SAA clones: BP style frame or smokeless frame?

Poodleshooter · December 9, 2014, 01:18 AM

In a recent epiphany, I realized that no one prior to 1896 was releasing their 1873 Colt base pin by pushing in a retaining pin. So now, I'm hankering for a more cowboy authentic BP style frame and a bullseye ejector, albeit of the Uberti variety. From a shootability standpoint, what are the downsides to the old screw retained base pins and full circle ejectors in a modern clone? This would be in .45 Colt of course.... Also, as a sidebar, why don't we see more of these in SASS, given that they're slightly more period correct for the old west?

Bootsie · December 9, 2014, 05:07 AM

I am shooting a pair of BP frame Ubertis since 2006 in CAS activities.
Caliber is .44 Special, however and I only shoot them with .44 Colt cartridges because that's what I use in my lever guns as well.
These SAAs came with 2 screws each to fix the arbor, a. big head one that is functional but looks funny, and the period correct one that I am using exclusively.
The potential problem area here is the 2nd notch - safety notch - of the arbor.
The full circle ejector heads as opposed to the half moon sized ones are nice and never broke despite all the holster drills that are part of the sport.
Prior to using this pair I used a 2 Uberti SAAs in .45 Colt with the "nitro" frame. They gave me no problems, either.
FWIW due to the light smokeless loads used in the sport I am feeling "safer" with the smaller sized .44 Colt cases, however and the .44 cal. pistols balance as well as the .45 cal. ones.
Bootsie aka Long Johns Wolf

Hawg · December 9, 2014, 07:19 AM

I too prefer the bp frame with he slotted screw. I got around the second notch problem with the arbor by grinding the back of it off until it fit correctly. It also looks correct now. Before when it was in the firing position there was too much of it showing.

bedbugbilly · December 9, 2014, 08:27 AM

I have had a Uberti Bisley (357) for several months now and really like it - not the BP frame but for what I shoot, it's fine as I do both BP and Smokeless out of it. I have absolutely no complaints about the revolver at all . . BUT . . if I had to find fault with one thing, it would be that #$@%%$ two groove cylinder pin. So far, I've "left it be" but I think Hawg's solution is a good one in terms of modifications to it. I realize it's a "safety feature" but to me, it's more of a PIA than anything else. Other than that minor issue, I love mine and would have no problem buying either frame style.

Driftwood Johnson · December 9, 2014, 01:50 PM

Howdy

I have 2 2nd Gen Colts, 2 1st Gens, and one Uberti Cattleman. I have never felt inauthentic using the spring loaded catch, rather than the Black Powder frame, which first appeared on some target models as early as 1892. The Cattleman came with the silly 2 groove pin, I replaced it with a Belt Mountain pin. I have never wanted a Black Powder frame, despite the fact that I shoot nothing but Black Powder in CAS, because I did not want to be messing with a screwdriver to remove my cylinders.

Poodleshooter · December 9, 2014, 03:46 PM

That's the beauty of the Uberti BP frame clones...they give you a thumbscrew for use and an authentic flush screw. Definitely plan to cut my base pin. Far too easy to push it in too far during a match, based on use of my dad's Cattleman.
My thought was that the BP style frame would also reduce accidentally setting the safety while shooting.

45 Dragoon · December 9, 2014, 08:42 PM

I agree with Hawgs solution. I always cut them down to fit "right". The ASM I had was the same way. My newest Mod. P clone ( El Patron Comp. with a 5 1/2" tube) has a safety block that deploys when the hammer is in the "safe" position. I like that set up very much and am comfortable carrying six.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

James K · December 9, 2014, 08:49 PM

IIRC, base pins of the modern "BP" frames have a groove all the way around and so line up fairly easily. The originals didn't, having the notch for the screw in only one place so the pin had to be aligned with the screw before pushing it in, a bit or a pain.

Jim

Poodleshooter · December 9, 2014, 11:05 PM

Good tip James. I didn't know that about the originals. The new BP frame Ubertis must use the same extended length base pin as the smokeless frame style.

One older gent from my gun club commented that under a lifetime of relatively stouter loads, the base pin retaining screw could become slightly peened, and very difficult to unscrew/remove.

Has anyone experienced this with an SAA clone?

Hunter Customs · December 15, 2014, 08:56 AM

Quote:

One older gent from my gun club commented that under a lifetime of relatively stouter loads, the base pin retaining screw could become slightly peened, and very difficult to unscrew/remove.

I have two Uberti SA revolvers, one is a model P-OM, I've heard this gun referred to as the black powder frame.
It has the screw to keep the base pin in place instead of the spring loaded latch.

