Giraud trimmer

[tmorg]

Here is a short video of my new Giraud trimmer.I dont know how trimming can get any easier than this.

[Scorch]

That's cute. Only problem: it's not a trimmer, it's a case chamfering tool. A trimmer trims the case to a particular length, it does not just remove metal randomly.

[Sport45]

The Giraud trimmer is indeed a trimmer and a very good one at that. The length is indexed off the shoulder so the case has to be sized first. Of course, the case should be sized prior to trimming with any tool.

Where the Giraud really shines is when you have to trim hundreds of once fired brass. It trims and chamfers in one operation.

Tmorg,
Welcome to The Firing Line! Stick around and join the discussions. I think you'll like it here.

[Hommbs]

BEST trimmer....unfortunately also the most expensive. Got mine too!!!

[infantrytrophy]

As I understand it, the Giraud machine trims and does the inside and outside neck chamfer/debur operations. I have seen many positive recommendations from experienced high power competitiors.

I would love to get one of these, but I have two reservations. One is the cost, of course, but you get what you pay for.

The second question relates to trim length. This unit indexes on the case shoulder. Theoretically, after the resizing step your cases should be consistent in length from the base to the case shoulder. Therefore, the total case length after the Giraud trimming operation should be consistent.

However, I have noticed that my cases are not consistent after resizing. By this I mean the case headspace, or length from the base to the shoulder, as checked on an RCBS Precision Mic. Using a Redding type S sizing die, my .223 cases vary by as much as .004" after resizing. These are once-fired cases previously fired in different rifles, all in good condition, all with BHA (Black Hills) Match headstamp. The die was adjusted so that the shoulder would be set back to at least as much as the cases with the shortest headspace measurement (measured prior to resizing).

For those of you who check your case headspace, or length from base to shoulder datum line, do you see this variation after sizing?

I can think of only one reason for this - variation in "springback" of the brass.

Whatever the reason, I figure that if I use the Giraud trimmer then my cases would vary in overall length because the trimmer indexes on the datum line.

Any comments?

[Sport45]

I don't crimp any of my bottleneck rifle loads, so .004" wouldn't bother me a bit. Unless, of course, that .004" put it out of tolerance for overall length.

[Sevens]

Well, maybe I'm on the wrong track here, but don't most typical non-belted rifle calibers headspace on shoulder? If so, than having the correct trim length from shoulder to case mouth is what's important, and the rest isn't as important. (as long, of course, as they chamber)

Proper trim length gives you three things:
1) ability to chamber the round
2) safeguard against pinching the case mouth and exponentially rising pressure
3) consistency for the purpose of accuracy/repeatability

Using this trimmer that indexes off the shoulder should effectively guarantee you both #2 and #3, but if you have brass where the length from base to shoulder varies quite a bit, no other style of trimmer is going to keep you from #2 or perhaps #1. That's a whole separate issue that needs to be remedied by something other than trimming.

To put it another way--if your OAL is the same between two pieces of brass... but your base to shoulder length varies by a large margin you are going to have problems if that case mouth ends up sneaking out of the chamber.

With that line of thinking, it's only the price that oughta be keeping you from buying this trimmer!
(I think? Good discussion.)

[Slamfire]

Well, maybe I'm on the wrong track here, but don't most typical non-belted rifle calibers headspace on shoulder? If so, than having the correct trim length from shoulder to case mouth is what's important, and the rest isn't as important

Totally agree. But shill gunwriters don't measure off the shoulder, and the equipment they shill for, that stuff trims brass based on case length.

And that is what people read.

However, you can still produce acceptable ammunition if you trim based on case length.

Trim length is primarily a safety consideration. In a hand held rifle, stock weld, sight alignment and trigger pull are far more critical to consistent accuracy than trim length.

But that does not sell reloading gadgets.

[AMX]

I resisted buying a Giraud trimmer for a while because I had (still have) a electric RCBS trimmer. I though the Giraud could'nt be any faster. Boy was I wrong.

I could never go back to using the RCBS now.

[infantrytrophy]

To Sevens:

You sly devil! You knew I wanted to buy that trimmer!

I like your logic, but there is another fly in the ointment.

Say you have sized your cases, then trimmed/chamftered/deburred with the Giraud wonder machine. Now you are ready to prime, load powder and seat the bullet.

Your sizing die will seat the bullet based on the OAL indexed on the case head, not the shoulder. Assumming that I am right, that your sizing die will alow the case-to-shoulder length to vary by 0.004" or so, then your seating depth will also vary by that amount. This is because the trimmer indexes on the shoulder and the bullet seater indexes on the case head.

