.338-06?

[Stats Shooter]

So I'm having 2nd thoughts on what to chamber my Mauser 98 action rifle in. It is going to be a hunting rifle used on elk, big mule deer and possibly moose this fall.

I'm curious about the .338-06. The ballistics on it are fairly impressive as it will push a 220 gr bullet up to almost 2750 fps....That's only about 75 fps slower than my dad's .338 win mag with the same bullet! I hand load so finding ammo is no problem, I can neck up an '06 case or just buy brass when I find some and it won't get fired too often.

Just wanted to know if anyone had any experience with one.

Thanks

[olddav]

Well I've got one (338-06) on a Savage action with a 26" Shilen barrel. I shoot Hornady 225 grain bullets on 55 grains of IMR 4350, the brass is necked up 30-06 brass. Now I'm only running about 2550fps with this load but it shoots sub MOA so thats good enough fo me.

[GeauxTide]

My gunsmith and I were planning an Elk trip long ago which we never were able to schedule. Had a Shilen barrel, throated for 250 grain Noslers placed on my 700 LH. Pushes 200 Hornadys to 2810 and 210 Noslers to 2750 from 22". Lookup Steve Timm, who wrote a fabulous article on the subject. For grins, 200s and 210s print to same POI. Don't shoot it after two back surgeries, but it would be my first choice for large deer and elk. RCBS has dies and it is a pleasure to load for. I've only used the Timm recommended 4320 and the extreme spread is generally under 30fps. 55gr give 200 Hornadys 2694.

[Stats Shooter]

Geaux tide: it would be my first choice for large deer and elk. RCBS has dies and it is a pleasure to load for

Looking at the ballistics, I can see why you would choose it.

Olddav: in my experience, the most accurate load is rarely at or near max velocity.

One comment though, I suppose it isn't as popular despite its performance because it is so similar to the .338 win mag. But in my case, it is a great option because the action I am building off of would need a good bit of work to go up into the belted magnum bolt face size and I may have feeding issue. Therefore, with a .338-06 I can use my 1917 G98 Mauser action but get magnum performance.

And anyone who has hunted elk knows that sometimes you need good long range knockdown power or else you may have to pass up a shot (if you are concerned about ethics).

But I am seriously leaning towards the .338...And I also like shilen barrels (like the previous two comments)

[Wyosmith]

I have made a lot of them, and owned 4 myself. I have killed deer and elk with them. I love the shell. I recommend them highly.

It's basically the same as the old 333 Jeffery of African fame as far as it's ballistics go, and just like it's predecessor, it does all you'd want it to do. In fact, my guess is that it will out preform the 333 because we have better bullets available now then were available in Africa in the teens and 20s.

If you have a GEW length Mauser it's very simple to make a 338-06. A small amount of action work is needed to move the feed-lip shoulders forward to the 06 shell length from the 8MM shell length, but other than that, it's just a re-barrel job and you are set.

As you have seen, it's not far behind the 338 Win Mag with 200-225 grain bullets. It is still a super good killer with 250s. In fact, other then a bit more curve in it's trajectory I have not see any real advantage to the magnum over the 38-06 and yes, I have owned and used both, so I do have a side by side comparison. But you can get top performance with 2" less barrel. You also get 2 more rounds in the mag, and as a rule you can do all you want with about 1 pound less gun-weight.
There's just nothing to dislike.

[Stats Shooter]

wyosmith: But you can get top performance with 2" less barrel

You mean a 24" for the .338-06 vs a 26" barrel on the belted mag right?

[Wyosmith]

Actually I should have calcified. I was speaking of a 24" 338 mag and a 22" 338-06. Some 338 mags have 26" barrels, but they do just fine with a 24"

The 30 cal magnums need the 26" barrels to gain all the advantage of the powder charge, but going up from a .308 to a .338 give quite a bit of room to burn powder.

[olddav]

Mississippi,

One thing you will need is a good recoil pad (1inch), 225 grain bullets are uncomfortable to shoot without it. I had an old hard orange rubber recoil pad on mine, after every shot my hand would tingle. Thinking that this has to be causing some problems in my shoulder, I installed a new "Limb Saver" pad and didn't care what it cost. Now I can shoot approx 15 to 18 rounds before I start to get sore.

