Long Distance Rifle

Marquezj16 · September 22, 2011, 10:22 AM

One of the guys I work with shoots at a 1000 yard range. He asked me to shoot with him and maybe enter their local competition. They shoot at 600 yards. I would love to shoot that distance!

Now here's my dilemna. While I know my .308 and 30-06 rifles are accurate enough, they are hunting rifles and have a thinner barrel. They can heat up really quick and that could greatly affect their accuracy. Most of the guys that shoot in the competition have bull barrels.

Well, I have a Rem 700 ADL Varmint in .223. It has the varmint barrel and is plenty accurate (shot golf balls at 340 yards). I'm aware of the limitation of a lighter bullet and the effects of wind at that distance. Am I kidding myself for thinking I can shoot it out to 600 yards?

Has anyone ever competed with a .223 to that distance? How was your experience?

Second part of this thread is, what rifle and caliber would you use if you were shooting targets at 600 yards all day?

Jimro · September 22, 2011, 10:36 AM

Depends on your twist rate. If you are 1:8 or tighter you should try some 80gr SMKs.

Jimro

kvd · September 22, 2011, 10:42 AM

The firing line at Camp Perry is full of Service Rifles firing 5.56X45/223 at 600 yards. Work up a load with the heavier bullets in .224 caliber and the ADL will work great.

6, 6.5, and 7mm cartridges work well at 600 to 1000yards. Your 308 and 30-06 will work to if loaded up and you can tolerate the recoil.

Ken

Jim Watson · September 22, 2011, 10:46 AM

A factory Remington barrel is not going to be an 8 twist.
Depending on the age and exact model, it might be 12, or 9, or maybe 7.

Load some up with the highest BC bullets your barrel will handle and go shooting with them. If you like the game, then you can think about a new barrel or a whole new gun.

If I were going to be shooting all day at 600 yards, I would have a .223 with Jimro's 8 twist barrel and 80 grain bullets. I actually have one with 6.5 twist for 90 grain bullets but that is probably overkill.

Marquezj16 · September 22, 2011, 11:13 AM

Unfortunately, I have the 1:12 twist and my reloads only go up to 55 gr at the moment. I could try slightly heavier, maybe 60 gr or 68 gr but that's probably pushing it.

Options would be to change barrel (which one?) and or buy a new rifle (again which one?).

I can shoot my .308 all day but my 30-06, I have to take breaks once in a while.

Thanks for the reply.

RC20 · September 22, 2011, 11:47 AM

Easy answer.

Get a TRG-42 Sako in 338 Lapua. Good out to 1500 meters (and thats like 2000 yard)

Good scope and 1000 is a slam dunk!

emcon5 · September 22, 2011, 12:02 PM

Yes, you can shoot 55 grain .223 at 600 yards, you will just have to work harder at judging the wind.

You can also use your hunting rifles. Yeah, the barrel will heat up, so what? You are not going to win, you are going to try it out, learn about shooting long range and have fun. If you find you like it, then you can reassess and start buying equipment.

4EVERM-14 · September 22, 2011, 02:32 PM

Highpower rifle shooters are generally very happy to help out someone interested in playing the game. Find out what the course of fire is. If it's all slow fire your .223 may suffice. But it may require a different setup then you have. See if your work mate is willing to loan you a rifle or knows of one that you can borrow. Of course offer to pay for ammo. At the very least go to the match. You may discover more then just another shooting game.

Brian Pfleuger · September 22, 2011, 03:47 PM

Well, my favorite rifle cartridge is 7mm-08. I have read that it is, or was, very popular with silhouette shooters. So, if I wanted to shoot that distance, I'd get a 7-08.

On the matter of your .223, I say shoot it. Go, have fun. Worry about what can win later. Besides, I'm sure 600 is not out of line for that gun. My .204 Ruger can shoot 450 easy enough, which is as far as I've ever tried. It has a traditional, very thin barrel. It holds 3/4 MOA at that distance.

nathaniel · September 22, 2011, 10:28 PM

Use your .223, I just traded my DPMS for a Savage model 12FV in 223. I can hit prairie dogs at 500 yards just about every shot. I use Ultramax 55 grain nosler ballistic tips. Like someone else said the trick to shooting the 223 or any rifle for that matter at long distances it being able to read the wind. Go shoot it up, see if you like it and if you dont no money lost if you do buy a setup you want once you get experianced. But mainly HAVE FUN WITH IT!

payne · September 22, 2011, 10:29 PM

600 YD is at the fringe of the .223's max period. Like a previous poster said, just use your .308 at this match. If your interest is peeked then look for something geared more toward long range target.

