Purchasing a shotgun out of state

[XDforever]

Note that a "mailing address" is not the same as your "current residence address". A PO Box in Texas or having your mail sent to your sisters house in Abilene doesn't make you a resident of Texas.....you actually have to reside at the address you write on the Form 4473.

If your answer to Que2 on the Form 4473 isn't actually your CURRENT residence address.........you commit a violation of Federal law.

Unfortunately, ATF regs/Federal law don't allow many RVer's to legally acquire firearms. (because they cannot provide the required government issued documents showing current residence address)

My current residence address and my mailing address are one in the same. That same address is on my Texas Driver's License and my Texas Concealed Handgun License. I indeed have a residence in Texas and it is my mailing address. My daughter and her two kids rent my home from us.

Like I said, I have not purchased a gun yet or even initiated it yet. I will keep you informed as the summer progresses. I have not ever tried to purchase a gun outside of Texas before. This will be my first test case. I don't know what the trick is to purchase a long gun in Iowa is, but I assure you I do not intend to lie on form 4473. My residence (as I read it) is a 2500 sq foot house in Texas. I simply vacation in Iowa for 5 months or so during the summer.

As to your comment about ATF not allowing RVers to purchase guns, I have had zero trouble purchasing any of my firearms when in Texas. I actually added the XD Mod 2 9mm FDE handgun to my collection shortly before leaving Texas to come to Iowa.

However, if for some reason, the purchase does not work out, I will simply wait until I get back to Texas in October and do it then. No big deal either way.

Thanks for your concern about my purchase.

Joe

[dogtown tom]

XDforever

My current residence address and my mailing address are one in the same. That same address is on my Texas Driver's License and my Texas Concealed Handgun License. I indeed have a residence in Texas and it is my mailing address. My daughter and her two kids rent my home from us.

To be clear, YOU must actually reside in that home to be considered a Texas resident for the purposes of acquiring a firearm. If you rent the house to someone else and YOU do not live there it is not your current residence address.

..... My residence (as I read it) is a 2500 sq foot house in Texas. I simply vacation in Iowa for 5 months or so during the summer.

Your house in Texas is only considered your residence (for the purposes of acquiring firearms) if you actually reside there.

As to your comment about ATF not allowing RVers to purchase guns, I have had zero trouble purchasing any of my firearms when in Texas. I actually added the XD Mod 2 9mm FDE handgun to my collection shortly before leaving Texas to come to Iowa.

Search this forum and many others and you'll find a surprising number of RVer's who have used an address where they do not actually reside as their "current residence address". Although they may have a drivers license from a state with an address on it.......that does not mean it is their current residence address.

As far as "zero trouble".......several of those RVer's thought they were fine using the address on their drivers license, even if they never lived at that address. As they actually lived full time in their RV, they could not provide a government issued document that showed their name and current address where their RV may have been parked. Using the address on their drivers license instead of their actual current address means they committed a Federal felony when they signed that Form 4473.

However, if for some reason, the purchase does not work out, I will simply wait until I get back to Texas in October and do it then. No big deal either way.

No big deal if you actually reside at a Texas address. HUGE deal if you don't.

[XDforever]

Search this forum and many others and you'll find a surprising number of RVer's who have used an address where they do not actually reside as their "current residence address". Although they may have a drivers license from a state with an address on it.......that does not mean it is their current residence address.

As far as "zero trouble".......several of those RVer's thought they were fine using the address on their drivers license, even if they never lived at that address. As they actually lived full time in their RV, they could not provide a government issued document that showed their name and current address where their RV may have been parked. Using the address on their drivers license instead of their actual current address means they committed a Federal felony when they signed that Form 4473.



Quote:
However, if for some reason, the purchase does not work out, I will simply wait until I get back to Texas in October and do it then. No big deal either way.
No big deal if you actually reside at a Texas address. HUGE deal if you don't.

I am done with you Mr. Dogtown.

Joe

[Dreaming100Straight]

The problem for a CA res buying in other states isn't Federal but CA law. If you do buy in another state, you can't bring it back into CA other then by shipping to a FFL who will run it through the CA bc and charge a hefty fee (like $100 on top of the state's $25 fee.)

As for Fed law, you can take possession of the long guns at the dealers in another state, but handguns have to shipped by the selling dealer to the FFL in your home state, which in this case is CA. Then if it isn't on the CA List of Safe Handguns (the infamous roster) and you aren't an exempt person (Law Enforcement) the gun is shipped back to the selling dealer.