[Stats Shooter]

oddav:
One thing you will need is a good recoil pad (1inch), 225 grain bullets are uncomfortable to shoot without it.

Yessir! I shoot a .300 win mag often and my .338 LM. I'm not recoil sensitive but I'm also not a fan of bruised shoulders so I use limb savers and muzzle breaks. When I was doing load development on my .270 hunting rifle I slipped on a limb saver too. I don't hunt with big recoil pads but if I'm going to shoot several rounds I pad up!

[taylorce1]

I have two rifles chambered in .338-06, both have 24" barrels. I bought my first one around 2003, a 03A3 built by High Tech Custom Rifles for $600 at a local shop on consignment . It's an absolute tack driver with 200 grain Hornady SP bullets at nearly 2900 FPS. I load it .5 grains below max with RL15 from Hornady's 8th edition manual, I have found this rifle to closely match the Hornady data. I've used it to kill a couple of pronghorn, but have yet to connect with anything else.







My second is a stainless steel M70 Classic, with Pac-Nor 3 groove super match barrel, and McMillan stock. I had it built by Weaver Rifles about four years ago. Unfortunately life has gotten in the way, a new job, moving for the job, and shattering my leg and missing a year of work has set me back working with this rifle. I hope to rectify that this year and use it on a 2018 bull elk hunt.

[hooligan1]

Im reading all these replies, wondering just why the heck dont I have one chambered for this cartridge, of course our deer doesnt take this much power to bring them down, but it would be an interesting cartridge to load and shoot...

[jmr40]

I won't try to talk you out of it, but there is a reason it isn't a mainstream cartridge. A local gunshop had a really nice custom in 338-06 several years ago at a very attractive price. It had a high end Zeiss scope on it that was worth the asking price for the whole package. I bought the gun for the scope planning to sell the rifle. But it came with a box of reloads that I shot 1st. I ended up buying dies and bullets and kept it for several years before going back to plan "A".

I didn't keep it for several reasons. Recoil was part of it. Lots of folks will try to tell you that you easily beat 30-06 performance without magnum recoil. Don't be fooled, just because it doesn't have magnum on the stamp doesn't mean anything. I found that I was getting magnum recoil with performance only slightly, if any better than 30-06.

With the best loads a 30-06 shooting high BC 200 gr bullets will leave the muzzle at the same speeds as 338-06 with 225 gr bullets. At ranges out to around 300 yards the 338-06 has more energy, but at those ranges both have more than enough. Beyond 300 yards the 30-06 has the edge in energy due to more aerodynamic bullets. And the 30-06 does it with less recoil. The 338-06 doesn't show any real advantage over 30-06 until you start shooting 250 gr bullets in it, and even then the difference is small.

A difference of .03" bullet diameter will have zero effect on game. In fact there have been multiple studies and tests done concluding that the heavier 200-220 bullets fired from 30-06 or 300 mag out penetrate all 33 and 35 caliber bullets. You don't see a gain in performance over 30 caliber until you reach 375.

Most of the above seems negative. I don't dislike the 338-06, just want you to be fully informed. Of all the 30-06 offspring I think the 280 and 338-06 are the most useful and the two I'd most likely use again. But for me I have a couple of 30-06 rifles with too much history to sell and I didn't see the 338-06 offering anything but more recoil. And for about the same recoil a 300 mag loaded with heavier bullets easily outperforms 338-06 at all ranges.

Make no mistake, it'll kill stuff and shoots flat enough. It is certainly cooler to say you own a 338-06 than it is to say you own a 30-06 or 300 WM which it seems almost everyone owns. But performance and recoil wise it fits right in between those two much more common rounds.

[Stats Shooter]

With the best loads a 30-06 shooting high BC 200 gr bullets will leave the muzzle at the same speeds as 338-06 with 225 gr bullets. At ranges out to around 300 yards the 338-06 has more energy, but at those ranges both have more than enough.

It is always the case that with relatively lighter bullets, modestly larger cases perform the same as a relatively smaller case with similar bore diameter.

The .308 and .30-06 are almost identical using bullets below about 175 gr...But above 180 graines the .30-06 begins out performing the 308.

Same thing with this cartridge.

