.243 vs 6.5 Creedmoor for Whitetail and General Hunting

[Whistlebritches]

Originally Posted by briandg

That round doesn't even come close to being the low recoil round that he is looking for. Why do you think that will work?

I shoot either 117 gr SST's or BTSP's over 50 grains of IMR 4831 in a Browning A-Bolt.I watch the animals hit reaction through the scope.So either you know squat about the 25-06 or ........well there is no or,you know squat about the recoil of a 25-06.

[jimbob86]

That round doesn't even come close to being the low recoil round that he is looking for. Why do you think that will work?

I shoot either 117 gr SST's or BTSP's over 50 grains of IMR 4831 in a Browning A-Bolt.I watch the animals hit reaction through the scope.So either you know squat about the 25-06 or ........well there is no or,you know squat about the recoil of a 25-06.

As he loads it (midrange charge- ~2800 f/sec - think .257AI ) it's going to have less recoil than a similar boltgun with a factory 6.5CM loading .... but more than a similar .243 ..... none of those, in a sporter weight bolt gun are going to have less recoil than a 8 to 9 pound AR-10 with a rifle length buffer in whatever caliber, be it .308, 7-08, 6.5CM, or .243 ....

You said that the biggest concern is getting your girlfriend a smaller, lighter rifle that recoils less than a .308 semiauto.

The OP said nothing about a semi-auto .... to whom were you referring to, briandg?

[rodwhaincamo]

Not many slight women who would be recoil sensitive will want to deal with a heavy rifle outside of a blind. Maybe I missed this part but I don't recall the hunting situation mentioned.

When I searched for my first muzzleloading rifle I wanted something that would cover most bases. Something I could hunt from a fixed position or stalk with. Heavy was not something I looked for in my rifle. But then weight wouldn't be an issue if it were only a blind hunting rifle. I'm not a big guy whatsoever but I require a manageable rifle assuming I may have to carry some meat for miles. A heavy rifle isn't what I'd want. Granted I doubt he'll have her do the work I'd possibly have to weight is still a point of contention possibly. Of course I'll have to reread the whole thing now...

[jimbob86]

Not many slight women who would be recoil sensitive will want to deal with a heavy rifle outside of a blind. Maybe I missed this part but I don't recall the hunting situation mentioned.

TANSTAAFL. I don't think the OP said how they hunted .... We hunt out of blinds, overlooking good sized fields bordered by tree lined creeks, for the most part .... sometimes the more spry will do a push for the old and the very young ..... but that's the way I solved my issue - and I gave my reasoning. I chimed in because I have some experience with recoil sensitive hunters (little kids aged 10-14), and I doubted anybody could be smaller framed than my 13 year old daughter, or more recoil sensitive ...... not because I am a fanboy of a particular caliber ..... there are other answers that have worked for me in the past, including making reduced recoil .270WIN and 7-08 loads .... Eldest daughter uses and 8 pound Marlin 30-A .... and has since she was 11 .... works for her, but is a PITA to reload for and limits her range .... she could use a bigger gun (she's set to Commission as Marine Officer in spring) but likes her gun. I'm short on time right now , but will give particulars on the other kids' gun solutions I've done, later.

[briandg]

Jimbob, I made a mistake when I read that first post, he wrote 700, I was on my kindle and apparently read that as 7400, a semiauto commonly chambered in .308.

If the 117 grain round in a .25-06 is taken down to .257 roberts ranges, or 2,800, yep, it will be closer to the recoil range of a .243 factory ammo. Factory? not even close.

You shouldn't compare the ballistics of specially formulated handloads to factory loads unless handload suggestions were requested, should you?

[jimbob86]

We all make mistakes, bri .....it 's the rare guy that owns it.

Thanks.

And Whistle's downloading of his 25-06 touches on my solution for some of my other kids' ballistic equipment solutions- I had less money for the second kid interested.... Did some shuffling and had the Eldest hand off her 30/30, and I downloaded my 10 lb. 270 win to 2700 f/sec with a130 gr bullet ..... She killed deer with it .... While the new hunter found that she just did not have the killer instinct .... Several opportunities, but just couldn't pull the trigger..... Just not in her..... She still goes shooting, still likes to go along hunting, but just lacks the killer instinct ..... and that's OK ......

