies both taper and roll crimp. With cast lead bullets oversized at least .001" I use just enough crimp to remove the flare or just barely more than that. It's also the way I load .45 ACP where my JHP rounds get a separate taper crimp in a dedicated REDDING Taper crimp die so that I don't have to alter my seating/crimp die. The thing I've noticed about REDDING Taper Crimp dies is that because REDDING tends to machine to the tightest tolerance levels in the industry, added tension is applied to the caseneck up to the point where the taper angle increases to effect around .1" at and below the case-mouth. Perfect, IMO, and all one needs to learn is to set the die up properly. If you have enough coordination to measure case-mouth diameter with a dial caliper, you should be able to easily set up a REDDING Taper Crimp die and if you're loading for magnum revolvers, proper crimp will be determined by how much roll crimp you apply. With target revolver loads using oversized cast lead bullets, a good many reloaders only apply a slight taper crimp, or just remove the flare. Again, easily accomplished with the Profile Crimp die. They're worth every penny!

[Nick_C_S]

Great read 57K - as usual.

[57K]

Thanks Nick!

[jamaica]

I'm using a Lee Turret press and use the Factory Crimp Die on my pistol rounds but was wondering if its necessary on revolver rounds.

In one word: NO

[JDBark1952]

I have not had a need to use a FCD on my 38/357. My 45LC did require I use one, but then I was loading hot loads and the recoil was making the bullets slide back into the case, I have since stopped doing hot loads.

[A pause for the COZ]

Pretty much every one covered the bad parts of the FCD. And I agree 100%. That carbide ring will re-size your cast bullets.
That does not mean I dont use them. I get lazzy some times and its sooo much easier to have two separate operations. Especially if all your brass is not the exact same lenth. The FCD is much more forgiving when it comes to variations in trim length.
I work around that in a couple ways.
For 38 special. I knocked out the carbide ring. So now its just a crimp die. No post sizing.
I suspect it will work on 357 magnum also, but I picked up a LEE special order 357 magnum collet crimp die. Now thats the Bees Knees.

[Real Gun]

In one word: NO

Comments about the FCD are of little value without being explicit whether jacketed bullets are involved. To review, there is no case that the FCD does not serve well when used on bullets of standard diameter, most commonly jacketed.

[wncchester]

Well said Real Gun. A tool is just a tool and the user has to know what he's doing and use his tools correctly or they're all "junk"; perhaps that applies to Lee's tools more than any other brands.

So far as Redding dies, they are quite good tools and have great finishes but how/why anyone can say they are held to "tighter tolerances" than others is a mystery. I mean, it seems all web experts 'know' that but is it true?

Our die makers all hold to SAAMI tolerances. Tolerances are a diminsional range, NOT a specific point. Anything inside the +/- SAAMI tolerance is deemed in tolerance; how can it be otherwise? And given that chambers also have tolerances, it can be a moot point of what is 'best' for an individual. What's Redding or any other die maker to do, shoot for the smallest dimension and make a sloppy cartridge to chamber fit worse or go towards the larger side of the SAAMI dimension and know some people will say that they made a 'loose tolerance' die?

I have some 50+ die sets in a wide mixture of brands, including Lee and Redding. I've made die 'chamber' casts and measured them, sized a lot of cases and measured them. I can say with confidence there is as much variation between sizers of the same brand as there is between brands. Why not, the makers all work within the same industry specifications!

My point is, web experts who make supposed authoritative statements about die tolerances by brand really don't quite know what they're talking about. Those who use Lee's dies with satisfaction very likely do know what they're talking about.

[mikld]

Or, instead of throwing it away, you could punch-out the carbide ring in the mouth of the die that is the offending part, and just use it as a dedicated crimp die, which comes in handy with a progressive and at least four stations.

Yep, punched out the carbide ring. Resulting crimp was well below my standards (which ain't very high ), so I just tossed the die and went back to my Redding Profile Crimp Die. Crimp from modified Lee die was un-even and rough (I know, "how could it be uneven?", resulting roll crimp seemed "wavy".).
__________________

[wogpotter]

Comments about the FCD are of little value without being explicit whether jacketed bullets are involved. To review, there is no case that the FCD does not serve well when used on bullets of standard diameter, most commonly jacketed.

I actually got mine specifically for non jacketed rounds.
I'd been using exclusively Hornady 125 Gr XTP's & was fine with the supplied seat/crimp die from my RCBs die set.
Then I lucked into a good sized lot of assorted plated & hard cast bullets of varying weights & shapes. Once I realized the advantages of seating & crimping separately I was looking for the die to crimp.
Somewhere on here is the thread where I asked for advice, as usual it was very varied so I ended up going with the Lee Carbide FCD.
Found it! Here's the whole thing:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=502067

I crimp for the XTPs with it using a lot of crimp into the cannelure. At 1350 FPS no problems.