[MarkCO]

.338-06 is easily my favorite hunting cartridge. I have a Weatherby Ultralight that printed a 3/8" initial group for 3 rounds at 100 yards, and still prints that about 500 rounds down the tube. I have shot a lot of deer and elk with it.

Recoil is subjective. I shot a Ruger 77 in .30-06 that I thought kicked hard, enough so that I started to question my loads. Just the combo of fit, stock and pad did not agree with me. My .338-06 kicks slightly more than my R700 in .30-06 which weights 2 pounds more.

[old roper]

Interesting reading.

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Know...+A-Square.html

[Stats Shooter]

I read the link posted by old roper. One of the key points i believe is that the .33 cal bullets do not inflict as much damage at muzzle velocites below 2600 fps....But, the thing is, the .338-06 pushes many bullet weights well above 2600 fps.

According to hodgdon's load data, the .338-06 is capible of 2,750 fps with a 210 grain Nosler partition, 2,772 with a 215 grain sierra game king, and 2,671 with a 225 grain speer bt soft point.

For comparison, the .30-06 is capible of 2,520 fps with a 208 grain hornady A-Max and 2,450 fps with the 220 grn round nose.

I would likely opt for the 210 partition or 225 grain speer in a .338-06 giving me an additional 250-300 fps over the .30-06 with similar bullet weights.

Across the board, the .338-06 is around 140 fps slower than the .338 win mag. with 225 gr nosler partitions the .338-06 is about 140 fps slower and 135 fps slower using 210 grain partitions.

So in summary, performance wise, the .338-06 is close to the .338 win mag. So i think this is the direction I will go with this rifle since I have the mauser action already.....

The other thing is, I already have 2 .308 rifles and a .270...So there really is no need in my arsenal for a .30-06. if a .308 is a bit under powered for what I want to do, the .30-06 isnt that much more powerful so I would rather take a bigger step up.

Thanks again all of you . I really like this forum.

[disseminator]

I have a Mauser Rifle build on deck as soon as I finish my current M700-7mm08 and for all the reasons you identified in you original post, I have decided to go with the 9.3x62mm Mauser cartridge over some other options like 338-06 and 35 Whelen.

Reason number one: factory ammo is available from many different manufacturers. Number two: it was tailor made for the k98 action and so won't require modifications like some other calibers. Three: Cartridge OAL.

All the main sources have reloading data for 9.3 Mauser and Brass is available from Lapua, Norma, Nosler, etc. and if that doesn't work out, form it from 06 brass.

Lastly for me the .366" 250 grain Accubond has a .494 BC and will give great performance exceeding 2600 fps in most barrel lengths common to the cartridge.

Just another option for you to consider.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by disseminator

Lastly for me the .366" 250 grain Accubond has a .494 BC and will give great performance exceeding 2600 fps in most barrel lengths common to the cartridge.

I think you're a little optimistic on your velocity with the 9.3X62. Very few published loads have any 250 grain bullet near 2600 fps most don't exceed the mid 2500's. I'm not saying there aren't loads out there that get to 2600 fps but they aren't easily found.

Originally Posted by jmr40

With the best loads a 30-06 shooting high BC 200 gr bullets will leave the muzzle at the same speeds as 338-06 with 225 gr bullets. At ranges out to around 300 yards the 338-06 has more energy, but at those ranges both have more than enough. Beyond 300 yards the 30-06 has the edge in energy due to more aerodynamic bullets.

If you compare the Accubond bullets a 200 grain .308 has a .588 BC, the .338 225 has a BC of .550. This means it takes 800+ yards for the 200 grain bullet to have more energy than the 225 grain bullet. If both bullets leave the barrel at 2550 fps at 1000 yards the 200 grain bullet has -29.8 MOA of drop and the 225 grain bullet has -31.4 MOA of drop. Windage has the 200 grain bullet at 6.7 MOA for full value, and the 225 grain has 7.5 MOA. I don't see that as a huge difference, since I doubt many people will be using either cartridge with that heavy of bullets past 400 yards anyway.

[disseminator]

I may be a little optimistic on 2600, but Nosler lists a max load of IMR4064 at 2582 fps so it's not that far off.

I was about 2660 via Quickload but have yet to load a single round so I will have to defer to others who have more experience with the cartridge.