Penal Code 27585
(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

Anyhow, if I was to go to NV to do some shooting and bought a nice little Beretta while there, the dealer can sell it and give it to me, but I am in trouble if I drive home with it. It has to be brought into state by delivery to the dealer which the safe bet means shipping via common carrier.

[Blindstitch]

Well I'm curious to see how Joe makes out.

I'm pretty sure he's paying taxes on that said home and probably doesn't have a lease for his family living there.

If he finds the shotgun that he wants the only test will be filling out the 4473. If the DOJ says it's good then he's fine. If not then he can buy the shotgun in Texas. No big deal.

[dogtown tom]

XDforever I am done with you Mr. Dogtown.

Guess I struck a sore spot pointing out ATF regs huh? Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but my posts were intended to keep you from committing a Federal crime.

But go ahead, knock yourself out.

Blindstitch Well I'm curious to see how Joe makes out.

I'm pretty sure he's paying taxes on that said home and probably doesn't have a lease for his family living there.

Paying taxes on a home has nothing to do with a buyer/transferees state of residence or current residence address for the purposes of acquiring a firearm.

If he finds the shotgun that he wants the only test will be filling out the 4473. If the DOJ says it's good then he's fine. If not then he can buy the shotgun in Texas.

The ATF (not DOJ) has already ruled on what is considered a buyers state of residence. And since the buyer is the one to sign the form 4473 only he knows whether his responses are true, correct and complete, and it's the buyers responsibility to read the instructions on every Form 4473.

The FBI NICS is never told the buyers residence address, only "state of residence".

ATF doesn't say "it's good" as to whether a buyer correctly indicated his state of residence on the 4473. They'll never see that 4473 until after the buyer already signed it.







No big deal.

[dogtown tom]

Dreaming100Straight ....Anyhow, if I was to go to NV to do some shooting and bought a nice little Beretta while there, the dealer can sell it and give it to me...

A dealer in Nevada can only transfer rifles or shotguns to nonresidents....and those firearms must be legal to possess in the buyers state of residence.

Any dealer in Nevada who sells and transfers a handgun (or any firearm other than a rifle or shotgun) to someone who is not a Nevada resident will lose his FFL pretty darn quick.

but I am in trouble if I drive home with it. It has to be brought into state by delivery to the dealer which the safe bet means shipping via common carrier.

If you are a Cali resident the NV dealer will not transfer the handgun to you because FEDERAL law prohibits such a transfer. You can pay for it and give him the contact info for your dealer in Cali to receive the transfer.

[BigJimP]

My word guys - it seems like this is getting off the rails..../ man says he's a TX resident, has a TX drivers license.....and he says he's vacationing in Iowa....why the heck do we care what the laws in CA - or NV - or NY are....

Let him & the Iowa gun dealer figure it out...../ and apparently Bass Pro says it's fine.....

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by XDforever

I am done with you Mr. Dogtown.

What is your deal? Dogtown is giving you good advice. You have stated that you don't currently reside in your house in Texas. You're renting out that house and you're currently living in an RV in Iowa. So for the purpose of buying a firearm per federal law, you're a resident of Iowa.

If you go to buy a firearm and you use your Texas address as your state of residence, you'll be committing a felony; it doesn't matter what address is on your drivers license. And yet you're somehow upset about Tom pointing this out?

At this point you're breaking forum rules by stating your intent to commit a felony. Not only that, but I wouldn't recommend openly stating your intent to commit a felony on a public forum.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by Blindstitch

I'm pretty sure he's paying taxes on that said home and probably doesn't have a lease for his family living there.

Neither of those things make any difference when it comes to federal law regarding residency requirements for buying a firearm. It doesn't matter what's on your drivers license; it doesn't matter where you pay taxes; it doesn't matter where your state home of record is; it doesn't matter how many homes you own or where they are. All that matters is where you currently reside. Yes, you can use your drivers license to prove your residence, but if that address on your license isn't actually where you currently reside, then you can't use that address on the 4473.

The OP has stated that he's currently living in an RV in Iowa and he's renting out his home in Texas. That means he's currently a resident of Iowa for the purpose of buying a firearm per federal law.

Originally Posted by Blindstitch

If he finds the shotgun that he wants the only test will be filling out the 4473. If the DOJ says it's good then he's fine. If not then he can buy the shotgun in Texas. No big deal.

