December 19, 2004, 07:54 PM | #1 |
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Shootout In Hollywood
Does anyone recall that shootout in Hollywood, California in 1997? In case you dont, here's what occured:
Several men wearing kevlar body armor from head to toe and armed with fully automatic AK-47's and several semi-auto hunting rifles robbed a bank in california, and took people inside the bank hostage, shooting at officers and helicopters. To make the story short, no officers or civilians were killed, and the bad guys were all killed. Just curious, if you were one of those L.A.P.D officers that day, what would u have done? Let's assume you were armed with only a 9mm handgun and had a cell phone, and there was a nearby gun store. What would you have done different that day, or would you do the same thing they did? |
December 19, 2004, 08:05 PM | #2 |
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I'd have done what the officers present did. They did everything they could given the situation, their training, and the emotional impact of having ineffective weaponry against such a superior force.
Now assuming I can play 'what if' scenarios which ignore the fact that I'd have been scared s***less... I'd have started trying to hit their AKs or their heads in order to disable their arms or give them concussions...
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December 19, 2004, 08:14 PM | #3 |
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There were armored vehicles present (one was even used, but not aggressively) at the scene.
I'd have tried to run the idiots down. Kevlar doesn't stop trucks. Vehicles often are the BEST available weapons, but it takes an open mind to think of them that way. Larry
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December 19, 2004, 08:21 PM | #4 | |
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Quote:
Please correct me if I'm wrong though.
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December 19, 2004, 08:45 PM | #5 |
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Yes, I believe there was in fact a Brinks armored car present, however even with its level of protection I seriously doubt it could go up against
.308 armor-piercing rounds. Besides, the BG's could of shot out the tires. |
December 19, 2004, 09:51 PM | #6 |
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The main problem (and little-known fact) with those guys was that (and I say this with a tear) they were former USMC Infantry. They were trained for this type of situation, so to speak. It was (and probably still is) a set back for the USMC, but it does prove intensity of training. Also, as a side note, Lee Harvey Oswald was USMC as well.
But don't hold our current Marines down because of the psychotic few in the past.
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December 19, 2004, 09:54 PM | #7 |
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They'd still run far enough without tires to get the job done.
But I don't know I'd have done anything different then they did - tough to armchair quarterback after the fact. In the situation, I'd have known no more than they - Belly up the the gunstore boys! Make mine an AR...
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December 19, 2004, 10:00 PM | #8 |
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Are you sure the criminals were ex-military, I thought they were eastern europeans, they might have had citizenship, but they had lengthy criminal records.
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December 19, 2004, 10:01 PM | #9 |
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CW, the armored vehicles present were from AT Systems, my company. The crew was running their route like any other day when they ran into the shootout. It was pretty cool to see one of our trucks rolling down the road being used as an armored medivac. Why they didn't use it to crush the badguys is open for discourse.
Got to see pics of the interior a few years ago. Bags of coin/cash. Lots of blood. Don't know if the PD kicked the crew off of the truck or if our guys operated the vehicle while the cops ran around getting wounded.
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December 19, 2004, 10:14 PM | #10 |
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According to the documentary I saw just the other day.
The AT crew drove the vehicle into the fray to extract the officers and civilians. They also showed video of the BGs shooting at the cops. I don't think all of the weapons were full auto. I swear I could see one guy's finger moving and forearm flexing with each shot and the shots were coming to slow to be full auto. Yes the videos were that close and clear. Alot of people good and bad showed alot of guts that day
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December 19, 2004, 10:30 PM | #11 |
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Evil documentries... They lied...
That being said, I think they also had a G3, Joab.
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December 19, 2004, 11:35 PM | #12 | |||||||
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Radio calls went out early describing the fact that the bad guys had "heavy" body armor and to shoot for the head. They tried. For the vast majority of the time, they failed in this task. Keep in mind that shots were being fired with pistols usually from distances something like 50-80 yards to as much as 120 yards. LAPD did not train their officers for making head shots at those ranges with pistols. Sadly, while shotguns were present and could have made the shot with slugs, nobody had any slugs. I don't know if they had anything larger than bird shot in the shotguns. If so, they still managed to not be able to deliver head shots. Bird shot, obviously, wasn't going to be great for stopping the bad guys at distance. Quote:
"According to Commander Scott LaChasse of the Los Angeles Police Department's (LAPD) Criminal Intelligence Group and Lt. Tom Runyan, Commanding Officer of the LAPD SWAT, during the shootout at the bank, the suspects fired an estimated 1,110 rounds from three fully automatic AK-47s, a .223 fully automatic Bushmaster rifle, a .308 semiautomatic H&K and a semiautomatic 9mm Beretta handgun. - http://www.student.oulu.fi/~hmikkola/shootout.html Quote:
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December 19, 2004, 11:51 PM | #13 | |||
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December 20, 2004, 12:07 AM | #14 | |
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Somebody had to say it
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December 20, 2004, 02:35 AM | #15 | ||||
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DNS
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December 20, 2004, 10:08 AM | #16 |
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Sorry, I cry BS to these idiots being former Marines. Without any proof, without jack to back up that claim, don't post it.