.... Three years later, I had a bit more money on hand, and my son (then 11) wanted to hunt ..... I had picked up a Ruger Frontier in 7-08 (for those not familiar with it, it was Ruger's first stab at a Scout type carbine - 16 inch barreled M77 with a compact sized synthetic stock -still pretty heavy, but short enough that small kids could manage it) ....... I worked up a reduced load with IMR 4064 that lost about 150 f/sec compared to factory loads, but with so much less muzzle blast and recoil that even I preferred it ..... It killed deer, still does. More importantly, The Boy loves it. He's near 6 feet tall now, and still claims that gun is "his" .... Somehow I don't recall him forking over the Benjamin's for it...... Maybe I'll gift it to him if he keeps hunting ..... Anyhow ..... I think that if I put a suppressor on it, it could not be beat in the "Little Kids' Deer Rifle" category: Light, Short(ish) heavy enough to mitigate even the mild recoil of a 139gr bullet launched at 2500 f/sec, further mitigated by the can ...... And the report of a 22 mag..... Given efficient bullets, it's a no recoil 300 yard gun, if the shooter is up to it.........

Which brings us to the Last Child ..... She killed her first deer (as I detailed earlier) in 2015 with my AR .... I was not broke, and was prepared to buy another Frontier, or even a GSR ..... But she liked shooting the AR ..... As some of the posters have alluded to..... "Let her choose..." There is some truth to that: people tend to believe in their choices..... Become invested in them, if you will..... Witness the Legions of Fanboys that wage cyber war in favor of their choice and against all others (I've been guilty of this...sorry, live and learn ..... Which is exactly why I am spending the time to share all of this ..... The School of Hard Knocks is THE most expensive way to figure stuff out, ESPECIALLY in this, The Age of Information and Marketing ..... I ain't sellin' nothin', Just advocating for getting more kids (and women, because they are the biggest influences on little kids) into the field .... But I digress ..... back to the Last Child) She liked the AR ....but 2016 laid bare the inadequacy of the 5.56, even when loaded with really good bullets loaded to their max potential and good placement .... Small deer, perfect angles at under 100 yards? One or more of these things iffy or just not.. .... Maybe.....maybe Not .... But all else being equal, more is better ..... I built the PA-10 and it looked similar, if bigger (but she was bigger than she was 2 years prior, too ) ....so it was familiar .... I've always taught good form and fundamentals (ball and dummy drill with a major caliber center fire rifle is the Gold Standard test for good form and fundamentals w/ regard to recoil management) ..... I zeroed it .... She shot some paper to confirm .... And then lots of water bottles and milk jugs at different distances (instant feedback is a plus with kids) .... A couple hundred rounds ..... It worked pretty well...

Are these the "Right Answers"? I don't know..... but they were my answers at the time .... Some worked, some didn't .... But I'm sharing so maybe you can learn something ..... Not because I think that the 270WIN is "the BEST cartridge EVAR ".... Or to say that you should learn to hand load ( you should!) .... But I think that is what gun forums were supposed to be for: gun folks sharing gun information .... As always, Your mileage may Vary- it's your bus and your road and your foot on the pedal ...... Enjoy your ride.....

[Whistlebritches]

Originally Posted by jimbob86

We all make mistakes, bri .....it 's the rare guy that owns it.

Thanks.

And Whistle's downloading of his 25-06 touches on my solution for some of my other kids' ballistic equipment solutions- I had less money for the second kid interested.... Did some shuffling and had the Eldest hand off her 30/30, and I downloaded my 10 lb. 270 win to 2700 f/sec with a130 gr bullet ..... She killed deer with it .... While the new hunter found that she just did not have the killer instinct .... Several opportunities, but just couldn't pull the trigger..... Just not in her..... She still goes shooting, still likes to go along hunting, but just lacks the killer instinct ..... and that's .

Actually my 25-06 load is not downloaded.........just where I found optimum accuracy.I've chrono'd this load at 3020~3045fps out of that same Browning A~Bolt.I find it intriguing that anyone would find this combo heavy in the recoil department.I'll admit I have little experience with the 243.My pet load in that Browning is a joy to shoot compared to my 6 lb sporter in 308 chocked full of pork pills(180 grainers)or my old Glenfield 30A in 30~30 stuffed with 170's.I've never seen any animals reaction to a solid hit through the scope of either of these rifles I assure you.