Jimro · September 23, 2011, 03:14 AM

Quote:

600 YD is at the fringe of the .223's max period. Like a previous poster said, just use your .308 at this match. If your interest is peeked then look for something geared more toward long range target.

If all you are looking for is 600 yards you are WELL within the performance envelope of the 223. 600 yards is 548 meters which is no problem for the 223.

The 1:12 twist limits your bullet choices, I wouldn't use 55gr FMJ's but any HPBT match bullet between 52 and 58 grains should be fine.

If you do get a chance to rebarrel, a 1:9 twist with a 20" or longer barrel should get you up to 75 gr bullets, 69gr for sure. A 1:8 barrel 20" or longer should get you up to 80gr, 77 for sure. A 1:7 is a great twist, because it handles the 80 gr bullets all day long. Those that are shooting the 90 gr bullets usually have a 1:6.5 twist.

Jimro

**Shane Tuttle** · September 23, 2011, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC20

Easy answer.
Get a TRG-42 Sako in 338 Lapua. Good out to 1500 meters (and thats like 2000 yard)
Good scope and 1000 is a slam dunk!

1. The OP is looking for answers in the 600yard range, not 1000.
2. 1500 meters equals roughly 1640 yards. Hardly close to 2000.
3. As I'm sure .338 Lapua will be fairly accurate at 1000, (if it were the subject at hand), discussions on this board have provided better cartridges to use at this distance.

Marquez, I have to agree with the consensus here. Take one of your rifles and give it a whirl.

I don't have a clear answer to your last questions. I'm still researching the same information you seek. Currently, I'm really leaning towards the .260Remington. It's basically a sister to the 6.5x55Swede which, IMHO, is just about the best cartridge I've ever experienced. Recoil is light. Accuracy potential is out of this world. Bullets available have BC that's hard to beat. Brass life is above average as well as barrel life.

If you don't reload and aren't picky about what everyone else has, then the tried and true .308Win is your best bet. Everybody and their dog makes quality match grade ammo that won't break the bank. Barrel life is commendable to say the least. Recoil isn't too bad.

Marquezj16 · September 23, 2011, 05:31 AM

Thanks for the input. I think I will use my .223 and try it out. It will be quite a challenge. I'll also bring my .308 to test it out at that distance. If all goes well and I decided to add long distance shooting to my list of expensive hobbies, I will revisit upgrading to a different barrel and/or different rifle.

kraigwy · September 23, 2011, 08:02 AM

I have a simular rifle to yours, Rem 700 Varment in 223, 1:12. This was my LE Counter sniper Rifle.

I have shot it further then 600 many times when I was running sniper schools.

I picked this rifle per advice from the USAMU Sniper School guidence with the ideal that I'd probably never use in in LE past 300 yards.

But, I wanted to know what it would do farther, so I played with it in the schools I ran.

It can do it, as others mentioned stick to =/< 55 grn. bullets. You have to pay attention to the enviormental conditions but its doable.

In SE Asia there were test to try to find a sniper rifle based on the M16 (1:12) and it had confirmed kills to 700 yards.

I'd recommend using your Rem 223. Stick with the 55 grn bullets. Shoot it until you find out if you really want to get involved. Also it will give you time to figure out which route you want to go if you deside to stick with the game.

TX Hunter · September 23, 2011, 08:18 AM

Just go with what you have and try it out, dont let the stress of worrying about what you may or may not need overwhelm you.
You will make friends, and have fun.

kraigwy · September 23, 2011, 08:27 AM

As a second thought:

I was thinking about this topic after I made my earlier post.

If you reload, try Hornady 53 grn Vmax. I think you'll find it has the best BC of the ligher bullets and will buck the wind a bit better and retain its velocity.

emcon5 · September 23, 2011, 12:37 PM

In a 10 MPH full value wind, a .308/.30-06 will have 4-5 minutes of drift at 600 yards, depending on the bullet and velocity. A 55 gr .223 will have 7-8 MOA of drift.

Yes, it is harder, but it is far from insurmountable, even for a novice long range shooter.

A buddy shot a long range match, out to 800 yards, with a bone-stock A2 AR15, with Wal-Mart Winchester white box ammo. It did fine out to 600 yards, but 800 was too far, they went subsonic and lost stability.

Another friend, shot his first match ever, in a long range vintage rifle match (out to 800 yards), with a borrowed German K98 and 50 year old surplus ammo. It was the first time he fired a rifle, any rifle, since he left the Army in the early 1990s.

Just go, shoot what you got, and have fun. If you find you like it, then you can buy or build a long range rig.

5whiskey · September 23, 2011, 01:03 PM

I second finding out what the course of fire is. Regardless, 600 yards for .223 is more than possible... 200,000 Marines shoot at 500 yards all the time with service grade rifles and iron sights.

