I'm doing something wrong - need advice from veteran .30-30 cast reloaders

[Bluehighways]

Hello all, It's been a while since I actively posted here and I need some advice on what I may be doing wrong regarding cast bullet loads in my Marlin 336 .30-30

A bit of background first: I've been reloading .45acp, .30-30 and .308 for two years and my results have been satisfactory. I am now venturing into the realm of cast bullets (up until now I've only reloaded jacketed) and today was my first trip to the range with my new cast bullet loads. The results were less than satisfactory (although I didn't blow up the gun and came home with all my fingers and both eyes, so it could have been worse).

Attatched is a photo of a 100 yard group of 5 rounds: Sierra 150 grain JFN on top of 26.5 grains of IMR 3031, with Rem 9 1/2 primer. This is where my rifle is zeroed and the group is acceptable.

I then shot my cast reloads.

The workup is as follows: 165 grain Missouri Bullet FN, Unique powder, mixed brass, Rem 9 1/2 primer.

Charges: 7.0, 7.5, 8.0, 8.5, 9.0, 9.5

The results were so bad I won't show the pictures of the targets. At 50 yards the drop was over 5 inches. At 100 yards the drop was more than 8 inches. Left to Right shot locations were wildly inconsistent.

There does not appear to be much lead fouling in the bore, and the rifle was meticulously clean prior to shooting.

I seated the bullets just behind the cannelure, with no roll crimp since when target shooting I don't load the tube magazine. I just drop them into the breech one at a time.

Cases were full length sized. No cases were trimmed as they were all at least .010 shorter than maximum case length after resizing.

The OAL of each cartridge was within .003 of each other.

Perhaps this may not be much to go on when seeking advice, since there are so many variables in reloading for accuracy, but any advice from a seasoned cast boolit loader would be appreciated. I'm looking for places to start narrowing the problem(s) down.

While all of today's shooting was "on the paper" it was nothing like what I'm used to achieving. I can usually keep my groups under 2.5 inches, and with cast bullets I couldn't keep them within 7 inches.

Any advice?

[Jimro]

Did you slug the bore? I would do that to make sure that the bullets are sized appropriate for your rifle.

Then I would load 5 rounds with 9.0, five rounds with 9.5, five with 10.0, and five with 10.5 grains of Unique (warning, max charge by at least one source), and crimp the bullets into the brass. Shoot for groups.

I'm not much of a cast bullet guy for centerfire rifle, mainly pistol, so forgive me if I'm not very helpful.

Jimro

[jaysouth]

Clean all the copper fouling out your barrel before shooting lead. Slug your barrel. Are these MBC bullets advertised as "hard cast"? You may need a softer alloy.

[Bluehighways]

Jimro - I haven't slugged the bore. I don't have gauge pins or anything to measure the actual bore diameter as of now. I'll have to look into that. The MBC bullets are sized at .311 and run pretty consistent, but that won't mean much if my bore turns out to have less than an interference fit of .004 - .006

Jaysouth - The bore was clean prior to shooting. I use Hoppe's brass solvent (it's probably not as effective as something like Butch's). The bullets are 18 brinnell hardness. It is definitely possible that they may be too hard to effectively deform to seal against the rifling upon cartridge ignition. If that's the case I'll have to come up with a charge "work around" to achieve proper sealing since I have 500 of these bullets in my stash.


Jimro - I will work up some loads to the top end of this powder. Maybe 10.0 to 10.5 will be the ticket. I'll know next week.

thanks for the replies!

[A pause for the COZ]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


So far I have not had great success with store purchased hard cast bullets in my 30-30's.

Seems they need to be pushed hard to engage the rifling properly.
One notable exception has been using Trail Boss powder.
It is a real high pressure low power powder.
The pressure seems to whack the bullet enough to get it to engage the rifling.
Actually I have yet to find one cast bullet in any caliber that Trail Boss cant make fly strait. I think they are magic Dohnuts.
But max speed is only going to be in the 1000 fps range. Good for plinking, but thats about it.