[jimbob86]

ctually my 25-06 load is not downloaded.........just where I found optimum accuracy.I've chrono'd this load at 3020~3045fps out of that same Browning A~Bolt.I find it intriguing that anyone would find this combo heavy in the recoil department.I'll admit I have little experience with the 243.My pet load in that Browning is a joy to shoot compared to my 6 lb sporter in 308 chocked full of pork pills(180 grainers)or my old Glenfield 30A in that 30~30 stuffed with 170's.I've never seen any animals reaction to a solid hit through the scope of either of these rifles I assure you.

It's a magic gun! Consider yourself very blessed that you get faster than book velocity and it still prints well ...... and never sell it...... it's unlikely you'll find that again in any gun.

or my old Glenfield 30A in that 30~30 stuffed with 170's.I've never seen any animals reaction to a solid hit through the scope of either of these rifles I assure you.

Try 150's in the 30A .... and use a low power scout scope, both eyes open...... the gun is heavy, the load is light, and the scope all but disappears when you mount the gun to target ..... the crosshairs appear on target and you'll never miss a thing....

[Whistlebritches]

Originally Posted by jimbob86

It's a magic gun! Consider yourself very blessed that you get faster than book velocity and it still prints well ...... and never sell it...... it's unlikely you'll find that again in any gun.

Try 150's in the 30A .... and use a low power scout scope, both eyes open...... the gun is heavy, the load is light, and the scope all but disappears when you mount the gun to target ..... the crosshairs appear on target and you'll never miss a thing....

My Browning A~Bolt is 25-26 years old and the most accurate sporter I have ever owned.This why I have held onto it all these years.My book shows 53.0 grains in the 3150 fps range......so why would 50 grains at just over 3000 fps be out of the ordinary?Regardless it's been working for me a long time......I'll stick with it.

As for the 150's in the 30-30......it does like Remington core-lokt 150's.Other than that I have always pumped 170's through her with excellent results.........pigs die in their tracks usually

[briandg]

I've noticed that most centerfire rounds bigger than a hornet can and will swat almost any critter down if it is hit right. If that means a brain shot at fifty yards or a butt shot at a thousand with a bmg the key is choosing the combination of rifle and round that fit the shooter, the shot, the game. Anyone can play the game of "Elwood Atwood shot a moose with it" and carry that hornet to make brain shots on pronghorns. It's the responsibility of every shooter to know the limitations and capabilities of their hunting piece or defensive piece and not play silly games with themselves.

It makes for a good story when a giant African warthog is lobotomized with a load of number nine shot, over the shoulder with a mirror, but so is Cinderella.

Let a kid or anyone else carry what feels right and is appropriate for the hunt.

I'm glad that I started out with a .243, I was a bony little guy, and even that gave me broken veins in my shoulder after forty or so rounds. I'm glad that I didn't start out with the 30-06 that I shoot know.

Whatever it takes, I believe that reducing the beating that a person takes when shooting can be the most important issue for effective training.

Isn't it odd that most of this discussion has been about getting different cartridges, rather than adding a recoil pad and a set of sound cancelling ear plugs? After a few days of thinking about this thread I feel kind of stupid for not suggesting it in the beginning. It's a whole lot cheaper than a new rifle.

[jimbob86]

I've noticed that most centerfire rounds bigger than a hornet can and will swat almost any critter down if it is hit right.

We found different results, the hard way ...

Let a kid or anyone else carry what feels right and is appropriate for the hunt.

With regard to a 10 year old, or even any true "noob" hunter this is only half true..... on the one hand, they know nothing at the outset ..... the mentor might know some parameters-he might be an idiot, or an expert, .... the mentor's job is to make it happen, and if you are REALLY good, become unnecessary .... Old Armish: "Mission ....Leader, Lead, and Situation" .... you have to take into account what they are familiar with, what they have confidence in ...... but lead them away from things, actions, behaviors that you know, due to your own or shared experiences, DO NOT WORK to make it happen ........ and toward things you think will contribute to making it happen ....

[jimbob86]

Isn't it odd that most of this discussion has been about getting different cartridges, rather than adding a recoil pad and a set of sound cancelling ear plugs? After a few days of thinking about this thread I feel kind of stupid for not suggesting it in the beginning. It's a whole lot cheaper than a new rifle.