If it's a slow fire type event, I may would try out one of the hunting rifles just for kicks. Entirely up to you. Depending on the format I would take my 24/47 mauser just for kicks, but that's just me.

emcon5 · September 23, 2011, 01:15 PM

Forgot to mention, if you have a load that can "shoot golf balls at 340 yards" use that.

The difference between the best 55 grain .224 and the worst 55 grain .224 bullet is at most a half minute at 600 yards in a full value wind. Really not worth messing with.

Consider making a wind dope chart for your load, run the numbers through the JBM Ballistics to get a decent idea. Attached is my dope sheet for the M1 with M2 ball ammo, to get an idea of what I am talking about.

Marquezj16 · September 23, 2011, 03:12 PM

My current reload for my .223 is Hornady V-Max 55 grain, with CCI primer and 27.4 gr BL-C2 in Hornady Case. It seems to be the most accurate with this load.

Thanks everyone for all your responses. I'll post again after the shoot in a few weeks.

September 22, 2011, 10:22 AM	#1
Marquezj16 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Posts: 2,088	Long Distance Rifle One of the guys I work with shoots at a 1000 yard range. He asked me to shoot with him and maybe enter their local competition. They shoot at 600 yards. I would love to shoot that distance! Now here's my dilemna. While I know my .308 and 30-06 rifles are accurate enough, they are hunting rifles and have a thinner barrel. They can heat up really quick and that could greatly affect their accuracy. Most of the guys that shoot in the competition have bull barrels. Well, I have a Rem 700 ADL Varmint in .223. It has the varmint barrel and is plenty accurate (shot golf balls at 340 yards). I'm aware of the limitation of a lighter bullet and the effects of wind at that distance. Am I kidding myself for thinking I can shoot it out to 600 yards? Has anyone ever competed with a .223 to that distance? How was your experience? Second part of this thread is, what rifle and caliber would you use if you were shooting targets at 600 yards all day?

September 22, 2011, 10:36 AM	#2
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Depends on your twist rate. If you are 1:8 or tighter you should try some 80gr SMKs. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

September 22, 2011, 11:13 AM	#5
Marquezj16 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Posts: 2,088	1:12 Unfortunately, I have the 1:12 twist and my reloads only go up to 55 gr at the moment. I could try slightly heavier, maybe 60 gr or 68 gr but that's probably pushing it. Options would be to change barrel (which one?) and or buy a new rifle (again which one?). I can shoot my .308 all day but my 30-06, I have to take breaks once in a while. Thanks for the reply.

September 22, 2011, 11:47 AM	#6
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Easy answer. Get a TRG-42 Sako in 338 Lapua. Good out to 1500 meters (and thats like 2000 yard) Good scope and 1000 is a slam dunk! Last edited by RC20; September 22, 2011 at 10:26 PM.

September 22, 2011, 02:32 PM	#8
4EVERM-14 Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2006 Location: Pennsy Posts: 720	Highpower rifle shooters are generally very happy to help out someone interested in playing the game. Find out what the course of fire is. If it's all slow fire your .223 may suffice. But it may require a different setup then you have. See if your work mate is willing to loan you a rifle or knows of one that you can borrow. Of course offer to pay for ammo. At the very least go to the match. You may discover more then just another shooting game. __________________ David NRA Benefactor Member Distinguished Rifleman #731 Presidents 100

September 22, 2011, 10:42 AM	#3
kvd Junior Member Join Date: September 18, 2011 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 5	The firing line at Camp Perry is full of Service Rifles firing 5.56X45/223 at 600 yards. Work up a load with the heavier bullets in .224 caliber and the ADL will work great. 6, 6.5, and 7mm cartridges work well at 600 to 1000yards. Your 308 and 30-06 will work to if loaded up and you can tolerate the recoil. Ken

September 22, 2011, 10:46 AM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	A factory Remington barrel is not going to be an 8 twist. Depending on the age and exact model, it might be 12, or 9, or maybe 7. Load some up with the highest BC bullets your barrel will handle and go shooting with them. If you like the game, then you can think about a new barrel or a whole new gun. If I were going to be shooting all day at 600 yards, I would have a .223 with Jimro's 8 twist barrel and 80 grain bullets. I actually have one with 6.5 twist for 90 grain bullets but that is probably overkill.

September 22, 2011, 12:02 PM	#7
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	Yes, you can shoot 55 grain .223 at 600 yards, you will just have to work harder at judging the wind. You can also use your hunting rifles. Yeah, the barrel will heat up, so what? You are not going to win, you are going to try it out, learn about shooting long range and have fun. If you find you like it, then you can reassess and start buying equipment.

