Could you squeeze the trigger?

[Mikeyboy]

You guys watch too many movies. Again my take was the guy has an assault rifle, unless your close, it is stupid to take the shot or somehow sneak up on him. This is what I'm seeing....I hear the rata ta ta of automatic fire I'm telling the wife and kid, GO OUT THE EMERGENCY EXIT, I'LL TAKE CARE OF THIS!!! (again wife and kid could get shot or trampled, but they can take care of themselves). Let's say the shooter is 100 yard down from your position, you bravely try to get a better position and A) get blasted at 50 yard because you left your Ninja outfit at home and your the only schmuck moving toward the shooter and not running away or ducking for cover, but hey you died bravely, and so did the little kids who were hiding near your position, actually they died because you wanted to play cop. B) You get close enough to shoot and man what a cool gunfight it is, so cool that the police don't know who to shoot first, so they shoot you both.

Again I have no problem with taking the shot if the guy is near me (10 yards or less with a clear shot) or threatening my family. Leave the responding to a shooting on the other end of the mall to the professionals. My first priority is to my family.

[azredhawk44]

+1 Mikeyboy.

[DonR101395]

Quote:
Not trying to start an argument or flame anyone here, but I saw some wishy washy answers.

Let me correct your misconception sir. I know without a doubt that I have the will to take a life. I know because I have done it.

Quote:
Nobody knows how they will react in a situation, but if you stumble into a situation doubting yourself that may be the last doubt you have.

Only a fool would make his mind up how he will act before he ever enters a conflict. There are some who place a lot of faith in their ability to hit what they must with a handgun, under extreme stress and against a rifleman.


Xavier,
I think you misunderstood what I wrote/meant. Confidence does not equal machismo, confidence equals training and practice and knowing you have maintained your skills to deal with stressful situations. The meaning of the above statement was that if don't have confidence in your ability to react to a sitiation you should evaluate carrying a weapon. By react I don't mean every situation is a shoot situation. If a person is going to arm themselves they need to be able to react and decide if the situation is a reason to pull or not pull their weapon, shoot or no shoot situation, is it more prudent to take concealment and wait for a shot, is it more prudent to evacuate the area if possible. The only way to do this is with training and practice. You're correct in that only a fool would make up his mind that ,I will do this each time and this will be the bad guys reaction, it don't work like that. The fool is the guy who doesn't evaluate his surroundings and have situational awareness of concealment, cover, exits and possible crazies. I spend a fair amount of time in places that Americans aren't liked (some of the time without a firearm) evaluating my surroundings and keeping good SA has become habit.

[USP45usp]

DonR101395

To do quotes do this:

[*Quote*]Do this but take out the *'s[*/Quote*]

Will help place your case .

Wayne

[DonR101395]

thanks USP I've been trying to figure out how this board works for doing quotes. I keep having to cut and paste.

[John28226]

To USP45, since you referred to me by name I will answer you. I am 68; been through a considerable amount of "stress training"; know better than to shoot into a crowd or when the "downrange" is not safe for misses: have never been forced to kill anyone; have drawn my gun and been prepared to do so more than once; been on the scene of several murders; walked a beat and drove a patrol car; spent a few years as an investigator; am no great shot but I did win the man against man shootoff (with a Model 25 revolver against the semi-autos) at Gunsite when Col. Cooper was still actively teaching; came home with the only "E" ticket awarded there. And yes, that was a few years ago and, while never great, I certainly am not as good now!

The question, as I understood it was, "could you squeeze the trigger?" I hope I answered the question asked originally and perhaps I have answered your questions also?

You can "what if" it to death or you can conjure up all sorts of extenuating circumstances (like Mikeyboy) that change the situation or validate your own opinions. You can confuse cover with concealment or paint a picture of a place you have not seen, but in the final analysis you will do what YOU think is the best thing at the time. And you will live (or perhaps die) with that decision.

While I hope that none of my loved ones are ever in harms way I also hope that if they are and I am not there to protect them that someone like Model 25 (and a few others) are.

I said earlier that I was not going to impugn anyone's motives or courage and I will stick by that statement. I do think, however, that setting up strawmen so you can knock them down is counterproductive. On Thanksgiving Day, perhaps it is appropriate to quote the famous words of Pricilla, "Speak for yourself..."

John
Charlotte, NC

[azurefly]

Originally Posted by mikeyboy

but hey you died bravely, and so did the little kids who were hiding near your position, actually they died because you wanted to play cop.