It's been more complicated than the typical "My favorite cartridge vs. your favorite cartridge" ..... you want to irk people? Get their dander up? Make them THINK .....

I still think the best answer to a the "recoil sensitive shooter" is good training .... followed by a heavy gun, maybe a SEMI-AUTO...... and a CAN ...... that's next up ....

[Dranrab]

This recoil table may prove useful to some of you that are making stuff up.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

[cornkolb]

If your not shooting long distance check into a 7.62x39.ruger makes a "compact" one and its what i got my wife. My wife did not like anything about the savage 243 she had.recoil was making her flinch also.7.62 recoil is very lowand the rifle is very small so it will fit better no leaning back trying to hold the barrel up.ballistics are similar to a 30-30

[Tallest]

I shoot either 117 gr SST's or BTSP's over 50 grains of IMR 4831 in a Browning A-Bolt.I watch the animals hit reaction through the scope.So either you know squat about the 25-06 or ........well there is no or,you know squat about the recoil of a 25-06.

Not to beat a dead horse, but in my experience the 25-06, with factory loads, is typically one of the punchiest recoil offerings in the smaller bore family. And I have never had a discussion with anyone who felt differently. In this neck of the woods, many people own the 25-06 as a dual purpose whitetail and varmint/predator rifle. In point of fact, I have a friend who started his wife on deer hunting with his Win Mod. 70 in 25-06. She practiced with it, even turned out to be a good shot, but she didn't like the recoil. She was going to use if for that one season, then replace it with something more to her liking. Well, she killed a deer with it... but she has a scar in her eyebrow as a souvenir.

That browning sounds like a great shooter, but it certainly is an exception to the norm.

[gw44]

I would go 6.5 hands down, I would not even have to think about it !!!

[langenc]

Im 3/3 w/ 243 and 80 gr Corelokts at my sons place--2 deer and a coyote. One deer ran about 50 yds--right towards us, other two DRT.

[reynolds357]

Don't ask me, I deer hunt with a 7 RUM.. On light duty days, a 7WSM. Many years ago, I got tired of tracking well hit animals. The RUM puts deer down like a sci fi cosmic death ray.
But to the O.P. question, I would prefer the 243 Win spitting a gilded metal bullet. High velocity vs the med velocity of the Creed.
I recovered 3 deer this year shot with the 6.5 Creed. 2 were lung shot and ran over 100 yds in heavy brush. A large buck was shot on the shoulder blade at about 5 pm. We shot him the next morning laying beside a creek 400 yards from where he was shot. Never found any blood. Tracking dog ran the trail. We killed him with pistol when he jumped up. It was a 120 Berger hunting bullet. I have seen 30 plus deer devesdated by that bullet fired from a 264 Win Mag. Not the Creedmoor, it did very little damage.

[Capt Rick Hiott]

All this talk about the gun,,,,,Dont change the gun,,,,change your girlfriend.

[zipspyder]

All this talk about the gun,,,,,Dont change the gun,,,,change your girlfriend. ]

Or get her both calibers. Can never have enough guns!

[gw44]

The 6.5 just has that edge over the 243, I have a 6.5x284 norma that just drops them in there tracks !!!

[Art Eatman]

Heavier can be better, particularly as the distance increases. No flies on a 6.5.

But I've tagged two dozen bucks with my .243. All dropped in their tracks. Most were neck shots at around a hundred yards, give or take a few. A few cross-body heart/lung shots.

I use a little Sako Forester 19" carbine, seven pounds all dressed up to hunt. I've never really noticed the recoil, even on the bench.

Note that the 85-grain HPBT Sierra bullet is a blow-up bullet, so angling shots IMO are pretty-much a no-no.

I used that load for around twenty years and then Federal came out with it. I tried a box and the boys had done a good job: Same sub-MOA groups as my handloads.

[ammo.crafter]

I'm throwing in a monkey wench with the caliber I use ... 6mm Remington.

[Art Eatman]

I don't see any particular difference between the 6mm Remington and the .243. The 6mm worked well for Charles Whitman...

[lefteye]

The only significant difference between the 6mm Rem. and the .243 Win. is spelling.