22-250 for big Montana Mulies

[samsmix]

Edit: Upon skinning the critter in this story, I discovered the bullet performed far better than my initial field inspection suggested. I thought it was a shallow wound with too little damage, but it was a through and through wound with more damage than I initially realized.

Original Post:
I have used the .223 before, and seen the .22-250 used, and was not impressed. Yesterday I saw a mulie doe taken with a 22-250 64gr soft point that Winchester alleges is a medium game bullet. The deer was plainly well hit, my hunting partner was only about 50 yards from it... but the result was less than impressive.

Is there a magic-ish bullet, or is this just the way of the fast .22?

[FrankenMauser]

Nosler Partitions or solid copper.
And lower velocity would help.

That 64 gr Winchester bullet is super soft and fragile. Their idea of "medium game" tops out on Whitetail. But I wouldn't even use it there. It is a highly inconsistent bullet with crappy quality control and weak construction.

[GeauxTide]

What FrankenMauser said x2. Minimum should be a .25-06 with 120s and my preference starts at 280 with 154 Interbonds.

[stagpanther]

ut the reault was less than impressive.

I hear reports of this happening occasionally from hunters using all kinds of cartridges big and small where they simply mis-matched the performance of the cartridge to the target situation.

[georgehwbush]

i agree with stagpanther, and second the "winchester has poor QC" but don't even get me started there.

the problem is not the velocity of the bullet so much as it is the construction thereof. for higher speed you need harder material. i am a fan of smaller calibers traveling at extreme speeds but the bullet needs to be solid enough to stand the forces. it also needs to retain it's velocity until it reaches the target. "speed kills" but only when it is something that can actually penetrate. heavy for caliber, high ballistic co-efficent; with controlled expansion & high weight retention; pushed to high velocity. that's the winning ticket.

[44 AMP]

The deer was plainly well hit,

Hit where??

Small calibers with optimal bullets still require hits in just the right spot for best results. The usual "boiler room" hit is often not as effective as a neck shot, so it matters a lot where the hit was.

[samsmix]

He hit it in the heart and lungs, but it was a large entrance with no exit. Exactly what I'd have expected from a varmint bullet. The 64gr SP is alleged to be a deer bullet, but I too will now call BULL.
+1 to the 25-06 suggestion. I feel the same, never stepping below my .257 Roberts +P.

Is there a factory 22-250 offering with a more effective bullet? I have little interest in the caliber, but for this year it is what my buddy has.

[Tallest]

It's unlikely you'll find many factory 22-250 loads that are designed for anything other than varmint/predator hunting.

Now, if you wanted to load creatively with a permissive rate of twist, there's always the 77 grain Sierra Tipped MatchKing that has proven a dubious master of taking medium to large game!

[44 AMP]

First point, the deer was taken, so the heart/lung shot DID work.

SO, what you're "unimpressed with" is a matter of degree. I have a deep love for the .22-250, have had one since the early 70s, its a fantastic varmint round, but, a deer cartridge, its not, and was never designed to be.

In the state where I grew up, and the state where I live now, on the other side of the country, NO .22 caliber round is legal for deer.

Can't help with what a "good" deer bullet in .22 cal is, since its not legal for me, I've never explored the matter. And, the last factory .22-250 I bought has been sitting in my ammo stash untouched for about 30 years, as I shoot my handloads instead.

your friend simply needs a better cartridge for his deer rifle. There are, literally dozens to choose from, .24 cal and up.

[samsmix]

Tallest,
I was afraid that would be the case. He doesn't handload, and I don't think a 77gr bullet will stabilize in a 1:14 twist.


44AMP,
Hey I'm with you myself. Out of 189 deer and antelope I've killed the lion's share with a 30-06, and prefer not to go below .25 caliber.

What I found unacceptable was a deer taking 30 seconds to tip over from a well placed hit. I like "Boom, Flop, DRT" performance. My friend will likely re-barrel the rifle (it has sentimental value), but is stuck with it now for monetary reasons.
Oh well, it only has to work on two more deer, and possibly an elk that he'll have enough sense to head/neck shoot.