Actually, if kids die, it's because there was a guy who came to the mall to shoot people -- NOT because I or someone else attempted to STOP that shooter. Don't go saying that just because we make an attempt to end the killing by opposing and shooting the murderer that we are responsible for what HE does if he notices us and comes our way before we're able to "sneak up on him."

It's well past the time where it's valid to say that I would have provided the "bait" that drew him to the kids.
IT IS UNKNOWABLE whether he would have found the hiding kids even if I were not "playing cop."

That said, I do agree with the latter part of your post where you said you would take the shot if it were clear, and within 10 yards, but not if the guy were way down the other side of the mall. I AGREE that it would be pretty stupid to go all SWAT-like down the mall when you really don't have to, aren't trained to, and may well look like the murderer when any cops decide to show up. (But possibly, you'd get lucky and they'd be waiting outside for the shooting to stop, and you'd get to be the hero who did what the cops refused to do! )

But really, leaving should be the first priority to anyone whose job and responsibility is not to stop the criminal. If there is a back exit in the store, there is no good excuse for going out the front when that's where you heard the gunfire coming from. Get your defensive firearm ready to deploy (don't necessarily hold it in your hand, because you're going outside now where the cops might be waiting), and EXIT if you can. Hopefully others who can exit are doing so as well. Having a gun does not mean you must now be their shepherd.


-azurefly

[XavierBreath]

Shooting victim at mall drew gun, family says

The man who was critically wounded during Sunday's shooting rampage at Tacoma Mall drew a pistol and confronted the gunman before he was cut down by gunfire, his family said Tuesday.

Brendan "Dan" McKown was delivering a bank deposit for a mall gift store when gunshots scattered shoppers at around noon. McKown was among six people hit.

Police say Dominick Sergio Maldonado, 20, of Tacoma, marched through the mall shooting randomly at shoppers before taking four hostages in a Sam Goody music store. He surrendered about four hours later.

Witnesses told McKown's family that he was shot after he pulled his own handgun during the shooting.

"Our understanding is that Dan drew his weapon and confronted the gunman," his stepmother, Beverly McKown, said during a news conference Tuesday at Tacoma General Hospital.

McKown, 38, was shot twice in the abdomen and may have suffered permanent paralysis due to spinal damage, said hospital spokesman Todd Kelley. McKown was being brought out of a medically induced coma Tuesday. The other shooting victims were treated at hospitals and released.

Tacoma police confirmed that McKown had a gun, but spokesman Mark Fulghum said there was no evidence that gunshots were fired by anyone other than Maldonado, who faces numerous criminal charges. Police also could not confirm whether there was a confrontation between the two men before McKown was shot.

Maldonado is being held in the Pierce County Jail on $2 million bail.

McKown's father, Roger McKown, said his son has a permit to carry a handgun, which he did not out of fear but because "he always believed in protecting people."

"I'm proud of my son," Roger McKown said. "I think he's a hero."

McKown, a Tacoma resident who is an assistant manager at Excalibur Cutlery and Gifts at Tacoma Mall, was on his way to make a bank deposit when he was shot, his father and stepmother said.

The McKowns, of Yelm, Thurston County, described their bachelor son as a look-alike of late-night TV host Conan O'Brien, with a great sense of humor, a passion for photography and a deep Christian faith.

They said that while they are worried he may be paralyzed for life, they are certain McKown's faith will sustain him.

The Dan McKown Medical Fund, set up to help offset McKown's expenses, has been established through the Bank of America. Donations may be made at any Bank of America branch, the family said.

The McKowns, who are active in prison ministries in part because Roger McKown spent some time behind bars years ago for his own "bad choices," said they have been praying nonstop for their son and for Maldonado.

"We are not angry," said Beverly McKown. "We are praying for Dan and we are praying for this boy. God is a healer."

Police on Tuesday were still trying to determine how Maldonado, a convicted felon, had obtained the two weapons he allegedly carried into the mall. The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives was helping Tacoma detectives trace the history of the weapons, Fulghum said.

Meanwhile, authorities responded to reports that Maldonado's actions may have been related, in part, to harassment he claimed he received at the hands of police during a youth summer camp several years ago.

While he was holding hostages in the music store, Maldonado demanded a personal apology from three police officers he said had humiliated him as a child, Tacoma police said. Joe Hudson, one of the four hostages, said Maldonado claimed he had been humiliated at the summer camp and treated "like a prisoner."