I crimp the Plated lead (sorry I don't know the brand, they were in an unmarked 1-gallon baggie) just enough to not cut the plating. These run about 1000 FPS again no problems.

I crimp the DEWC's into the front groove quite firmly. These run about 750 FPS, no problems.

I crimp the SWC's into the crimp groove, again quite firmly. I don't run these over about 950FPS because of leading, but no crimp-related problems.

The RN's also get the crimp into the first groove. Again leading is the limiting factor at about 850 FPS.

Back when the original thread was running I heard a lot about shaving bullets so I measured the bullets, cases, die & inserts. The carbide die in the bottom of the die body measures 0.375" so that isn't going to contact any part of even an over sized .357 projectile. The crimping (sliding) insert further up inside the die (this is the sliding sleeve that does the actual crimp forming) measures 0.376" at the wide (bottom) end & 0.358 at the to end above where the crimp is formed.

I've never shaved a lead or plated round with the Carbide FCD so I have no idea what others are doing to create the problem. Several of the lead bullets were slightly oversize at 0.358"~0.359" so, riddle me this, Batman how does a an 0.376" die "swage down" a .358~.359" projectile exactly?

[Real Gun]

FCD problems with lead bullets are primarily with .45 ACP, I believe, since those seem to be the ones that can commonly measure over .001 larger than standard.

[57K]

My point is, web experts who make supposed authoritative statements about die tolerances by brand really don't quite know what they're talking about. Those who use Lee's dies with satisfaction very likely do know what they're talking about.

First off, I hold a degree in design/engineering technology and I've been handloading for 28 years. 16 years ago, I went back to school for a machining technology course and one of the courses of study was geometric tolerancing; which I happened to CLEP. That's credit by examination.

While you may have 50 sets of dies, evidently you haven't discerned the differences between any of them. Furthermore, tolerancing and specification are 2 different animals. The SAAMI spec used is for MAX. dimensions and within that spec, the different die makers use their own tolerances within their own spec that runs smaller than SAAMI. The same is true for barrelmakers where the big boys allow for greater tolerances while custom barrel makers machine to tighter tolerances to insure accuracy throughout their product line.

There are a number of things that actually set REDDING apart. First, they're the only die maker that uses Titanium Carbide for the sizing ring. It is the hardest and slickest of all carbides used for sizing rings, i.e. higher cost in production. Second, REDDING uses the hardest steels among the popular die brands, i.e. shorter lifespan of cutting tools such as mills which again raises manufacturing costs. Third, while die makers set their own Max spec. below the SAAMI Max, each manufacturer uses their own tolerancing guidelines where REDDING's happens to be the tightest and again, tighter tolerancing requires greater care and time in machining which also adds to manufacturing costs.

I have used 4 different LEE dies sets for handgun calibers. The first right after the .40 S&W was introduced when there was no FCD. Their taper crimp die went from not enough crimp to excessive crimp at very minimal adjustment. I called LEE only to have some customer service "expert" try to convince me that I didn't know how to properly execute a taper crimp! Fortunately, Midway's attitude was different and my mmonet was refunded and used for a better die set. Then just for grins I've tried 3 other sets all with the FCD in 9mm, .357 Magnum and .45 ACP and there's no way I'd recommend them over Lyman or RCBS and they're not even in the same ballpark with REDDING. In all 3 cases the FCD gave a herky-jerky feel in the crimp process. My shooting partner recently started handloading and I gave him his first reloading set-up which included LEE 9mm carbide dies with the FCD. Even with jacketed bullets, the FCD is swaging bullets down to the point where caseneck tension is no longer adequate. He's been on a waiting list for the REDDING Taper Crimp die for about a year now.

When it comes to possible set-back issues, I usually agree that it is most often effected by a slightly undersized expander and when folks are not using REDDING dies. Upon examination of my handloads and the dies themselves, REDDING Taper Crimp dies are manufactured well enough that additional case-neck tension is applied in the crimping operation on the entire case-neck to the point where the taper becomes more severe to effect the top .1" of the case-neck and executing a perfect Taper Crimp. The Profile Crimp die does much the same to allow those who don't want to roll crimp a light lead target load where the main concern is removing the flare from the expanding operation. The amount of taper crimp can be controlled up to allowing the roll crimp function to be applied to Magnum revolver cartridges.

So, your assertion that people who use LEE dies with satisfaction very like do know what they're talking about should actually read that the people who are satisfied with LEE dies in comparison to better brands and especially REDDING, probably don't possess the knowledge to know the difference.

[Scimmia]

I've never shaved a lead or plated round with the Carbide FCD so I have no idea what others are doing to create the problem. Several of the lead bullets were slightly oversize at 0.358"~0.359" so, riddle me this, Batman how does a an 0.376" die "swage down" a .358~.359" projectile exactly?

Who said anything about shaving? If the bullet is moving at this point, you're doing something very, very wrong. Shaving is a problem in the seater die if you don't expand enough or if you crimp too much *with the seater die*, a standalone crimp should have nothing to do with shaving.