[Paul B.]

I've never been a fan of using a .22 anything on big game regardless of what bullet was used. I don't even like the .243 for use on really big deer but I'm sure others feel otherwise. Their choice. I have reservations on the .25s as well but many have good results. Again, use what works for you. I hear people say to use the Nosler Partitions as they always work. I don't think so, based on one very large Mule Deer buck that took three hits at less than 35 yards. The deer died at the fifth shot but it can't be blamed on my poor shooting. The bullet was from a 30-06, the 180 gr. Partition, velocity unknown at the time. Shots one and two were in the heart lung region. Shots three and four were flat out misses although one shot did clip an antler. Shot number five went to the neck and brought the buck down.
Autopsy was interesting. One bullet, probably the first shot creased the heart but did not break it open. Shot two went through both lungs but never opened up entrance hole, the hole in the lungs and exit all looked as if a fat pencil had punched through. Shot number five broke the deer's neck close to the skull putting an end to that fiasco. I do not believe that bullet ever started to mushroom or open up. It wasn't until years later when I obtain a chronograph that I could test that load using the leyt over ammo from that hunt. I don't remember the charge weight but the bullet was the 180 gr. Partition over a full case of H4831. I normally use Winchester brass and primers so those were what I used for that load. Average velocity for the 6 remaining rounds from that box was 2610 FPS. No shot was longer than 35 yards at best so velocity shouldn't have been lower than 2500 FPS if that. I never have figured out what went wrong. Bullet too tough for the game? Defective batch of bullets? I don't know but I've been leery of using Partitions ever since.
Paul B.

[jmr40]

The most prolific deer killing family I knew from the 1980's swore the 22-250 was the best deer killer they had ever used. The family patriarch was the type of guy who worked 2 or 3 jobs 8 months of the year but did nothing but hunt from September to January.

He would quit his job at the end of August and hunt every day in multiple states the rest of the year. The guy could do anything, any type of construction, truck driver, house painter you name it, and he would get hired by someone every January.

Most 22-250's aren't twisted to use bullets that heavy. Not sure if that would matter or not. But this family used lighter 40-50 gr bullets as fast as they could push them and depended on precision shooting.

[stagpanther]

The most prolific deer killing family I knew from the 1980's swore the 22-250 was the best deer killer they had ever used. The family patriarch was the type of guy who worked 2 or 3 jobs 8 months of the year but did nothing but hunt from September to January.

He would quit his job at the end of August and hunt every day in multiple states the rest of the year. The guy could do anything, any type of construction, truck driver, house painter you name it, and he would get hired by someone every January.

Most 22-250's aren't twisted to use bullets that heavy. Not sure if that would matter or not. But this family used lighter 40-50 gr bullets as fast as they could push them and depended on precision shooting.

I knew a guy who ran an LGS who did more or less the same thing with matchkings loaded on 22 PPCs--he used nothing else and basically exploded deer's vitals instantly killing them--but he was an expert shot and expert reloader (he ran his own line of commercial ammunition).

[44 AMP]

Most 22-250's aren't twisted to use bullets that heavy. Not sure if that would matter or not.

Outside of custom ordered barrels, the .22-250 generally uses a 1-12" or 1-14" twist which does a fine job with the conventional bullets of 55-60gr or less that the cartridge was developed to shoot.

The longer, heavier bullets developed for match shooting and hunting bullets derived from them need a faster twist rate for best stability. The majority of .22-250s are set up as varmint rifles (because they are) though there are some that don't have the common heavy varmint barrel. My first .22-250 was like that, a converted Mauser. Eventually I had to let that one go, needed the money more than the rifle, fine though it was.

