The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Semi-automatics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 11, 2017, 09:01 PM   #26
NateKirk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2013
Location: Detroit
Posts: 435
Quote:
the AR15 is considered a tactical, or fighting gun. It's what it was designed for, for both the military and the police. But it starting to look to me as if it's not so in its stock form
Hundreds of thousands of dead humans would disagree I'm sure.

Not that I was ever one of them, but I'm sure the people using these guns for their intended purpose are thinking of the task at hand, not whether lube "A" is preforming well or whether tacticool bull-CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED- "B" is good enough. It's a bullet launcher, a tool to accomplish a task and a stock Ruger AR off the wall of the local gunstore does the exact same thing as a top of the line Daniel Defense AR decked out in all the latest crap.

If people spent the money on ammo instead of nonsense they might be able to shoot better. However, some people just like guns, and aren't very interested in marksmanship or shooting in general for that matter.
__________________
“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".”

― --Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by NateKirk; February 11, 2017 at 09:29 PM.
NateKirk is offline  
Old February 13, 2017, 02:07 AM   #27
raimius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2008
Posts: 2,199
It's all about your intended use, and user preference.

Most "fighting carbine" set-ups include an optic and a light. Modern red-dots or low variable-power scopes are faster to use than irons. That said, the GI irons will serve you well from 0-500yds, if you do your part. Lights are nice if you might shoot in areas with dim/no lighting.

Extended latches help if you added stuff up top that obstructs the area around the charging handle (like big scopes), or the BCM version is designed to withstand more abuse from one side (the original design is prone to breakage after several thousand one-sided racks).

Add a sling, if you want to carry it a bunch.
Grips may or may not improve comfort or presentation speed, depending on the circumstances.
IR lasers are cool, if you have NVGs, and are shooting in the dark...which is pretty much nobody but predator control and the military.
Extended controls may make things easier to operate in a hurry, but also risk snagging.
Things like the BAD make one-handed operation easier.

Personally, I try to stop after adding an optic, light, sling, and maybe foregrip.
raimius is offline  
Old February 13, 2017, 08:32 AM   #28
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 11,132
Personally, I don't like the standard stock on the AR - so that would be something I replaced more for comfort.

I also used a stainless steel charging handle in one of my builds - I've never bent a charging handle, but for some reason that concerned me.

I find I prefer kind of rail system rather than polymer hand guards

I also like the "end cap" that screws into the rail system for a more completed look - doesn't do anything for function.

Optics or Irons, your choice.
Skans is offline  
Old February 13, 2017, 11:22 AM   #29
Fishbed77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 23, 2010
Posts: 4,862
Quote:
Nobody will argue that the AR15 is considered a tactical, or fighting gun.
Nope.

There are plenty of AR-15s built to serve as hunting rifles, competition guns, target rifles, defensive carbines, pest elimination rifles, general use truck guns, and .22LR plinking guns. Its modular design and proven reliability is what allows this.

The notion that all AR-15s are "fighting guns" just plays into media fantasy.
Fishbed77 is offline  
Old February 13, 2017, 12:17 PM   #30
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,829
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARSG12
But it starting to look to me as if it's not so in its stock form.
A traditional AR-15 that hasn't been modified works just fine as a defensive rifle. The only thing you need is some kind of sights (iron or optical) and a sling. And if you might end up in dark places, a flashlight is needed too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARSG12
BAD (Battery Assist Device) levers: In order to rack the charging handle on a stock AR, it takes 2 fingers. That's pretty detrimental compared to having a BAD lever, which allows racking the charging handle with the side of the left hand. But I've never seen videos that teach how to manipulate a stock charging handle.
Like others have pointed out, that's not what a BAD lever is. I think you're confusing a BAD lever with an extended charging handle.

You don't need an extended charging handle to rack an AR on just one side. An extended charging handle just makes it a little easier, that's it.

Here's the thing: Most of the things people add to their AR-15 don't change the way the rifle operates. They simply make it easier to attach accessories or they make it a little more ergonomic. But the idea that you have to heavily modify an AR-15 for it to be a functional fighting rifle is simply wrong.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old February 13, 2017, 12:37 PM   #31
bfoosh006
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2009
Posts: 1,088
The stock AR is most certainly GTG.