[taylorce1]

What powders on QL got you to 2660, what was the pressure listed? There are new powders out there that squeeze more velocity than ever before out of a cartridge. I don't doubt you can't get 2600 fps if the right conditions exist in a rifle, but I'd still say it isn't a common speed.

[disseminator]

I'm not at the bench right now, so I can't tell you pressure specifically but was under max pressure for sure.

The powder was my personal favorite: Ramshot Hunter

[taylorce1]

Here is what I get with QL and Hunter doesn't get there without exceeding 110% load ratio.

Cartridge          : 9.3 x 62
Bullet             : .366, 250, Nosler AccuBond 59756
Useable Case Capaci: 63.935 grain H2O = 4.151 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.290 inch = 83.57 mm
Barrel Length      : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 55700 psi, or 384 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-17                 106.4     65.8     4.26    2647    99.1    55700    9038   1.108  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550                    108.1     65.1     4.22    2602    97.4    55700    8781   1.127  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                       105.4     65.7     4.26    2593    94.5    55700    8773   1.121  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760                     105.4     65.7     4.26    2593    94.5    55700    8773   1.121  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350                      110.0     64.8     4.20    2573    97.2    53243    8638   1.153  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old                      103.1     61.4     3.98    2569    99.4    55700    8214   1.146  ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP                          110.0     64.1     4.16    2568    97.1    53331    8597   1.142  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter                     110.0     66.9     4.34    2562    94.8    53231    8740   1.141  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064                      103.2     59.5     3.86    2554   100.0    55700    7736   1.168  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520                       95.5     59.4     3.85    2548   100.0    55700    7727   1.151  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380                       101.9     61.3     3.98    2547    97.0    55700    8253   1.143  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204                          109.4     66.6     4.31    2544    91.4    55700    8460   1.124  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495                       97.2     56.0     3.63    2537   100.0    55700    7395   1.175  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460                       90.9     57.7     3.74    2508    99.8    55700    7492   1.162  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC                       102.9     61.5     3.99    2499    93.6    55700    7981   1.149  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                110.0     62.7     4.06    2473    97.9    48817    7919   1.187  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780             110.0     68.4     4.43    2419    88.9    49410    7913   1.189  ! Near Maximum !

[disseminator]

Sorry, it was BIG GAME, not HUNTER.

63.3g - 56312 psi - 2660 fps - 100.8% fill - 34.2% efficient.

But we are digressing....

CAUTION: The following post includes load data generated by calculation in QuickLOAD software based on a particular powder lot, the assumption the primer is as mild as possible, and assumptions about component, chamber and gun geometry that may not correspond well to what you have. Such data should be approached by working up from published starting loads. USE THIS DATA AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL, nor QuickLOAD's author nor its distributor assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information or information derived from it.

[black mamba]

My Whelen AI will get 2600 with 250s in a 24 in bbl, so the 9.3x62 (slightly more capacity and more diameter) will do it as well. RL-17 as shown above is excellent, as is Alliant's Power Pro 2000-MR. If you're using a modern rifle, 55k psi is artificially low as well, since other similar cartridges go to 60k+.

The 9.3x62 was not very available back in the '80s when I had my Whelen built, but it's ballistics are about the best of the non-magnum medium bores. The advantage of the Whelen over either the 338-06 or the Mauser is the abundance of pistol bullets which can be fired as well, for practice or small game.

[Stats Shooter]

My Whelen AI will get 2600 with 250s in a 24 in bbl,

I believe it. Hodgdon has H4350 (59.8 gr) pushing a 250 gr hornady SP 2540 fps in a .338-06....And I can often do a little better than hodgdon (and sometimes a little worse).

Hornady has their 250 gr bullets doing about 2600 fps in .338-06. and thier 250 gr bullets chambered in 9.3x62 maxing out at 2450. (The .35 Whelen tops out at 2500 fps)

I'm sure you can do better than 2450 fps in the 9.3, but all the data I have found says the .338-06 will push a 225-250 gr bullet as fast or faster than either the .35 or 9.3 mm.

And if I really wanted to duplicate the .338 win mag exactly, I would go to a .338-06 AI Which gets the exact same velocities as the .338 wm (about 130 fps faster than the .338-06 A square). But there is just no reason too.

The longest shot I have ever taken on a deer, elk, antelope, etc was 375 yards.a 225 gr BTSP doing 2750 fps will do that easily