The next usable pressure range has been to use a faster rifle powder, Like RL-7


Once I started casting my own. primarily the LEE 150 gr rnfp in a softer alloy.
12 to 15 bn range, essentially WW lead. Thats when I started to see what those guns could do

Try a softer alloy bullet gas checked and sized to at least .309. .310 being what I prefer.
Load them ahead of 15 to 16 gr 2400. I think you will be happy.
Should give you a nice accurate load in the 1700 fps range.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Since you say yours is a 336 model it probably has Micro Groove Rifling. (Very shallow cut rifling) Which calls for a especially larger cast size bullet of .311 dia. Consider gas checked bullets on your next re-order as well. The longer the barrel is the more likely you'll see leading of some degree when using any commercially made non-gas/checked cast bullets. Especially more so when the barrel heats up to where its hot to the human touch.When targeting and using cast Sir. Give your barrel some time between shots to cool. (Open its action and let the outside air circulate thru your rifles barrel.) Guaranteed you'll see much better accuracy doing that cooling procedure with the proper bullet size of .311. ‎

[57K]

My loads were worked up in a Winchester 94 and I had very good results with Oregon Trails True Cast 170 gr. GC bullet, Ramshot X-Terminator, WLP in Winchester brass, but they ran a lot faster than anything you can do with Unique. No leading issues at all. I have no experience loading for the Marlin.

[Boomer58cal]

Yep. OreGun trail is worth looking at. I haven't loaded them in my 30-30 but their silver bullets are amazing out of my 94 win 44 mag, Ruger super red/black hawks and my LCA 357 mag. You can push them very hard and I've had no leading issues. They also have a load manual for their bullets that covers most cartridges and powders. They're the only cast bullets I buy. I cast everything else myself.

Good luck Boomer

[dahermit]

First check the diameter of the nose of the bullet in relationship to the lands in the bore by inserting a loaded cast bullet round into the muzzel. If it goes in loose, it will not usually be very accurate. Idealy, it should take some pressure to get it to go in. Then, look up loads using Rx7 and start with the begining load. Not only will you are likely to find a load that shoots, but you will not be restricted to mild target loads, but loads that can be used for deer hunting.

[YunGun]

Still working up loads for my Marlin 30-30 as well, but I've had a fair amount of success with Unique in the ranges you mentioned with a Lee 170gr cast bullet. Everything that I've found so far suggests that the Marlin micro-groove barrels need a wider-diameter bullet to properly fill the throat & engage the rifling.

As previously stated, slugging your barrel is the only way to know for sure what diameter you'll need, but .310-.311 should be about right. How are you expanding the mouth of your brass?
The Lyman M dies are highly recommended for cast bullet shooting as they expand the neck slightly as well as the mouth, and have a slightly wider step at the mouth to allow for more uniform bullet seating. It's possible that you may be swaging the bullet base to less than .310-.311 when seating the bullet too; you might pull one and check the base diameter to see if they're getting sized down during the loading process.

[Bluehighways]

Thanks for all the replies. After reviewing them and giving this some thought, my conclusion is that the bullets are just too small for micro groove rifling.

My bullets measure .309 and they're not tight in the bore, at least not as tight as they need to be. It is also entirely possible that I'm swaging the bullet bases even smaller when pressing them into the cases. Sometimes a bit of lead gets shaved off during reloading.

My solution: I'm going to stick with jacketed bullets for my .30-30, and use the lot of my 500 cast FN as plinkers in my .308, which has standard rifling.

Again, thank you all for the replies and advice. It is much appreciated.

[m&p45acp10+1]

You will most likely need to get either a universal expander die, or a larger sized expander button for you sizing die. It will be needed to keep from shaving off the oversized lead bullets. In straight walled cases it is not needed becasue they have an expander to bell the case mouth.

Also as you noted a fatter bullet may be needed as well.

