The lawyers must be building Lee dippers and powder weight cards

[spacecoast]

First of all, let me say that I am a big fan of Lee dippers, they simplify the reloading process greatly and I've had great success using only dippers and my Lee hand press for several different handgun rounds ranging from .380 ACP to .45 ACP.

I was trying to determine the capacity of a homemade dipper (a .32 auto case) and noticed some discrepancies between what the card that came with the dippers reports for charge weights and what they actually weigh. My method was to weigh a container holding anywhere from 5 to 30 "dips" of the powder in question, subtract the container weight and convert the average weight of a single dipperful from grams to grains.

Depending on the powder, I found that the Lee numbers on the card are as much as 25% higher (heavier) than the actual charge weights. For example,

.3cc dipper

Accurate #2 - 2.9 grains actual vs. 3.6 grains on the card
Titegroup - 3.3 grains actual vs. 3.5 grains on the card
Unique - 2.25 grains actual vs. 2.7 grains on the card

.5cc dipper

Accurate #2 - 5.1 grains vs. 6.0
Titegroup - 5.4 grains vs. 5.9
Unique - 3.7 grains vs. 4.6

Interestingly enough, the 1.0cc dipper for H110 (what I use for a heavy .357 load) is actually understated on the card (15.3 grains) vs. actual (16.0 grains). Fortunately, it's still less than the 16.7 gr. max load for a 158 JHP.

I'm going to have to recalibrate and retest my loads based on what I've found, particularly with Unique and Accurate #2. I can understand a 10% safety margin built into the numbers to account for different dipping methods and powder lot variations, but 25% seems a bit excessive.

In case anyone is wondering, I keep my powders in an air conditioned environment 24/7. The scale used is a 500 gram x0.1 gram electronic scale I have used to verify the weights of various coins, so I believe it to be pretty accurate.

[wncchester]

"The lawyers must be building Lee dippers and powder weight cards "

Doubt it. More likely it's the normal variations in powder lots.

[Sevens]

A powder dipper is basically a volumetric powder measure but without the assistance of an easily repeatable mechanism. The repeatable mechanism is the method and action of your hand.

How you push it through the container of powder, if/how you tap it or run a card across the top to flatten it and exactly how well you can attempt to repeat those actions. So my first question would be just how accurate are your dips? Do we know that your dips are consistent enough to use them as solid data?

If yes, then my next reaction would be to ask Lee how long it's been since they developed the current slide card they are using. I know that I have a Lee dipper set that I bought in 1988 and I don't know when it was actually researched and printed. But I can say with total honesty that a can of Unique from 1988 and a bottle of it from 2010 aren't likely to meter the same charge weight from a dipper and they aren't likely to use the same load data. We've seen published load data from just about every powder source drift over the years.

With the slide card, you've got a few things working against you. I think the proper way to use the Lee dippers is to put the slide card back in the box and ignore it and instead, grab a dipper and use your scale to see what kind of powder dumps you get from it.

No scale? Go buy a scale or go buy your ammo and leave handloading up to the folks that are willing to pay to play.

[spacecoast]

So my first question would be just how accurate are your dips? Do we know that your dips are consistent enough to use them as solid data?

I've dipped over 6,000 rounds in the last 9 months, so I have to believe I'm getting some kind of consistency. No evidence otherwise. Every round I've shot has gone bang and has never stuck one in the barrel.

grab a dipper and use your scale to see what kind of powder dumps you get from it

Well, I think that's exactly what I have described above, admittedly this is being done a bit belatedly

I'm in the process of re-evaluating my loads based on what I'm actually dipping and what the min/max values are. In many cases I am at the low end of the min-max range rather than where I thought I was (in the middle). Some of the Unique loads (a more difficult powder to meter as well as dip) may move from .5cc to .6cc, for instance, given the 20-25% overstatement of charge weights on the card.

If there's a bright side to all this, it's that I have used 10-20% less powder than I thought I was!

[TXGunNut]

Best use I've found for the dippers is in load development and small batches where every charge is weighed. I don't want to fiddle with a measure for 5-10 rounds of a given powder charge so I pick a scoop to get me close and trickle it up on an electronic scale to get the charge I want. Some powders don't do well in a measure but scoops work for all. When I first got the scoops and checked the info on the card (idle curiousity) it was pretty close but that doesn't matter to me. Technique is key, sometimes I can get amazingly close by fine-tuning my scooping technique.
Could I use them as my only means of measuring powder? Nope, not a chance. Could I do load development without them? I'd rather not. Guess I'm misusing another fine tool from Lee.