I will say this: If you want a THOROUGH debriefing of the shooting/situation, without ANY of the hype and BS, go to Scott Reitz's Ultimate Tactical Course. My wife and I attended in February of this year. The team leader from the SWAT Team which responded, the guy in the video wearing shorts and shooting the bad guy, gave us a good debrief. Just food for thought: Don't believe everything you read and/or see on the internet, etc. Thin The Herd
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December 20, 2004, 02:56 PM | #17 | ||
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Cowled-Wolfe, if they could not hit the bad guys in the head, what makes you think they could hit the AK47s, or you for that matter?
I did like the part about giving the bad guys concussions. I didn't know you had that sort of control on your ammo. Yes, that is pretty naive. Quote:
Two guys are not a superior force over the entire LAPD. They were simply better able to make do with the circumstances than LAPD. Maybe you can come up with the data on this, but with the downed officers and bystanders, LAPD invested a lot of time and people into trying to effect rescues. That is very noble, but not necessarily strategically smart. Resources that could have been used to stop the gunmen were used to try to effect the rescues. The result? The gunmen were able to battle longer because many of the combatants that would have been involved in trying to stop them were doing rescue. Time that should have been used to figure out how to stop the bad guys by the commanders was put into trying to figure out how to implement rescues. It sucks from a strategic perspective, but our society puts more into saving good people than killing bad people. This incident was a classic example. Danindetroit, Yes, FMJ maybe new to the forums. So he got a full metal response. New or not, he has access to the same search key we all do. I thought Phillips was American. That is not ethnicity, but country. We are not talking genetics. I have no idea of either man's actual ethnicity. Location of birth does not determine ethnicity. If he isn't American, I haven't seen it posted anywhere else. Me, I don't care what ethnicity he was or was not. My statements were as to the robbers' background and military training. These guys were not military trained. I did not answer as I thought somebody else had, but both were arrested previously, at least in AZ, and managed to petition the court to get back their weapons (which apparently were not illegal Class III). Emil? Did you read the link I posted? I stated his background as I knew it. If you don't like the lectures, then look up the information yourself. While this was meant was an informative thread, what I saw was some fact being intermingled with a lot of garbage about the event. People were posting supposedly as to answer questions, but when stuff is just being made up or thrown out without verification, things go south really quick. As for addressing you as if you had diminished capacity, I did not, but I will leave you with this example of yours that made no sense. You appear to be linking a series of pseudo-related answers into one lot, but the punctuation doesn't jive. Quote:
I have no idea about your comments on .50 BMG penetrating an engine block. .50 BMG wasn't in play during the incident. My comments pertained to using an armored truck to run down the back guys. It does not take a whole lot to seize and engine and you don't have to use a .50 BMG to penetrate the block to do it. Once seized, you aren't running down anyone. You can stop an armored truck with a lot of calibers of gun. All that is necessary is penetration of the engine compartment and then damage to some of the key systems such as electrical and cooling. The little computers that run the engines don't stand up to much abuse at all.
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December 20, 2004, 03:21 PM | #18 |
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An engine can run a long time with a lot of damage. You risk losing the block. I am sure that armored truck builders have taken precautions to make sure the drivetrain of thier vehicle, can withstand punishment, or else you would just shoot it with a .300 win mag in the engine compartment, and be able to have your way with it. It seems to have been used to pick up injured officers very well.
Different oil coolers, can be used, with a redundant oiling system, I thought that some very high reving motorcycles, had oil that was splashed on the underside of the piston for added cooling. The engine can have fins so that it acctually can run without coolant for a wile, like the corvair with the boxer 6, and various european cars. Yes we can do a search, or look at a thread, but then we get the been there done that from people either way. You are not obligated to reply. Once again maybe FMJ does not want to read about the accounts, but discuss them with people, polite people. |
December 20, 2004, 03:38 PM | #19 | |
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December 20, 2004, 03:47 PM | #20 |
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On a normal car, but this is an armored bank delivery vehicle. On a big block chevy, a hit right in the v if it goes through and through on a chevelle, and misses the distributor, will not really affect the performance for a while, the metal, may get on the cam, I can't remember what a chevy looks like, I though you could get something that fit in the valley of the v. A cat diesel, that is a lot of steel just to get one cylinder to lose compression,and the block is usually sleeved, so no overboring, just slip in a new sleeve. Engines are very tough. How much steel can a .308 ap penetrate?