One officer named by Maldonado was asked to come to the scene of Sunday's shooting spree and did arrive at the mall but never spoke to the Tacoma man, said Pierce County deputy prosecutor Phil Sorensen.

Maldonado wanted an apology for being made to sing at a summer youth camp run by law-enforcement volunteers, Sorensen said. "Apparently, one thing you do [at camp] is sing a song and, apparently, that didn't go over too well," he said. "That was his recitation of what the issue was."

According to charging papers filed by Sorensen, Maldonado claimed "he had suffered humiliation and difficulties during his childhood and that recent emotional events and a desire to want to be 'heard' led ... to the shooting." It was unclear what other events in Maldonado's life may have led up to the shooting.

Tiffany Robison, who dated Maldonado for about six months, said Maldonado told her the same story.

"It upset him a lot, but I don't know why it did," she said of the summer-camp incident. "There's nothing else to it — the whole situation just really upset him," she said.

For more than 10 years, Pierce County sheriff's Detective Ed Troyer was a counselor at the weeklong Law Enforcement Youth Camp, held every year since the 1980s at the Sunset Lake Camp in eastern Pierce County.

Officers each brought three or four youngsters, usually runaways or kids from disadvantaged homes who otherwise wouldn't get a chance to go to summer camp, he said.

Maldonado was 12 when he attended the camp in 1997 and became the first kid in the camp's history to be sent home early, Troyer said. "He cried and cried from the moment he arrived. He refused to participate, and he wanted to go home," he said. On the second day of camp, Troyer said, Maldonado tried to run away.

"He was so disruptive and he was scaring the other kids, so we had to bring him home," Troyer said.

As for being made to sing, Troyer said everybody — including police officers — had to sing at camp, but never by themselves. In fact, the cook wouldn't let anyone into the dining hall unless they sang for their meals, he said.

Sorensen said "it's kind of a stretch" to think something that happened to Maldonado in the fifth grade could have precipitated Sunday's violence.

Sara Jean Green: 206-515-5654 or [email protected]

Copyright © 2005 The Seattle Times Company

[XavierBreath]

Dad Calls Son in Mall Shooting a Hero

TACOMA, Wash. -- The father of the man most seriously wounded in a shooting rampage at a shopping mall called his son a hero Tuesday for drawing a pistol and confronting the gunman before being shot.

Brendan "Dan" McKown, 38, was hit twice in the abdomen Sunday, when a gunman opened fire on crowds in the Tacoma Mall before ducking into a store and taking several hostages. The gunman later surrendered and the hostages were released unharmed.

Roger McKown, 63, of Yelm, said his son has been licensed to carry a firearm for years.

"Dan has been one that always believes in protecting other people, and he put his life on the line for other people," he said at a hospital news conference.

He said his son encountered the shooter while delivering a bank deposit from the gift store where he works as assistant manager.

"He heard the shooting, and before he could ever take a defensive mode or anything, it was right there," Roger McKown said.

Police spokesman Mark Fulghum said detectives don't know if McKown simply brandished his handgun to show the gunman he was armed, or if he was preparing to fire the weapon. Witnesses told the family McKown was shot after he pulled the gun.

Doctors at Tacoma General Hospital believe McKown may have suffered permanent paralysis because of spinal damage, hospital spokesman Todd Kelley said. Five other people wounded in the shooting have been released.

Dominick Maldonado, 20, of Tacoma, pleaded not guilty Monday to assault, kidnapping and firearms charges for Sunday's shooting. He was being held on $2 million bail.

[Twycross]

Let's see, I gotta come up with a good reason for my shooting spree that will make me look like the real victim. Oh, I remember! They made me sing a song at camp that summer that I was 12! That will explain it all!


[sarcasm]Very convincing[/sarcasm].

[USP45usp]

John,

I was just in disagreement, nothing more, nothing less.

I have many things that I wish to say, to post, not to attack but to bring up some of the things that you have recently posted, but I won't.

I just take this as a agree to disagree stand off.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family .

Wayne

[Supertac]

I would engage if I had any oportunity to. I've discussed it with my wife before as well. Some people have different personalities, different abilities, different paralizing fears. I am one who will risk my life so that one innocent will not be killed. Furthermore, I want to die defending someone else's life. I don't want to die of old age. Am I crazy? Maybe just a little. That's me, that's who I am, that's what would happen.