September 22, 2011, 03:47 PM	#9
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Well, my favorite rifle cartridge is 7mm-08. I have read that it is, or was, very popular with silhouette shooters. So, if I wanted to shoot that distance, I'd get a 7-08. On the matter of your .223, I say shoot it. Go, have fun. Worry about what can win later. Besides, I'm sure 600 is not out of line for that gun. My .204 Ruger can shoot 450 easy enough, which is as far as I've ever tried. It has a traditional, very thin barrel. It holds 3/4 MOA at that distance.

September 22, 2011, 10:28 PM	#10
nathaniel Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: North Dakota Posts: 600	Use your .223, I just traded my DPMS for a Savage model 12FV in 223. I can hit prairie dogs at 500 yards just about every shot. I use Ultramax 55 grain nosler ballistic tips. Like someone else said the trick to shooting the 223 or any rifle for that matter at long distances it being able to read the wind. Go shoot it up, see if you like it and if you dont no money lost if you do buy a setup you want once you get experianced. But mainly HAVE FUN WITH IT!

September 22, 2011, 10:29 PM	#11
payne Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: SE US Posts: 519	600 YD is at the fringe of the .223's max period. Like a previous poster said, just use your .308 at this match. If your interest is peeked then look for something geared more toward long range target. __________________ If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. - Sun Tzu

September 23, 2011, 05:31 AM	#14
Marquezj16 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Posts: 2,088	Thanks for the input. I think I will use my .223 and try it out. It will be quite a challenge. I'll also bring my .308 to test it out at that distance. If all goes well and I decided to add long distance shooting to my list of expensive hobbies, I will revisit upgrading to a different barrel and/or different rifle.

September 23, 2011, 08:02 AM	#15
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	I have a simular rifle to yours, Rem 700 Varment in 223, 1:12. This was my LE Counter sniper Rifle. I have shot it further then 600 many times when I was running sniper schools. I picked this rifle per advice from the USAMU Sniper School guidence with the ideal that I'd probably never use in in LE past 300 yards. But, I wanted to know what it would do farther, so I played with it in the schools I ran. It can do it, as others mentioned stick to =/< 55 grn. bullets. You have to pay attention to the enviormental conditions but its doable. In SE Asia there were test to try to find a sniper rifle based on the M16 (1:12) and it had confirmed kills to 700 yards. I'd recommend using your Rem 223. Stick with the 55 grn bullets. Shoot it until you find out if you really want to get involved. Also it will give you time to figure out which route you want to go if you deside to stick with the game. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

September 23, 2011, 08:18 AM	#16
TX Hunter Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Location: East Texas USA Posts: 1,805	Just go with what you have and try it out, dont let the stress of worrying about what you may or may not need overwhelm you. You will make friends, and have fun.

September 23, 2011, 08:27 AM	#17
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	As a second thought: I was thinking about this topic after I made my earlier post. If you reload, try Hornady 53 grn Vmax. I think you'll find it has the best BC of the ligher bullets and will buck the wind a bit better and retain its velocity. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

September 23, 2011, 12:37 PM	#18
emcon5 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 1999 Location: High Desert NV Posts: 2,850	In a 10 MPH full value wind, a .308/.30-06 will have 4-5 minutes of drift at 600 yards, depending on the bullet and velocity. A 55 gr .223 will have 7-8 MOA of drift. Yes, it is harder, but it is far from insurmountable, even for a novice long range shooter. A buddy shot a long range match, out to 800 yards, with a bone-stock A2 AR15, with Wal-Mart Winchester white box ammo. It did fine out to 600 yards, but 800 was too far, they went subsonic and lost stability. Another friend, shot his first match ever, in a long range vintage rifle match (out to 800 yards), with a borrowed German K98 and 50 year old surplus ammo. It was the first time he fired a rifle, any rifle, since he left the Army in the early 1990s. Just go, shoot what you got, and have fun. If you find you like it, then you can buy or build a long range rig.

September 23, 2011, 01:03 PM	#19
5whiskey Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2005 Location: US Posts: 3,652	I second finding out what the course of fire is. Regardless, 600 yards for .223 is more than possible... 200,000 Marines shoot at 500 yards all the time with service grade rifles and iron sights. If it's a slow fire type event, I may would try out one of the hunting rifles just for kicks. Entirely up to you. Depending on the format I would take my 24/47 mauser just for kicks, but that's just me.

September 23, 2011, 03:12 PM	#21
Marquezj16 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2011 Posts: 2,088	Current Recipe My current reload for my .223 is Hornady V-Max 55 grain, with CCI primer and 27.4 gr BL-C2 in Hornady Case. It seems to be the most accurate with this load. Thanks everyone for all your responses. I'll post again after the shoot in a few weeks.