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December 20, 2004, 06:15 PM | #21 |
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"Sadly, while shotguns were present and could have made the shot with slugs, nobody had any slugs. I don't know if they had anything larger than bird shot in the shotguns."
I have no idea if this is true or not but it doesn't make much sense to me. Why would you have a shotgun to defend yourself and the lives of others and put birdshot in it and have no other backup options ammowise? I understand that they have to worry about overpenetration of the rounds but to not have buckshot or slugs at ALL is beyond me. Was this a policy for california police officers or something? I have 2 questions, 1. How many times were the BGs hit? 2. did the police ever try to flank the BGs and try for a closer headshot? The .308 they used was an hk91 BTW
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December 20, 2004, 07:15 PM | #22 | |
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I can't remeber which one surrendered, but he died later
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December 20, 2004, 09:28 PM | #23 |
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North Hollywood shootout...
That "documentary" had a LOT of holes in it... The BG's had both full auto and semi-auto weapons. They did not have AP rounds (contrary to published reports). I was working in the LA basin for the Gov't at that time and I watched it on TV that day in LA. I used to shoot with a lot of the LAPD and LASO folks down at a range in Torrence owned by a Torrence PD officer; and was concerned because I knew officers that were in NHD, RHD, and SWAT. FWIW I talked to the officer that made that shot on BG 1 (not a "self-inflicted wound as stated in the documentary)- He stated he was down to his last clip and "thought" he was down to his last round. He braced on a 6-8" tree he was "hiding" behind and took the shot from about 50-60 feet. He admitted he was surprised when the BG dropped. He basically said, "I figured I'd empty the clip then run like H... Most of the officers only had 3 clips of ammo and most shot them out, with no spares available.
The SWAT team was delayed by traffic and in fact, never got to the scene until after everything was over (there were multiple calls to airdeploy them, but all the helo's were tied up). I also talked to a SWAT officer (who I shot with and was a Nam vet and "knew" the sound of an AK of full auto) that made the shot from under the patrol car. He told us that they were told respond to scene , don't wait for the truck, so he responded in cutoff's and a t-shirt. He got there, threw on a vest, grabbed an M-16 and jumped in the front seat of the cruiser. They went in and he returned fire, then told us he couldn't figure out how he was going to get out of the right front seat, so he slid across on his back and flopped out on the driver's side. He realized he could see the BG's legs under the cars, so he took a shot and dropped the guy, then shot again (the second or sebsequent shot appearantly hit the Femoral artery, which caused the BG to bleed out). He also told us there was no way to get medical care to either BG, as they were still concerned there was a 3rd BG and all non-LE were being kept out of the area (which also delayed the EMS response to help the LEO's and civilians). FYI, the first in car has never been repaired, it is at the LAPD Police Academy and is used as a "training" tool now. It has over 400 holes in it, including quite a few that appear to be 9mm holes. One other major change was the issuance within a month of AR-15's to all patrol/shift Sgt's and TO's in both LAPD and LASO. We can armchair quarterback this to death, but we weren't there. I think the men and women of the LAPD did their best that day, considering how badly they were out gunned- They never gave up, overcame departmental interia and triumphed in the end. There were a lot of civilians (Gun shop owner, truck drivers, etc.) that never got ANY credit for their assist, however some of the officers took it on themselves to thank those who helped.
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December 20, 2004, 09:38 PM | #24 |
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"According to the documentary, one was shot 11 times and one was shot 29.
I can't remeber which one surrendered, but he died later" I've attended 2 briefings on the shootout. One was by the on scene commander and the other briefing was by the 2 detectives who conducted the investigation. I have the briefing notes from the commander. Some of the stats from his briefing notes: Phillips received 9 wounds, including the self-inflicted wound which entered under his chin and was probably the fatal wound. Matasareanu received 29 wounds. Over 550 rds were fired by officers and another 90+ rds were fired by SWAT. The subjects fired over 1100 rds. Officers' weapons were .38 revolvers, 9mm pistols, and Ithaca 12 ga shotguns with 00 Buck (not birdshot). Slugs were not authorized for carry. The subjects were armed with 3 fully auto AK-47; 1 fully auto .308 H&K; 1 fully auto Bushmaster; 1 Beretta 92F, over 2600 rds of ammo; and 1 IED consisting of 2 one gallon jars of gasoline. Weapons and ammo were retrieved from a nearby gunshop; however, none of those weapons were used during the shootout and no rounds were fired from those weapons. |
December 20, 2004, 09:56 PM | #25 | |
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Thanks I never knew that.
ISP2605 noted
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thanks, jim
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