No. How will they automatically know if he's lying on the 4473 or not? He can easily lie on the form and claim his Texas residence as his current address, even though he's renting out that home and he doesn't currently live there.

Sure, it's highly unlikely that he'll get caught, but it's still a felony. And there's no automatic way for an authority to determine that he's lying about his address without an actual investigation.

I've had more than one customer fill out the 4473, pass their background check, and then right before I finished the sale they casually mention that they don't actually reside at the address they put on the 4473 (even though that's one of the first questions I ask before I have them start the form). At that point I have to stop the sale and sort things out, because they just admitted to me that they lied on the 4473.

[Blindstitch]

Sounds more like we have a list of guys that should get a hold of the ATF and have them address people who temporarily reside in RV's.

Nobody here wants a felony for being a legal gun owner just trying to practice their right.

Sounds like you better go home and sleep in your house for how ever long the ATF thinks is required to call your house your residence.

If an RV is parked in a garage or barn at your residence are you living there?

[Theohazard]

The issue isn't whether people who live in RVs are residents of that state, the issue is being able to prove it. The ATF doesn't "address" people, generally the state does. The problem is that it's often hard to get the state to recognize an RV as a residence and issue you the appropriate documentation to prove it.

At our shop, we've had customers who lived in RVs. Our state allowed them to use the address of their RV's parking spot as their official address, and this satisfied the federal residency requirements for the 4473.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by XDforever

I indeed have a residence in Texas and it is my mailing address. My daughter and her two kids rent my home from us.
[...]
As to your comment about ATF not allowing RVers to purchase guns, I have had zero trouble purchasing any of my firearms when in Texas. I actually added the XD Mod 2 9mm FDE handgun to my collection shortly before leaving Texas to come to Iowa.

I have a question for you: What you wrote here makes it look like you actually live in your RV even when you're in Texas. Are you simply using your house as a mailing address but not actually physically living there? Do you rent your house out even when you're in Texas and live in your RV instead? If that's the case, you committed a federal felony each time you bought a gun and put that address on the 4473.

[FITASC]

IF he parks his RV on his property when back in TX, then he can use that address; no different than someone adding a Mother-in-Law bungalow behind their house on the same property.

[XDforever]

We are at the address in question for at least 5 months out of the year.

My goodness, I never thought asking a simple question about purchasing a shotgun out of state would have brought this firestorm down upon my head. I am perfectly legal in Texas. My question only pertained to buying a gun out of state.

Thank you guys, Dogtown, and Theohazard, for pointing out the intricacies of the form 4473. I do believe I get it.

Can we now move on?

Joe

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by FITASC

IF he parks his RV on his property when back in TX, then he can use that address; no different than someone adding a Mother-in-Law bungalow behind their house on the same property.

True, that's a possibility I hadn't thought about.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by XDforever

We are at the address in question for at least 5 months out of the year.

My goodness, I never thought asking a simple question about purchasing a shotgun out of state would have brought this firestorm down upon my head. I am perfectly legal in Texas. My question only pertained to buying a gun out of state.

Thank you guys, Dogtown, and Theohazard, for pointing out the intricacies of the form 4473. I do believe I get it.

Can we now move on?

You seem to be taking this personally, but we're not trying to attack you at all, we're simply trying to help you avoid committing an inadvertent felony. We've both seen way too many people who didn't understand the federal residency requirements to buy a firearm. And this thread is a perfect example of that.

Several times in this thread you have indicated that you plan to commit a possible felony by falsely listing your Texas address on the 4473 even though you currently rent out that address and you're living in your RV. How is it that you seem offended for us pointing that out?

And I went back and noticed that you appeared to indicate that you don't even live at that address when you're in Texas, which would mean that you committed felonies every time you purchased your other guns and you didn't actually live at that address. You specially said you use that address as a mailing address. Now you say you actually do live at that address when in Texas, so that's fine, but you can see from your quote in post #38 that I might have gotten the wrong idea.

I'll leave it at this: Everything Tom and I have posted is correct. We're not attacking you, we're simply trying to help you avoid breaking the law. We've both seen this kind of thing happen many times before. However, if you have no interest in avoiding committing a felony, or if you believe you have satisfied the residency requirements set forth in 27 CFR 478.11 and clarified in ATF Ruling 2010-6, feel free to ignore our posts.

[XDforever]

Thanks for the post TheoHazard.

As I said, I am perfectly legal in Texas. The house is my house. I reside in my house at least 5 months of the year. I promise I am not ignoring your posts. I even thanked you for them twice.