As for how it swages it down, .359 + (.010 x 2) for the brass = .379. By running it through the die, you're deforming your bullet. If you can't run over 950 FPS without leading, I'd say you DO have a problem.

[wncchester]

"First off, I hold a degree in design/engineering technology..."

I presume that's a PHD?

[57K]

No and you've presumed too much already!

[wogpotter]

Who said anything about shaving? If the bullet is moving at this point, you're doing something very, very wrong.

You seem to have mis read the post utterly.
I do not have any problem with the FCD. Others have wittered on about it shaving lead (there were even pictures of the shaved bullet).
The SLIDING (as in moving) collar was blamed, but not by me.
Here are some more actual measurements if that helps any.

The carbide die in the bottom of the die body measures 0.375" so that isn't going to contact any part of even an over sized .357 projectile.

The crimping (sliding) insert further up inside the die (this is the sliding sleeve that does the actual crimp forming) measures 0.376" at the wide (bottom) end & 0.358 at the to end above where the crimp is formed.

Measuring some projectiles from the bucket o’ boolitts I got gave the following results.
The Hornady JHP XTP’s measured 0.358”.
The PFPs were 0.357” dia.
The SWC’s were .3575” dis
The RN’s were .3595.
The DEWC’s went to .357 exactly.
Bear in mind I did not cast these & I don’t know what alloy was used or anything else about them. They came to me done & even lubed. If I had to guess I’d say they were a tad undersized for lead so that’s probably the cause of the leading I found.

Now lets look at the brass used.
Unsized it was 0.377” at the area where the cylindrical portion of the bullet would fit. The case walls measured a 0.010” so the I.D was 0.357”.

Sized & with a bullet seated, without running through the FCD it measured a 0.377 high & a .375 low.
Doing a fast bit of math the only one that would have the body diameter reduced art all would be the 0.377”, all others would simply have slipped in & out without any reforming at all.

Interestingly the body of the case below where the bullet is inserted measured a uniform .373” so I assume that’s the diameter created by the resizing die. Switching from the original RCBS die to the Dillon that dimension opens up a tad to .374”. Based on that I’d say if anything was under-sizing anything else it would be (surprise) the resizing die!

[Scimmia]

You seem to have mis read the post utterly.
I do not have any problem with the FCD. Others have wittered on about it shaving lead (there were even pictures of the shaved bullet).

Where? The only person in this thread that has mentioned shaving is you, so no, I did not mis-read your post. You brought up shaving, nobody else. You brought it up as a straw man argument and it's completely inapplicable here.

The carbide die in the bottom of the die body measures 0.375" so that isn't going to contact any part of even an over sized .357 projectile.

And who ever said it would? It's the section of the bullet INSIDE the case that gets deformed. This is common sense.

Sized & with a bullet seated, without running through the FCD it measured a 0.377 high & a .375 low.
Doing a fast bit of math the only one that would have the body diameter reduced art all would be the 0.377”, all others would simply have slipped in & out without any reforming at all.

So even with your specific cases, you admit that the FCD is deforming some of your bullets. Other cases can be thicker, resulting in even more deformation.

Interestingly the body of the case below where the bullet is inserted measured a uniform .373” so I assume that’s the diameter created by the resizing die. Switching from the original RCBS die to the Dillon that dimension opens up a tad to .374”. Based on that I’d say if anything was under-sizing anything else it would be (surprise) the resizing die!

How did you come to this conclusion? It's not like the case itself is squeezing down diameter of the bullet. All these measurement tell you is how much neck tension you have holding the bullet.

[wogpotter]

Please actually READ the posts.
There were discussions in the linked thread about bullet shaving & there were pictures of the lead shaved off the bullet & smeared down the outside of the brass case.

[Real Gun]

It's not like the case itself is squeezing down diameter of the bullet.

Zero swaged bullets are soft, and the problem I was having with further swaging during reloading traced back to my sizing die. When I switched to lead bullets, I forgot that I had mounted an EGW U-Die, which is .001 undersized, even for .451 jacketed/plated bullets. I switched to a standard diameter die and things improved. I ultimately treated myself to the premium Redding sizer with a two stage function, which does not force the case body to be the diameter that supports the bullet. Same difference as far as case tension on the bullet.

[bamacisa]

I use the Lee Crimp Die on my lead reloads. I have had no problems from using this die. Some times a round would not chamber in my revolver, using the LFC die solved that problem. I have not noticed any difference in the accuracy of rounds loaded using the FCD. This is my experience using the FCD, your experience may differ. I reloaded for twenty years before using the FCD. If you adjust your crimp die correctly, you don't really need the FDC. Using different brands of cases can cause crimping problems. In this case, the FDC die will help. I mainly load 38's and do not load hot. I use the seating die for proper bullet length and then I crimp using the FCD. I have not noticed any increase in leading.