[Jimro]

Shaving lead off is a bad sign. Try gently belling the case mouth a tad, and easy way to do that in 30 cal is to use a spent 5.56 casing, at least for a few rounds. I was having difficulty seating flat based bullets in an 8x57, and a gentle belling of the case mouth fixed that right up, no more kinks in the necks.

Jimro

[reloader28]

I think the Lee universal expander die is only like $15. It is WELL worth it. You'll want it for your 308 if you use the cast bullets in that too. If the .311 fits, stick with it.

Once you get the right combo, the 30-30 is a perfect cast bullet gun. None of mine will ever see another jacketed bullet again for hunting OR plinking.

[Bluehighways]

Looks like I'm going to invest in an expander die and give the .30-30 one more go at it. I'm currently using and RCBS set and the expander ball isn't quite opening up the case mouth enough to prevent lead from being shaved off the bullet upon seating.

I will also try the .223 case trick to bell the .30-30 case a bit.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

a little late to the chat, but I think you're on the right track, with bullet diameter, & getting yourself a bigger expander button... ( anything I load both cast & jacketed bullets, I either have 2 expander buttons, or 2 marked expanding dies, so I don't have to re-set each time I switch )

I also like Trailboss, but have found I get the best result when using Unique, with a good crimp ( better, cleaner burn, & more consistent velocity ) so I put a good crimp on any loads with Unique, even if it's not required for function ( I.E. even for single shot rifles & handguns )

[Rifleman1776]

The problem is the Marlin. They simply will not shoot lead bullets. My .44 mag. often would not find paper at 25 yards. Those micro-groove barrels are hunka-junkas IMHO.

[reloader28]

Rifleman, you are dead wrong about that. You might be doing something wrong.
I know MANY guys (myself included) that shoot cast bullets in the micro grooves with no problems.
Sometimes it just takes awhile to find the right combo.

[PawPaw]

Originally Posted by Rifleman1776

The problem is the Marlin. They simply will not shoot lead bullets. My .44 mag. often would not find paper at 25 yards. Those micro-groove barrels are hunka-junkas IMHO.

That's not been my experience. The Marlins shoot cast bullets very well as long as the bullet is the proper size for the bore, you understand rotational speeds, and the alloy matches the pressure of the load.

[salvadore]

I agree with reloader, if microgroove was the problem my 39A wouldn't shoot rimfire lead as well as it does.

This stuff has already been said, but cleaning the barrel of copper, use a GC bullet and not loading the base of the bullet below the neck has been good for accuracy in my experience. If you don't feel confident about slugging the barrel, if the bullet is too small, it should show up as leading.

I've shot 3 different cast bullets in my 32 spec. using 4198 with acceptable accuracy. I believe your accuracy problems have more to do with a dirty barrel and a plain base bullet, especially if its a bevel base.

[myfriendis410]

You may also try a slower powder like 4198 or RL7 at slightly higher velocities. Sometimes this alone will make a big difference. With that hardness level I see no reason you can't get 1,500 fps or so out of your cast bullets.

[243winxb]

The bullet needs a gas check to grip the micro rifling. With GC use IMR 4895. Size .310"

[YunGun]

I know it's been awhile since this thread was started or saw any activity, but I was curious if you've made any headway with your cast bullet loads?

While the 'micro-groove' rifling does seem to add another layer of complexity to the mix, I too strongly disagree that they are incapable of shooting cast bullets well. Even using the poorly-fitting Lee .309" 170gr GC bullet without the GC I was able to achieve pretty decent 50yd 'plinking' accuracy with Unique in the load range you originally posted.

Changing to a different bullet profile (like this RD311165 clone) definitely improved bullet fit & overall consistency though.

I second the suggestion to try RL-7 &/or 4198; those have been two of the best-performing (read most accurate) powders I've tried yet.

[Clark]

Cast bullet 30-30 lever action, I can only get great groups if I load so long it will not feed from the tube. I load single shot and when I close the lever, it seats the bullet.
Lyman 311291, 170 gr gas check, 25 gr IMR4895, 2.58" OAL