Can we now move on?

Joe

[Theohazard]

No problem. I apologize if my posts made it feel like I was attacking you, that was not my intention.

[XDforever]

No problem here either. I think you can see by my user name I have been a member since 2006, but only have 69 posts. I do not like confrontations and misunderstandings. I rarely start new threads and only reply to just a few things. Sometimes what I am thinking in my head doesn't get put on the screen by the keyboard. I leave things out unfortunately. I guess it comes with getting old. You will be there someday.

Joe

[Dreaming100Straight]

Any dealer in Nevada who sells and transfers a handgun (or any firearm other than a rifle or shotgun) to someone who is not a Nevada resident will lose his FFL pretty darn quick.

DOGTOWN TOM. I was specifically talking about a shotgun and only meant to say that a CA resident would have no issues with CA law. As for NV law and what it requires of the dealer, I wouldn't know but that is not the buyer's problem, unless NV law provides that the buyer is in violation.

BigJimP. I think Tom is only trying to impress us with the fact that it is a Federal crime to misstate your place of residence on a 4473. I believe it is a felony punishable by 5 years imprisonment. While the likelihood of being prosecuted may be slim, stuff happens. I wondered why an ex-cop was prosecuted when he bought a gun for a relative. His crime was that he gave his name as the buyer when the actual buyer was the relative.

I found out that it was the reason he was an ex-cop. The guy had been a suspect in a bank robbery.

I think people usually get tripped up on the "little things" because someone rats them out; someone like a an ex-wife or a disgruntled co-worker. Unless they talk themselves into a prosecution.

[Dreaming100Straight]

You don't even have to own a home or lease an apartment. A homeless person on the streets of Los Angeles or New York is nevertheless a resident their respective states. The most important factor in determining residence, but ymmd depending on jurisdiction and the reason for which residency is an issue, is if you believe intend to reside in a particular state. Do you intend to return to that state whenever you are absent.

[BigJimP]

I still think many of you guys are beating this like a dead horse.../ although you mean well.

I think the key issue here ...is what does Iowa define as a "resident"... -- and I did not look it up so I don't know. The OP can look it up ...and see if he is in compliance or not --- but it makes no difference in terms of what the OP thinks he's doing there( he says he visiting and working a seasonal job there ) ...vs what the state defines as a resident.

I own a home in one state ( my drivers license is for that state, I pay taxes there, I register to vote there, etc..).... but there are 3 or 4 states where I visit for a few months at a time seasonally - in all of those 4 states, if I were to stay for 6 or 7 months in that state ( Arizona, Montana, Oregon, etc. - I would then be considered a resident of that state - which means I would need to give up my current drivers license, get a new drivers license, (give the state my new address - RV, rented condo, or whatever I was doing ), register my vehicle I have with me in that state, etc...

If you are working in a state - lets says I got a part time job at a resort of some type where I was staying - in some states, they define you as a resident right away when you go to work - and give you as little as 30 days for you to get a new drivers licenense, etc - although in some states there are exceptions for seasonal workers.

So by staying in Iowa for 7 months, and working --- he may in fact be an Iowa resident ( even though he might think he's still a TX resident )...and in fact he might have to get a new Iowa drivers license, switch your auto insurance to the new state, etc...whether he wants to or not ( and yes its a big hassle - so I don't stay in any of the states on my visits beyond a few months - and I don't work part time anywhere .../ or at home for that matter ...).

Do some people "visit" some states for more than 6 or 7 months --- and never switch their drivers license, address, re-register to vote, etc....sure, it happens all the time unless they get caught.
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I don't know if the OP is a resident of TX or Iowa.. its up to what Iowa defines as a Resident. It doesn't make any difference what he thinks or what he wants.

But regardless...all he was asking is if he can buy a long gun in a state he's visiting ...yes, usually you can - but there are exceptions.

[FITASC]

Do some people "visit" some states for more than 6 or 7 months --- and never switch their drivers license, address, re-register to vote, etc....sure, it happens all the time unless they get caught

In FL, we call them "snowbirds" and they do not change DLs or similar. Now some have changed as they realize that FL has no state income tax compared to IL, MI IN, etc. so they wind up becoming "reverse snowbirds" when they go back north for the warmer months.

[BigJimP]

Sure, AZ is same way - but what is definition of a resident in FL ?? ( AZ is 7 months)...

In FL ...does it change if you work part time..??