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Old December 25, 2010, 01:34 PM   #1
bonzo1
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new guy question , dating vintage handguns

Hello all and Merry Christmas! I am new to this site and I have a question about a couple of handguns .

I recieved a pair of vintage firearms at a family gathering last night . These were passed down from my Grandfather and unfortunately he passed a long time ago and I don't have much info about these .I am thinking of making a display case for these and I would like to know what they are so if anyone can help ID these or have any info about them that would be great .I am familiar with motorcycles but I am new with firearms but I "assume" there ways to determine models/years or whatnot .

OK , what I have are two revolvers that look almost identical,they are in pristine condition and show absolutely no wear or even evidence of having been fired so I believe my grandfather must have been proud of them . they don't look like anything special ,they are finished in a black sheen , no engraving and they have bone looking handles .The only markings I see are on the barrel and the area on the frame where the cylinder holding gizmo(please forgive the lack of terminology,I will do some research). On the one the barrel is marked "new service 45 colt" on the side with "colt's pt.f.a. mfg.co hartford,ct.U.S.A."over "pat'd aug 5 1884 july 4 1905 oct 5 1926" on the top of the barrel. On the gizmo the markings read "343xxx" with an "L" above and an "R" below . The only other marks are the horse raring up on its back legson the frame near the thumb area , I believe this is the makers logo . Again , I apologize for the lack of knowledge .....the other is almost identical with the same markings on the top of the barrel and "new service 38 special " on the side and numbers in the gizmo area are "347xxx" with a "t" above and a "v" below .

In the cases I find firearms safety certifications dating Mar 1939 for eachso at this point I believe they are from the late 30's and could be no older than the patent date of Oct. 1926 ,if there is a way to narrow it down to model name and year of mfg that would be great . Also , the cases and a holster are marked 'Brauer Bros mfg co. St. Louis MO."I will look and see if they are still in business as well .

I know these sidearms are nothing special but my Grandfather meant a lot to me and these are a nice heirloom I guess .

Thanks for reading this and any help will be apreciated -Craig
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Old December 25, 2010, 01:39 PM   #2
LSU12ga
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If you post come pictures, it might help the more knowledgeable members answer your question.
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Old December 25, 2010, 02:48 PM   #3
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Craig: Sounds as if you have inherited a pair of Colt New Service revolvers...one in .45 Colt (often called ".45 Long Colt") and the other in .38 Special. Probably made in the 1930s, definitely post-World War One.

As described you have two very fine and desirable revolvers. Prices are all over the map, but primarily driven by the fact that damn few are in like new condition these days. If yours are unfired with original factory finish, they could be worth several thousand dollars each. Even if fired and exhibiting some wear, they might fetch anywhere from $800 - $1400 apiece.

Of note: You described "bone" grips. If antler stag, the grips might be worth $150-$300 by themselves. If they are natural Ivory grips...the grips could easily fetch $500 or more.

Go to GunBroker.com to view similar Colts and get an idea of market values and descriptions:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SearchResults.aspx


Photos posted would definitely help in an evaluation. Here are two articles about the Colt New Service and a link to a schematic which labels all the parts to your handguns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_New_Service

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun...ervice_200905/

http://www.coltparts.com/pt_newservice.html

You might also try going over to coltforum.com for a truly knowledgeable group of Colt fans and collectors...

You have received a really nice gift of your grandfather's fine firearms. Treasure them and take care of them. You also might want to insure them.

BTW: They are both shoot-able and both calibers of ammunition are readily available at most any gun shop in the country. If they are truly unfired, I'd hold off on taking them to the range, as firing them will definitely devalue them as collector investments.