[billcarey]

My Lee card is always too far off for me to consider even looking at the card for pipsqueek loads. I doesn't matter how it's dipped, what the lot is, how old, newly opened or not. I load AA for small pistol and the dippers stay in their box. On rifle loads the variation isn't a problem.

[jmortimer]

I love the Lee Precision Dippers but they do drop light charges especially if you follow the recommendations of Richard Lee as described in Modern Reloading where he and late great Dean Grennell would do load development using oinly the dippers in the field. Dean's method, which was to push the bottom of the dipper in the powder and let the powder fill in the dipper and then "flick" off the top with a card. The key is uniform dipping action. Since I want heavier charges which are more consistent with the charge card I scoop and do not swipe off the excess and find that will work. Since I hate scales I will continue to use the dippers with my own uniform dipping method. I get +/- .2 grains or better which is fine for me for .38/.357 and .45 Colt and less than max loads. As the post above says, they always go bang and work just fine.

[Sevens]

You hate scales? Really?

How'd you get to that point?

[jmortimer]

Probably using the Lee Precision scale - very tedious. I like to scoop and dump - since I only use Unique I will weigh the first load or two to make sure Alliant did not screw up the labeling and I in fact have Unique and then the scale can sit on the shelf for a year or so until I buy some more Unique. Saves a whole lot of my time. I should say I hate using scales on a regular basis and checking loads again and again. Scales are essential and must be used at least once or twice if you use dippers like I do and then back to the shelf until I need to check a new powder cannister of Unique.

[Doby45]

I've dipped over 6,000 rounds in the last 9 months, so I have to believe I'm getting some kind of consistency. No evidence otherwise. Every round I've shot has gone bang and has never stuck one in the barrel.

You have GOT to be joking. You literally reload so much that you have loaded 6,000 rounds in the last 9 months and yet you can't drop $20 on a Lee PPM?

[blu97]

Glad to find others who are using dippers, never had a problem with the lee method of pushing the base of the cup into the powder and striking with a card. I load a lot of 30-06 for garands and have to say the dippers are a lot more acurate with IMR 4895 than my rcbs uniflow.

[Lost Sheep]

Frankly, the "push straight down into the powder" method of dipping never made much sense to me. It may have the benefit of uniform powder fills, but the grinding of the powder granules against each other (and concomitant removal of the critical coatings on those granules) concerns me.

Currently, I use a shallow bowl and pass the dipper through the powder in an arc that comes close to, but does not touch the bottom of the bowl. Uniformity of technique (and keeping the bowl about 2/3 to 1/2 full) is essential, but I have found every powder I have tried to be very consistent.

The dipping straight down has inspired me to consider an alternative method. Hold the dipper "A" (the one of your chosen size) steady over the bowl, horizontal and with the cup upright. Using a larger dipper "B", scoop powder and pour into dipper "A". Shake slightly to produce a uniform mounding of powder on the dipper and there's your charge.

If anyone tests this technique, let me know the results. If I get around to it, I will post. The drawback is that it involves using both hands and is slower than the proven technique I already use.

By the way, I compared the weights on Lee's chart to those dipped with the scoops back in 1977. I tossed the card back in the box and never looked at it again. Like the others of like mind who have posted on this thread, I determine a weight I want and find a dipper that gives that weight, regardless of what the chart says.


Lost Sheep

[sserdlihc]

Probably using the Lee Precision scale - very tedious.

I agree. But I bought an electronic scale and eliminated the tediousness that I was having.

[ScottRiqui]

I originally found the Lee Precision scale to be very tedious, but only because I didn't realize just how sensitive that sucker is. I would obsess over getting the pointer on the beam to line up exactly with the index mark on the frame for every charge. It got to the point where I would set my dispenser to throw a light charge and then use a trickler until the pointer lined up perfectly.

Once I realized that the scale's pointer can come to rest above or below the index mark by as much as 1/8" without the charge being off more than 0.1 gr, I quit obsessing over it.

[Edward429451]

I think I looked at Lees slide card a few times but not in any serious way. Who uses the card? You have to have a scale, doh. I use a cereal bowl too.

[MW surveyor]

Spacecoast

You do realize that 0.1 of a gram is 1.54324 grains?

I bought one of those electroic scales but soon realized that the figitty Lee Scale was way more accurate.

[Sig_Dude]

Space,

I have noticed the exact same thing. It's very annoying.

[spacecoast]

Spacecoast

You do realize that 0.1 of a gram is 1.54324 grains?

I don't think I would have made it to 6,000 rounds if I didn't