Is that insignificant? Let's say that I want to seat the bullet off the lands by 0.015". Do you think that the variance of seating depth of as much as 0.004" is insignificant and can be ignored? I am looking for enough accuracy for high power target competitions, not for bench rest-type accuracy.

[Sevens]

Ahhh... Good call my friend!

Your point makes perfect sense, but I'll still defer to the part where I said, "if your base to shoulder length varies by a large margin, you are going to have problems."
No matter what kind of trimming system you employ, trimming won't fix that dimensional hurdle.

But yep, you are correct--now the seating depth of the bullet is going to be affected.

I guess the way I see it is this... if you want to set yourself for the most consistency, you are going to start with consistent brass. New brass, from the same maker, from the same lot. Starting there, you should have all lengths within an acceptable tolerance. If you don't, some should be weeded out.

When you have a decent "control" group, you shouldn't thereafter see any variations of base-to-shoulder length, should you? If you do, you've either got a wonky chamber or a bad sizing die or an erratic technique with the press.

This whole discussion has been thought provoking.
In the end however, you still want this trimmer!

For me, I'm more frugal than most. And all my .223 gets delivered down range through a super 14" Contender barrel. So I don't need speed, which I think is the key feature of this cool trimmer.

But yeah... I think you need to get one! <g>

[Westcoastr]

i too am getting an uneven shoulder in all my rifle brass after sizing, but found that it is my RCBS progressive press that is flexing, so what ever part of the case is to the outside of the press will not get its shoulder pushed back as much. thus my Giruad will not trim straight no matter what as it indexes off of the shoulder. anyone else figured out a way to fix this? i've tried shimming the press every way and even rotating the brass 180 deg and sizing again in hopes of evening-out the problem but no success.

[Bullet94]

tmorg
Your supposed to have the trimmer shaft vertical when you use it. See here Fig. 3 -

http://www.giraudtool.com/Giraud%20Trimmer.pdf


From Giraud-

Since the case trimmer locates each case by the case shoulder, if your headspace dimensions on the resized brass are not consistent, then the case can't be trimmed to a uniform dimension. I suggest the use of some type of headspace measuring device to monitor your resizing operation.

Tips, Tricks & Special Requests

Flipping the trimmer vertical allows you to let the brass shavings naturally drop away from the cutter and shell holder. If you use the trimmer horizontally,
eventually you will get shavings inside the case holder. With shavings in the case holder, the index for the case shoulder is no longer true. Your cases will
come out longer.

.

[FloppingAces]

If you do any high volume work high powered rifle cases, this is a must have.

Tried everything else out there personally; I honestly went through 5 or 6 different setups before I said the hell with it. Green ones, yellow ones, red ones, orange ones, black ones, metal ones; they all suck compaired to this cutter.

If you do different case sizes, get the replacement head and cutter... Well worth the money, and easy to swap out.

Save your pennies nickels and dimes and buy one of these you high volume loaders; you'll thank me later.

HAND MADE and shipped by Giraud family, his wife is customer service, the kids help pack your things in state of the art packing materials...

It's nice to see something made at home right here in the USA, and it made me smile a little bit knowing that I actually found a quality product made here at home.

Really guys, this is a must buy for the high volume bottle neck case loader.

[PCJim]

+1 with Sevens.

I went through the same thought processes when deciding on a trimmer. Do you trim based on overall case head to mouth dimension (ie, Lee, Wilson, Forster, etc) or off the shoulder datum (Possum Hollow, Giraud). I decided that the best reference point is the shoulder, as this is what the bottleneck cases are designed to chamber upon. Purchased the Possum Hollow trimmers due to limited calibers and reduced overall cost. (Keep in mind that the PH trimmers are caliber specific, and if you are trimming many various calibers, a stable of their trimmers would become expensive.)

Yes, you can experience "minor" variances in your overall case length (head to mouth) due to inconsistent shoulder setback after sizing. However, as Sevens stated above, this should not be a cause for concern. Overall COL will not be effected on your reloads as your bullet seating will be based on overall length. If you are using cannelured bullets, you may find that your cannelure does not align consistently with the case mouth. That being said though, what you should have is more consistent bullet to rifling jump in casings trimmed from the shoulder datum v. overall length, which should provide for more accurate groups.

[gisguy]

i reload .223 for an AR15, per Redding tech support i adjusted my resizing die 1/8 turn past touching the shell holder. Since doing this all my brass trims within +/- .002 OAL. so simple, my 12 year old daughter helps.