Later on, with a good steady job I eventually got another, this one a Winchester Model 70 Varmint. It has the traditional twist. Groups from that rifle run about 1 MOA with 55gr bullets, and around 3/4 MOA with 52/53gr match bullets. Got some Sierra 63gr "semi spitzers" in a trade deal, worked with them a bit (Not on deer, it isn't legal where I live) and those bullets shot about 2MOA, at best. That rifle just didn't like them enough to do better, though a 2MOA rifle is adequately accurate for deer with larger calibers, I feel that .22s require more precision than that to be humane and reliable at longer ranges.

A .22-250 with a barrel set up for the sporting versions of the long heavy match bullets would be a pretty good set up for the right hunter, having both the precision needed and a better than varmint bullet for deer, where legal.

Though I also think that if you're going to do that, why not just go with a .24 or larger caliber which are legal nearly everywhere.

[NHSHOOTER]

i once hunted deer with a 22-250, my only option at the time, $$$$ issues, my uncle let me borrow his which he handloaded for and was a tack driver. 55 gr hollowpoints. Here in NH we dont have a over abundance of deer so I was lucky to have a real nice 8 point come to check his scrapes at about 50 yds from me broadside. 1 shot in the proverbial boiler room and off he ran, I heard him bound maybe twice and silence, went to where I though he was when hit and nothing. Soft ground and a big deer made tracking easy and not 20 yds away he folded right up, antlers in the dirt, upon dressing him his lungs were just a jelly mess. He still hangs on my wall, field dressed at 180 lbs..Note: never hunted with a 22 anything for deer since, IMO just too small except for very optimal shots..I got real lucky that day.

[bamaranger]

There's so much wrong with this post I'm not sure where to start.

Cartridge first. .... The "buddy" needs a different rifle in a larger caliber. Clearly the 22-250 will take deer........heck folks kill them with bows. But the .22 centerfires are marginal deer cartridges ( with the right projectile and conditions) and NOT an elk cartridge. I wonder if we are being trolled?

Next head .....shot elk. The warning bell should sound loud and clear when one is required to brain an animal to kill it with the cartridge being discussed. Head shooting a big game animal is a tricky thing, reducing the target (on an elk) from perhaps volleyball size ('ve never field dressed an elk) to softball size. Plus the head and neck are very articulated and often in motion. t does not take much of a miss to blow off the jaw or put a bullet thru the nostrils. Botch a head shot and the result is an animal that likely will not be recovered and die a miserable death.

Reaction to a fatal hit......My score on deer with a firearm is not as high as some here, but it is not insignificant either. And I have taken deer with a wide variety of cartridges and seen other cartridges at work. My observation is that heart/lung shot deer do not drop at the shot but will run some distance after hit. While a bang/flop is desirable, I do not expect it.

Proper path. ... Offer your buddy a proper deer elk /rifle as a loaner. Loan him the cash to go buy an Axis or a Patriot. Trade the varmint rifle on a deer rifle. In this day and age of the price point poly rifle it does not take much to obtain a rifle in a cartridge suited for the task. If he insists in hunting elk with a varmint rifle, pal or not, he might well find himself hunting without me.

[FITASC]

When I lived out West, it was either my 7-08 or 7mm mag for deer and elk. A 22-250 was ~OK~ on pronghorn if shot placement was perfect. Most of us are not as good a shot as we like to think we are, and the little 22s leave zero room for error

[1972RedNeck]

Lot's of people claim the 22-250 is too small for deer and then say that a 375 H&H is too big.

Make up your mind people.

I have no problem shooting a deer with a 22-250 as long as it is a neck or head shot. Wouldn't hesitate to take an elk with a 22-250 if I had a good head shot under 300 yards.

Heart/lung shot with a 22-250? Antelope is about as large as I would go.

[pete2]

Why not use a deer cartridge instead of one designed for prairie dogs. I wonder how many deer get wounded by these pop guns every year?

[bamaranger]

There ya' go. A 300 yd head shot on an elk with a varmint rifle! Not 30, not 100, but .....300! Misjudge the wind, the animal twitches, botch the squeeze and you've got a cripple.