[FLA2760]

Hi
Every situation is indeed different. Are you alone or with loved ones? IS THE SHOOTER ALONE; OR IS THERE MORE THAN ONE SHOOTER? What about bystanders? My take on this is if I am there and able to take him out I would. No bravado just a rational decision. If my loved ones were with me I would want to stop him EVEN MORE. The innocent bystanders are not going to be in ANYMORE danger than they already are IMO. Understand this there would be no" hey Mr. mall shooter I am a CCW holder and I have my gun on you" I would try to get as close as possible utilizing available cover/concealment without announcing anything and blow his head off...preferably at contact range. Mindset and training is key. Musing over situations such as this and all the "what if's" we ponder is an important part of this. Shot placement cannot be overstated!

[Powderman]

Yes.

Would I have shot in this case?

Again, yes. Repeatedly. Prefereably from an ambush position.

With a BG like this, challenging is something best left to TV and books. You engage immediately, without warning and without hesitation.

Could I make a 25 yard precision shot?

This is the precise reason I carry the gun I do for duty and off-duty carry--a Colt Gov't Model, enhanced version.

It is also the reason one part of my practice regimen includes active participation in NRA Conventional Pistol--also known as bullseye shooting.

I mentioned that in another thread on another board, and was immediately jumped on because "IDPA/IPSC is much more practical".

Well, I might be "unrealistic"--but I believe that the ability to put a round into a 1.69 inch circle at 50 yards on demand is quite helpful.

Thus, this is what I would have done: Assuming that my wife was with me, we have an understanding. As soon as ANYTHING goes south, she knows to GET AWAY FROM ME IMMEDIATELY, and to find cover. In the case of Tacoma Mall, if I were behind the shooter, he would have received at least two rounds of RA45T--COM, right in the back. If that did not do the trick, or failed to get his attention, the next one would be in the back of the head.

If the guy is headed in my direction, seek cover in one of the doorways of the shops there, and engage from a supported position.

Standing there and doing nothing is NOT an option.

From what I understand, the man who confronted the shooter HAD HIM AT GUNPOINT--but then, for whatever reason, did NOT shoot when he had the chance.

I will say, though, that this man--who remains in the hospital as we speak and may be a paraplegic for the rest of his life--did what he could. He stood in the breach when others were running. God bless and keep him, and let's all pray for a full recovery.

[swmike]

Not all the facts are public yet but it appears that one who hesitates becomes a victim.

[Powderman]

There were actually 3 or more armed citizens in the mall when the shooting started. At least one was an off duty cop. They all did the right thing. Got the loved ones and themselves to safety. Not long after, on duty cops with long guns and vests were on the scene.

If this is the case, and I was their chief, I would have their badges for cowardice. Period.

When you take the oath and wear the badge, you take on the mantle of being the sheepdog. And, little idiots like the shooter are the EXACT reason you, as an officer, carry your firearm and credentials off duty.

And as far as them doing the right thing--maybe. Yes, get your family out of harm's way.

And right after you do that, you quickly tell your wife that you love her, pray that Almighty God will smile on you that day, draw your sidearm, grab your gravitas and man the &*%! up, and GET BACK IN THERE AND DO YOUR JOB, DOG GONE IT!!!

IF THERE WAS AN OFF DUTY OFFICER ANYWHERE NEAR THE SHOOTER WHO DID NOT TAKE THIS GUY DOWN IMMEDIATELY, THEY SHOULD BEAR THE FULL COST OF THE WOUNDED MAN'S CARE, FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE!! THEY SHOULD BE BRANDED AS RANK COWARDS AND FIRED FORTHWITH. SHAME!! SHAME!!! SHAME!!!

I guarantee that if I had been in the mall that day, I would have sent my wife to safety quickly.

And in that situation--unless I was ambushed--I would engage that little SCUMBAG until he was no longer a threat. That is what I am SWORN to do--to PROTECT and SERVE, and I will do so to my dying breath. That little SOB would have gone down, even with the last movement of my trigger finger with me flat on the floor!

A cop that ran....cowards!

Signed with sadness, and pride for the man who stood in the breach so that everyone else could RUN AWAY--and who paid a terrible price--my prayers are with you, brother. Please get well. For those on this board, when you get a chance say a prayer and lift a glass to that guy. There stands a MAN, ladies and gentlemen!

[RochPersDef]

"..be sure of your target, what is beyond it and in front of it....."

One of my four 'set in concrete' safety rules.