I prefer some of those add-ons.... just like my pizza, add some extra cheese, sauce and ham... and I like it better then the "stock" pizza.
bfoosh006 is offline  
Old February 13, 2017, 01:16 PM   #32
Dunsouth
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2017
Posts: 14
Learning to properly use a weapon is the most important thing you can do. A bunch of doo dads aren't going to make you Rambo. Good shooter/operator with a simple gun beats a poor shooter/operator with a decked out gun any day.
Dunsouth is offline  
Old February 14, 2017, 04:47 PM   #33
ARSG12
Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2016
Posts: 54
Quote:
I think you're confusing a BAD lever with an extended charging handle.
I guess you're right! I obviously don't have one on my rifle.

Quote:
You don't need an extended charging handle to rack an AR on just one side. An extended charging handle just makes it a little easier, that's it.
I've seen the technique of one-sided racking in training videos on Youtube, but can't really do it with my rifle which doesn't have an extended charging handle. Since that's the way the training was being done, I assumed this to be the correct way of operating an AR in a tactical situation--but is something my rifle doesn't allow me to do unless I change it from a stock AR to whatever is being used in the training videos.
ARSG12 is offline  
Old February 14, 2017, 05:35 PM   #34
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,829
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARSG12
I've seen the technique of one-sided racking in training videos on Youtube, but can't really do it with my rifle which doesn't have an extended charging handle.
If you're right handed, it's really easy to rack an AR-15 on one side using your left hand, even with a bone-stock non-extended charging handle. I do it all the time. Here's a video where Clint Smith does it several times:

https://youtu.be/1uFYWGCctKM

All an extended charging handle does is make it a little easier to grip the charging handle latch quickly.

Now, if you're left handed an ambidextrous charging handle can be helpful, but it's not 100% necessary. A left-hander can rack a standard charging handle with his right hand by tilting the rifle to the right and reaching over. With practice, this is pretty quick and easy (unless you have a scope in the way).
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old February 15, 2017, 07:35 AM   #35
CLC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2011
Posts: 603
I don't think new gun owners should be relying on YouTube for info until they have a general idea right from wrong. I suggest OP take a class ASAP.
__________________
In god we trust, all others must pay cash.
CLC is offline  
Old February 15, 2017, 03:17 PM   #36
ARSG12
Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2016
Posts: 54
Quote:
If you're right handed, it's really easy to rack an AR-15 on one side using your left hand, even with a bone-stock non-extended charging handle. I do it all the time. Here's a video where Clint Smith does it several times:
I see he does it by grabbing it on the left side with his fingers. When I try that, it's not very easy as he makes it look. Then again, I have a hard time racking the slide on my 9mm Springfield XD9 pistol. Everyone else make it look like it takes no effort at all.
ARSG12 is offline  
Old February 15, 2017, 04:11 PM   #37
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,829
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARSG12
I see he does it by grabbing it on the left side with his fingers. When I try that, it's not very easy as he makes it look. Then again, I have a hard time racking the slide on my 9mm Springfield XD9 pistol. Everyone else make it look like it takes no effort at all.
It's easy to do once you get the motion right. I see a lot of people who aren't pulling in the correct angle during the full stroke, so they're using a lot more strength than they have to, so it seems hard. This problem isn't due to a lack of an extended charging handle, it's due to a poor technique; they'd still have a hard time even if they had an extended charging handle.

It's similar to the "inspection arms" drill motion you learn in Marine Corps boot camp:

https://youtu.be/6XWAOWLyleU

The part in this drill movement where you pull back the charging handle is really hard for recruits to do at first, even the stronger ones. The reason for this is that it's difficult at first to get the angle correct; you have to make sure you're pulling straight back along the length of the rifle and not wasting energy by pulling at the wrong angle.

Racking an AR with your off-hand is the same way: Once you figure out the correct motion, it's easy. I have a female coworker who is 5'11" and weighs 120 lbs. and she has no problem doing it.

(On a side note, racking the slide on a pistol is the same principle: Do it properly and it's a lot easier. I know and work with a lot of instructors, and they all tell me that with the proper technique anyone who's not disabled in some way can rack almost any semi-auto handgun. The thing is, many people use a poor technique but make up for it by just using extra hand or arm strength.)
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old February 15, 2017, 05:55 PM   #38
Model12Win
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,854
It's all about what your battlespace requires. As an operator, you must choose what your platform needs to engage tangos. It all has to do with how you operate, but no, a stock AR is in no way shape or form usable as a tactical battle system as is. That's why tactical accessories were invented, and you should buy them.
Model12Win is offline  
Old February 15, 2017, 07:25 PM   #39
turtlehead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2015
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,203
I like to bring some eye drops and hand lotion into my battlespace. Sometimes my trigger finger gets itchy and dry. Not a good thing when engaging tangos.
turtlehead is offline  
Old February 15, 2017, 08:33 PM   #40
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Posts: 3,084
So I call the operator and dance the tango, but what do I do with the salsa I brought?

