Knife Vs Gun

[stonewall50]

[VIDEO]http://youtu.be/2fjMpn7JCJ0[/VIDEO]

Ok. So if you don't want to watch the whole video just observe some of the tactics. I got to thinking about this video and I see the light on it.

Imagine if you will (blah blah some scenario where knife vs gun). We all know the idea. A knife is easier to deploy. And it is deadly inside 7 yards. So I figure this is a good tactic for shooters to see.

Tl:dr

Sitting down when someone rushes you with a knife may be a life saver. It creates instant space and puts your legs out in front instead of your body. It adds extra distance too. Up to a yard or more.

[raimius]

Against a single attacker, with a small to medium knife, that might be a good tactic.

You still have a lot of arteries in the upper leg, and going to ground essentially cuts off your escape and movement options.

[Dragline45]

Sitting down would be the last thing I would do. The best thing you could do would be to stay mobile and back up from the threat to keep distance while you draw and fire. Why anyone would plant their butt on the ground to avoid a knife attack is beyond me.

Watch this video and tell me how well falling deliberately on the ground would have worked for him. This video should also be a wake up call for those that condone carrying on an empty chamber.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=664537763654007

[T. O'Heir]

A knife is only as good as of the user's skill.
"...Sitting down when someone rushes you with a knife may be a life saver..." Right up to when the criminal sticks it in you.
Don't get your training from Facebook or YouTube. Anybody with internet access can post on either of 'em.

[JeffK]

Might make sense if you know exactly what is coming, and you want to buy an extra few feet of distance and maybe a second of time in a contest for the cameras in a gym. How realistic a scenario that is, you decide...

[TXAZ]

T.O. Nailed it

A knife is only as good as of the user's skill.

Absolutely, and true for most any other tool.

[g.willikers]

Falling to the ground to gain time and distance is a tactic that's been promoted for many years, as a viable defense against a fast charging attacker.
It might come in handy, you never know.
The more options one has the better the chances.

[dayman]

We all know the idea. A knife is easier to deploy. And it is deadly inside 7 yards.

I disagree with that entire premise.

The only knife that I could deploy faster than my gun would be a fixed blade knife on my belt - a space that is currently taken up by my gun.
People who train a ton with knifes are probably faster drawing one from concealment, but so are people that train a ton with guns. It's basically the same movement for either draw, so I'd call it a wash.
Most any pocket folder is going to be slower unless you have a really awkward holster set up.
The entire idea that a knife is faster than a gun within 7 yards is built around the premise that the knife is already drawn, and the person wielding it is doing the attacking.
It really illustrates the advantage of surprise more than any advantage specific to knives.

A knife is only deadly within a yard or so. An attacker with a knife can be problematic out to 7 or so yards only because they can close the gap. A determined attacker with a gun doesn't have to close a gap.

I'm not saying a knife can't be an effective weapon, I'm just saying a gun is more effective.
And as a defensive weapon it's not even close.

As far as the video....
It was interesting.
It certainly illustrates the importance of moving during combat, but that applies no matter what.
I was never under the impression that carrying a gun made me invulnerable to being sneaked up on and stabbed in a crowd. I'm more concerned about fending off would-be robbers, or crazed meth-heads than I am about direct assassination attempts.

[2123]

I've yet to encounter an assailant with a knife as a civilian.

But, as a police officer, I encountered quite a few. Only once, did I get caught off-guard.

Domestic dispute, hubby was going to jail, wife decided that he wasn't all that bad I guess, and decided to pull a large butcher knife from a kitchen counter and caught me with it.

Long story made short, I got stuck, but she ended up with a shattered jaw.

[Snyper]

Long story made short, I got stuck, but she ended up with a shattered jaw.

That's why knives aren't a good choice for defensive weapons.

They put you too close

I also agree it's foolish to sit down when being attacked

[2123]

I don't like the idea of going to the ground no matter the reason or form. On your butt, your side, back or stomach, you are limited as to your mobility responses.

I've been in plenty of hand to hand physical altercations, and not once in any scenario, did I feel better on the ground, rather than up and on my feet.

[kraigwy]

Why not just learn to draw and shoot while setting down. Its not all that hard.

Think about how much time we spend setting down.

Think about car jacking, home invasions while setting down watching TV or playing on the computer.

It takes less then three seconds to kick through most doors...............at my age it takes me longer to get up.

Who stands when eating at a restaurant?

Of course most people don't have access to their guns while at home. They have to get up, run to the bedroom and get it out of the lock box or under the mattress. That's the problem that needs addressed.

I can draw my gun while setting faster then I can dig my pocket knife out of my pocket.

Knife fighting is an art few master. Don't have to be in shape to use a revolver.

Ever wonder why they call the revolver the equalizer? Never heard a knife called an equalizer.

[AK103K]

Im thinking not to many actually watched the video.

Sitting down/falling on his back, was just one option. They went over a couple and why for each.

I can see the falling on the back working in a last ditch, and/or restricted movement area, but I would prefer the "get off the X" and roll out to the side version.

Regardless what you might choose or think, the reasoning is discussed in the last minute of the clip, and brings up probably the most valid point. The gun person usually stands still/in one place and "tries" to deal, and in doing so, severely limits his options, and stands (no pun), a good chance of losing.

This whole thing was more about ways to deal with the Tueller 21' knife rule, which still seems to be lost on some people. A lot of what goes on in the video, shows it is something to reckoned with, and something to prepare for. Keep in mind here too, these boys both know whats coming and are prepared for it. More than likely, in real life, you wont be the one to know, and youre not likely to respond as quickly.