To echo what most are saying, without having been in the exact situation described, I canonly offer what I would LIKE TO THINK I would have done. Pull the trigger? Hell yes, as long as I did what I could to ensure that no one else would get hurt or be put in harm's way by my re-action to the incident.

Those of us that train and learn all this stuff are looked at as the sheepdogs of the world by the sheeple. Wh have to be ready to step up to the plate when we are called on. No hesitation, no worry. Make sure your sheep are safe and then, TAKE OUT THE THREAT.

[RochPersDef]

AZREDHAWK: I love the statement:

Then again, a woman that can shoot is by default a 7 out of 10 before you even get to looks or brains...


In my book.......6 outof 10 if she is not afraid of them, 7 out of 10 if she can shoot, 8 out of 10 if she shoots damn well and can offer cover fire...!!!!!

[Mikeyboy]

+1 for Powderman...yes if your an off duty cop that changes thing. Its your job to get the bad guy. That cop should be fired. What I'm concerned about is untrained yahoos with their CW thinking they can play cop. Unless the guy is near you, our your family is threatened, you will only make matter worse if go looking for the shooter if you NOT in LE.

[spacemanspiff]

Picturing Spiff, stuck in a vent, feet dangling through the ceiling... almost made me soil myself

pssshawwwwww!!! you all are so untactical it hurts. thats my secret plan! thanks for blowing my whole strategy! but you fail to realize that real ninjas rapel down head first, with weapon already lowered. i'd have like, at least a 135 degree field of fire from my intentionally stuck position. plus i can toss my empty mags at the Tango and maybe give him a really bad bruise.

have you ever seen a fat guy rappel anyways? we turn almost any rope into a bungee cord.

[spacemanspiff]

because everyone on TFL gets 3 inch groups at 50yds even when rifle rounds are whizzing past their head.

whoa. whoa! whoa whoa whoa! stop the presses, hold the phone, wait 30 minutes after eating before swimming. are you saying i might be sustaining rifle fire while i am trying to shoot the bad guys? theres no drill at the range to prepare for that!

this is heavy, man. i gotta rethink this whole 'carry for personal protection thing'.

[stratus]

Originally Posted by spacemanspiff

whoa. whoa! whoa whoa whoa! stop the presses, hold the phone, wait 30 minutes after eating before swimming. are you saying i might be sustaining rifle fire while i am trying to shoot the bad guys? theres no drill at the range to prepare for that!

this is heavy, man. i gotta rethink this whole 'carry for personal protection thing'.

Members, take note of this. This is PROPER sarcasm!

Seriously though, spiff has a point. Not everyone that carries is an ex-member of Delta Force. Why do some people on these boards imply that we have to be? I think most of us acknowledge that real-world situations are not drills, and that there's very little that can prepare you for such a situation except prior experience. However, a majority of people don't have a lot of experience dealing with shooters in malls unless it is their job to put themselves in the way of these people and neutralize them (SWAT, etc). You can train all you like, but if you're ever there and faced with that kind of situation, weighing your choices suddenly becomes much harder, let alone shooting accurately while under stress and taking fire. That said, if I was absolutely sure of my target, and reasonably sure that no one else would get hurt as a result of my intervention, I'd feel morally compelled to open fire on the guy. It would not be about ego, or wanting to be a hero. I just wouldn't like seeing other people get shot when I knew I could do something about it (note that I said "if I was absolutely sure of my target," this is an important point).

Exception: If any of my loved ones were there, my first priority would be to get them to safety. Period.

[Neal in GA]

I haven't read this whole thread, but yes, I know I could squeeze the trigger if the time came. It almost came a few years back. I was all of .5lbs of trigger pressure away from shooting a guy that decided at the last minute his baseball bat wasn't an even match for my S&W.

[marmark]

After surviving an encounter with an armed bg to save a small child, I would have to say YES!! It was before my 21st birthday and no WEAPONS! A drugged out bg was going after a 8YO down syndrome child and I stepped in between them. Other people looked to their families first, right or wrong, I dunno. But if I hadn't stepped in there, there would have been one dead little girl. Personal sacrifice never entered into my mind before doing something. I knew what I had to do and did it.

Could I pull the trigger on some perp in a mall shooting people. You betcha. Personal sacrifice generally doesn't enter your mind when thrust into the center of a situation.

[CyberSEAL]

OK. The rumour around is that a CCW armed citizen was in the Tacoma, WA mall.

Please substantiate this "rumor" before the thread gets locked by a mod...