Don't worry about being "tactical". Tactical simply means relating to a tactic. If your tactic is to eliminate coyotes, have a gun by your bed for home emergencies, shoot targets, etc, then tactical is whatever is conducive to your goals.

The "operator" nonsense is just that. The only people who can rightfully call themselves operators probably don't and most likely don't go on internet forums asking about that kind of thing, so that's a moot point.
__________________
Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus)
Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others
You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.
dakota.potts is offline  
Old February 15, 2017, 10:11 PM   #41
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,235
Somehow the term "general purpose" was replaced with the word "tactical"
rickyrick is offline  
Old February 16, 2017, 04:52 PM   #42
ARSG12
Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2016
Posts: 54
Quote:
It's similar to the "inspection arms" drill motion you learn in Marine Corps boot camp
Thanks for that video! I'll try it and see if I can master the technique, or at least try to get the angle right to make it easier.

Quote:
The "operator" nonsense is just that. The only people who can rightfully call themselves operators probably don't and most likely don't go on internet forums asking about that kind of thing, so that's a moot point.
My bad on the terminology! I've heard that word used and assumed it simply referred to the person operating the rifle. I guess a better word would be "user" or "the shooter".

Quote:
Somehow the term "general purpose" was replaced with the word "tactical"
I guess that would be another wrong term I used. In this context, I was thinking of "tactical" as being a rifle that is meant for use against people rather than one that is designed around sitting at a bench and shooting at targets, or one that is designed for hunting.
ARSG12 is offline  
Old February 16, 2017, 05:55 PM   #43
Chris_B
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2007
Posts: 3,101
Oddly enough I was just looking through an American Rifleman magazine from December 1963.

On page 32- so those of you with the old magazine can play along with the home version of the game- there's a 2/3rd page bit on "AR-15 PROCUREMENT" which starts off by saying that the US Army contract for the AR-15 was 104,000 rifles.

Granted, exactly what the military's rifle is has changed a bit.

But I note a distinct lack of photos here. My un-tactical Colt:
Chris_B is offline  
Old February 16, 2017, 06:14 PM   #44
Theohazard
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2012
Location: Western PA
Posts: 3,829
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARSG12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theohazard
It's similar to the "inspection arms" drill motion you learn in Marine Corps boot camp
Thanks for that video! I'll try it and see if I can master the technique, or at least try to get the angle right to make it easier.
Sorry, I didn't mean to say that the technique itself was similar, what I meant was that the concept is similar: In both techniques, you need to apply force in the correct direction for the duration of the racking of the charging handle. In both techniques, people often have difficulty because they don't pull the charging handle straight back, so they're not being as efficient as they could be and they waste a lot of strength. Or they start pulling straight back at the beginning, and as they get farther reward they start pulling at an angle, making it much harder.
__________________
0331: "Accuracy by volume."
Theohazard is offline  
Old February 24, 2017, 02:38 PM   #45
wrdwrght
Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2011
Location: New Hampshire Seacoast
Posts: 27
I have a Colt 6920 inbound. I will keep it stock until something compels me to change it.

I might mount a light (for safety, should I promote my M4 to home-defense) and a red-dot (for fun, and, if SHTF, rapid target acquisition).

But the bare M16A1 I carried in Vietnam got the job done, amply, so I shall be content to (re)master my iron-sights in the next little while.
__________________
Don't put me in fear for my life.
wrdwrght is offline  
Old February 24, 2017, 02:45 PM   #46
Husqvarna
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 7, 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,000
the charging handle is rarely copied on other rifles, maybe that is a hint?

I don't have extensive experience with m16/ar15 platform but have fired one and just don't really care for the charging handle

any design that make you unable to cycle it with maintaining a proper checkweld is not ergonomic IMO
Husqvarna is offline  
Old February 24, 2017, 02:56 PM   #47
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Posts: 8,235
That's the kicker with ARs, that dang charging handle placement.
rickyrick is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.10711 seconds with 8 queries