For those who think a knife isnt a viable weapon at a distance, perhaps you should watch the video, and others like it.

Knife fighting is an art few master. Don't have to be in shape to use a revolver.

Ill bet more have been killed over time (and Ill be nice, and say since the revolver has been around) by "untrained" knife people, than even trained revolver users.

Id like to see a video of what they were doing with the gun guy having a revolver (or pocket auto) in his pocket and his hand at his side, in his pocket, sitting, whatever, do the same drill.

As far as the "in shape" thing, keep in mind the boys in that video appear to be in pretty good shape. If youre not, dont you think your odds are going south pretty quick, if the other guy is, gun or not?

I know quite a few people who carry guns. More than not would have trouble just drawing their guns while quickly moving off line. If that fits you, you may want to think about working on getting into "reasonable" shape. Why make it any easier for someone wanting to do you harm?

It amazes me sometimes how gun people, or even people in general, seem to think/treat the knife as a lesser weapon. Guns "can" be an equalizer, but only if youre prepared, and better yet, practiced to use one.

[Jo6pak]

I got the same feeling as AK103k did after watching the videa and then reading the posts.

I couldn't have said it better myself...unless I had said it first

[Snyper]

For those who think a knife isnt a viable weapon at a distance, perhaps you should watch the video, and others like it.

It's not a "viable weapon" until it's close enough to touch you
Until then it's only a "threat"

[AK103K]

You didnt watch the video, did you?

At the distances involved, the knife can be to you, before you ever have a chance to draw your gun, or put it to use. If thats the case, how viable is your gun?

Thats much of the point here. The "threat" is much greater than many give it credit. Whats trying to be solved here, is how best to negate it. You can go on all you want about the knife not being a threat to someone at distance, but youre only doing yourself, and those you may convince, a disservice.

[Snyper]

At the distances involved, the knife can be to you, before you ever have a chance to draw your gun, or put it to use. If thats the case, how viable is your gun?

You can fabricate all the possible scenarios you like, but it won't change the reality that to actually USE a knife you have to be at less than arms length.

That has nothing to do with whether or not one can deploy their own weapon.

These scenarios are always narrowly scripted, and assume the one with the gun will stand there motionless, waiting to be cut

It's not like this hasn't already been talked about for the last 30 years.

At 20 ft you're very likely to get shot before you can do much cutting

[AK103K]

At 20 ft you're very likely to get cut before you can do much shooting.

There, I fixed it for you.

Hey, you can always get an Airsoft that fits your holster, and a chalked rubber knife, and make a video proving "your" point, and prove me wrong.

[Snyper]

There, I fixed it for you.

Hey, you can always get an Airsoft that fits your holster, and a chalked rubber knife, and make a video proving "your" point, and prove me wrong.

The tests have been done countless times
I didn't make it up

Like I said before, this is a 30 year old debate

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

Mythbusters covered the drill in the 2012 episode "Duel Dilemmas". At 20 feet the gun wielder was able to shoot the charging knife attacker just as he reached the shooter.

At shorter distances the knife wielder was always able to stab prior to being shot.[4]

The guy with the knife gets shot in both scenarios, even though they all require the shooter to remain where he is.

Anyone with half a brain will be moving too.

[dayman]

I think maybe people are having two parallel arguments: arguing about the effectiveness of attacking with a knife vs. the effectiveness of defending with one.

I'd think that it's pretty obvious that a person with a knife can be very dangerous in many situations - regardless of whether you have a gun.
- as they pointed out in the video, a person with a knife can wait until they're far closer than 20ft to draw their knife, etc. etc.

However, I don't buy the argument that a knife is a particularly effective defensive weapon.
- it's not much (if any) faster to deploy, and only works at contact distance forcing you to close distance instead of making it.

The effectiveness of knives vs. guns depends entirely on surprise. To me the "21 foot rule" really just illustrates the danger of any attacker catching you unaware.

[OldMarksman]

Mythbusters covered the drill in the 2012 episode "Duel Dilemmas". At 20 feet the gun wielder was able to shoot the charging knife attacker just as he reached the shooter.

Any realistic expectation of what the bullet(s) would do will make one realize that the defender would be in a world of hurt.

To, me, the drill simply tells on that the defender had better be able to recognize and react to the developing attack instantly; start moving; draw fast, with being burdened by extra steps such as disengaging a safety, unless that step is an easy, integral part of presentation; and achieve several hits very fast.

[TimSr]

Ever hear the expression "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"?

[OldMarksman]

Ever hear the expression "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"?

That's really not the point.

Any citizen may be attacked somewhere by surprise by someone with a contact weapon.

That someone may kill or inflict serious injury.

[Snyper]

Any realistic expectation of what the bullet(s) would do will make one realize that the defender would be in a world of hurt.

"Realistic expectation"?

It doesn't seem realistic to me to assume the knife will make a killing or even debilitating strike on the first attempt.

Why is it more realistic to assume the knife would be immediately deadly or incapacitating, but the bullets ineffectual?

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Snyper: It doesn't seem realistic to me to assume the knife will make a killing or even debilitating strike on the first attempt.

Why is it more realistic to assume the knife would be immediately deadly or incapacitating, but the bullets ineffectual?

Second point first: bullets that hit will not be "ineffectual". It's just that it is extremely unlikely that they would stop a charging assailant immediately in his tracks.

To the first point: a stab wound will likely be serious. Period. "Killing"? Maybe not. But so what?