And my mind is pretty made up......you don't need a .375, the .22 centerfires are marginal, headshots are foolish and there are a world of better suited cartridges out there.......easily acquired.....more suited to the task.

Clear enough?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by samsmix

I have used the .223 before, and seen the .22-250 used, and was not impressed. Yesterday I saw a mulie doe taken with a 22-250 64gr soft point that Winchester alleges is a medium game bullet. The deer was plainly well hit, my huntimg partner was only about 50 yards from it... ut the reault was less than impressive.

Is there a magic-ish bullet, or is this just the way of the fast .22?

If you really wanted to use a .22-250 for deer, the "magic-ish" bullet would be a Barnes TTSX, or similar monolithic copper.

I use nothing but Barnes for big game and have for years now. They are nearly magical. (Even when the cartridge is more than sufficient)

Varmint bullets can actually work wonders on deer but head shots are generally foolish. (Generally)

For varmint bullet of the slightly tougher variety, high shoulder shots are devastating.
For traditional "explosive" varmint bullets, neck shots are perfect. It's either insta-kill or miss, as reliably as any other shot. Using a "varmint grenade" type bullet to blow a softball sized whole in a deer's neck is... rapidly fatal.

[samsmix]

Bamaranger,

There is nothing wrong with this post. He has one gun, and that's just the way it is for this season. He bought the heaviest bullet readily available, one advertised as a "deer load". The rifle shoots 1/2" groups with this ammo with ease, and my friend has the self discipline to pass up a poor shot. His marksmanship is well up to the task.


To All:
Upon closer examination (I skinned his deer last night), the bullet did better than I thought. It did indeed shoot through and through, busting a rib on the way in, and punching the blade bone on thr way out. I didn't dress it out, just saw it hit and fall, but he said it pulverized the lungs and top of the heart, so...maybe it was just one of those "it didn't know it was dead yet" scenarios.

Whatever the case, I am now more than confident that no game will be lost.

[samsmix]

TO BE CLEAR, here is what I didn't say:

• What cartridge would YOU choose?
• What do you think he should do instead?
• What do you think....period!
• Wether or not I should loan a gun, bird dog, or wife. You can if you like, I won't.

This IS what he has, and it IS what he's gonna use, regardless of what people think. I wouldn't use it for that either, but he IS going to, and if there was a better factory load, it would be good to know. As it turned out the little 64gr pill did more damage than I realized when I made the OP.

[1972RedNeck]

There ya' go. A 300 yd head shot on an elk with a varmint rifle! Not 30, not 100, but .....300! Misjudge the wind, the animal twitches, botch the squeeze and you've got a cripple.

And my mind is pretty made up......you don't need a .375, the .22 centerfires are marginal, headshots are foolish and there are a world of better suited cartridges out there.......easily acquired.....more suited to the task.

Clear enough?

I've heard it said that you will never find someone more familiar with their rifle than a varminter. I tend to agree.

I can pop prairie dogs all day long at 300 yards with my 22-250. I don't consider myself an excellent shot by any means but I can judge the wind and distance out to 300 yards pretty easy. Only been practicing since I was 7 or 8 years old. Ground squirrels are a little more tricky in the wind but 200 yards is no problem on a steady windy day.

If I am confident about a prairie dog hit at 300 yards I would be equally as confident with an elk head shot.

That said, I will never try it as I like to be over gunned in any situation. 375 WBY is a good elk round to 500 yards in my opinion. More than that, I would would prefer a big 50.

Going to try my 45-90 on elk this winter for shots under 200 yards. Not sure if a 300 grain interlock at 2600 FPS or a 405 Grain hardcast at 2200 will do better, but I will probably have lots of opportunity to try both. I suspect the interlock will do better for energy transfer, but they say the faster you push a hardcast, the less it will penetrate and the more energy it will transfer. We shall see.

[FrankenMauser]

These are the only two loads that I know of, that I think could be reasonable for Muleys.

Norma Oryx 55 gr Bonded
It is a little light, but is at least a good, bonded bullet.

Barnes VORT-TX 50 gr TSX