I don't know what a life time of stout loads would be, but I have over 7000 stout loads ( what some call tier two loads) through mine and the screw shows no ill effects.
I can still remove the retaining screw if needed, however I don't I just unscrew it far enough to remove the base pin.

My other Uberti is a Bisley model with the spring loaded latch.
I wished it had the screw retaining system that my model P-OM does.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

December 9, 2014, 01:18 AM	#1
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	SAA clones: BP style frame or smokeless frame? In a recent epiphany, I realized that no one prior to 1896 was releasing their 1873 Colt base pin by pushing in a retaining pin. So now, I'm hankering for a more cowboy authentic BP style frame and a bullseye ejector, albeit of the Uberti variety. From a shootability standpoint, what are the downsides to the old screw retained base pins and full circle ejectors in a modern clone? This would be in .45 Colt of course.... Also, as a sidebar, why don't we see more of these in SASS, given that they're slightly more period correct for the old west?

December 9, 2014, 08:27 AM	#4
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	I have had a Uberti Bisley (357) for several months now and really like it - not the BP frame but for what I shoot, it's fine as I do both BP and Smokeless out of it. I have absolutely no complaints about the revolver at all . . BUT . . if I had to find fault with one thing, it would be that #$@%%$ two groove cylinder pin. So far, I've "left it be" but I think Hawg's solution is a good one in terms of modifications to it. I realize it's a "safety feature" but to me, it's more of a PIA than anything else. Other than that minor issue, I love mine and would have no problem buying either frame style. __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

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December 9, 2014, 05:07 AM	#2
Bootsie Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2007 Location: Hofheim/Germany Posts: 102	I am shooting a pair of BP frame Ubertis since 2006 in CAS activities. Caliber is .44 Special, however and I only shoot them with .44 Colt cartridges because that's what I use in my lever guns as well. These SAAs came with 2 screws each to fix the arbor, a. big head one that is functional but looks funny, and the period correct one that I am using exclusively. The potential problem area here is the 2nd notch - safety notch - of the arbor. The full circle ejector heads as opposed to the half moon sized ones are nice and never broke despite all the holster drills that are part of the sport. Prior to using this pair I used a 2 Uberti SAAs in .45 Colt with the "nitro" frame. They gave me no problems, either. FWIW due to the light smokeless loads used in the sport I am feeling "safer" with the smaller sized .44 Colt cases, however and the .44 cal. pistols balance as well as the .45 cal. ones. Bootsie aka Long Johns Wolf

December 9, 2014, 07:19 AM	#3
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I too prefer the bp frame with he slotted screw. I got around the second notch problem with the arbor by grinding the back of it off until it fit correctly. It also looks correct now. Before when it was in the firing position there was too much of it showing.

December 9, 2014, 01:50 PM	#5
Driftwood Johnson Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Location: Land of the Pilgrims Posts: 2,033	Howdy I have 2 2nd Gen Colts, 2 1st Gens, and one Uberti Cattleman. I have never felt inauthentic using the spring loaded catch, rather than the Black Powder frame, which first appeared on some target models as early as 1892. The Cattleman came with the silly 2 groove pin, I replaced it with a Belt Mountain pin. I have never wanted a Black Powder frame, despite the fact that I shoot nothing but Black Powder in CAS, because I did not want to be messing with a screwdriver to remove my cylinders.

December 9, 2014, 03:46 PM	#6
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	That's the beauty of the Uberti BP frame clones...they give you a thumbscrew for use and an authentic flush screw. Definitely plan to cut my base pin. Far too easy to push it in too far during a match, based on use of my dad's Cattleman. My thought was that the BP style frame would also reduce accidentally setting the safety while shooting.

December 9, 2014, 08:42 PM	#7
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	I agree with Hawgs solution. I always cut them down to fit "right". The ASM I had was the same way. My newest Mod. P clone ( El Patron Comp. with a 5 1/2" tube) has a safety block that deploys when the hammer is in the "safe" position. I like that set up very much and am comfortable carrying six. Mike www.goonsgunworks.com

December 9, 2014, 08:49 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	IIRC, base pins of the modern "BP" frames have a groove all the way around and so line up fairly easily. The originals didn't, having the notch for the screw in only one place so the pin had to be aligned with the screw before pushing it in, a bit or a pain. Jim

December 9, 2014, 11:05 PM	#9
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	Good tip James. I didn't know that about the originals. The new BP frame Ubertis must use the same extended length base pin as the smokeless frame style. One older gent from my gun club commented that under a lifetime of relatively stouter loads, the base pin retaining screw could become slightly peened, and very difficult to unscrew/remove. Has anyone experienced this with an SAA clone?