Hope this helps.
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Last edited by Chindo18Z; December 25, 2010 at 10:45 PM.
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Old December 25, 2010, 11:35 PM   #4
bonzo1
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Wow , Thanks for the quick responses. I will have to do some reading about how to post some pics to this site ,should be doable this weekend.I honestly didn't think there was much $ value to these since they aren't ornate or one of the more familiar styles like the peacemakers or buntlines .It didn't even occur to me to insure these...... I will check with my local gun shop and look into an apraisal. Thanks for the heads up,I had my house broken into,lost several vintage cycle engines and parts and discovered I was not insured for them, I was sick about it and that stuff had no sentimental value(now I'm thinking hidden safe rather than a display case) .As far as the grips ,I should have been clearer,they are not actual bone I just couldn't think of the term ,they are the stag or deer antler handles .I don't know if grips could have been"ordered" or if they all came standard with other grips and these are aftermarket. They look to be identically crafted,very professionally, for both pistols.I know that my Grandfather was partial to these stag handles , when he was still here he passed me down several handcrafted knives and a few Bowie knives that he got with his NRA subscription way back when(he was a life member) that all have the stag handles. I remember building him a Christmas present as a youth , it was a CVA kit bowie knife , it had a mahogany handle and it was the first time I noticed when he set it on the shelf with the others.... it was the only one with a wood handle .I felt bad at the time but I know he apreciated it.

BTW, I am very pleased that I posted here today . As I mentioned I really didn't think there was real $ value here and these are to be handed down to either my son or daughter who are both serving proudly right now and are interested in shooting.baby girl is home for the holidays so we were gonna make a family outing at the indoor range before she goes back.I have already picked up much ammo for the modern pistols and I was planning on picking up some for these to make it interesting,I only have one other revolver (I wasn't sure if the .45 ACP for the bersa would work ?doesn't matter now ,but the .38 special would have been usable in the .357) . As I say , I have some background in vintage cycles and I know there is a big difference in a bike that is in the original unpacked crate and one that has been restored but once one is assembled and sold the value is all in the mileage and condition if all is original and what original options were factory installed . By this criteria these may or may not have factory replacement grips or aftermarket?? And they are obviously circulated and at the very least have been cycled through the action ..At this point they have always been well oiled and kept in the cases as far as I know ,I just wiped them down again.

Oh well , I am getting wayy long winded here ,just settling in after a long day with the family and this post caught my eye .Happy New year everybody , I have a new list of websites to look in on in the morning -Craig
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Old December 26, 2010, 12:25 AM   #5
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One other question .... to precipitate the passing of the Colts , the setting was Christmas eve at the folks place , I had all but forgotten about my dear and sainted Grandads firearm collection . I Know he had a nice collection of many different handguns and long guns ,vintage firearms are not really my thing but he had one by a company called "Iver Johnson", I haven't seen it in decades but as I recall it was a breach break single shot from wayyy back at the turn of the century .... I was only interested in it as I had read of motorcycles of the era with that name in the U.S.....(never seen one in the metal) this was supposed to be willed to me and with baby girl home talking about going shooting sparked my memory of this at moms place ..unfortunately she couldn't remember where that one was ...but she came up with this pair of colts and wanted me to have them..... just wondering if any of you knowledgeable folks know if there was a connection between the Iver Johnson firearms and cycles??? I have several BSA cycles and I know they were started as a Firearm manufacturer and I have quite a few Royal Enfield cycles from the '50's and I know they also started as a Firearm MFG...


I hope I am not annoying you all with the cycle analogies but my firearms knowledge is mostly semi auto late model stuff but I have a deep fondness for all things vintage and this pair of pistols has sparked a whole new curiosity in me ...I am one of those OCD guys that goes way overboard but I am gonna do my best to keep this simple .

Thanks again-Craig
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Old December 26, 2010, 09:48 AM   #6
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Sounds like a wonderful Christmas !
Colt pistols always have a strong folling , [ think like old Indian cycles ] & can fetch top dollar from the right collector when in good condition. Unless I needed the money, I would clean & oil them & enclose in a case. According to your area, what out for heat/humidity where you store them.
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Old December 26, 2010, 09:51 AM   #7
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Sounds like a wonderful Christmas !
Colt pistols always have a strong following , [ think like old Indian cycles ] & can fetch top dollar from the right collector when in good condition. Unless I needed the money, I would clean & oil them & enclose in a case. According to your area, what out for heat/humidity where you store them.
Congratulations !
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Old December 26, 2010, 02:18 PM   #8
bonzo1
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11

Last edited by bonzo1; December 26, 2010 at 02:26 PM.
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Old December 26, 2010, 10:11 PM   #9
James K
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The .45, serial 343xxx, was made in 1937; the .38 Special in 1939. If they are in good condition, with lots of original finish, they are worth a fair amount of money. One in like new condition would retail in the neighborhood of $2000 or more.

The .45 is for the cartridge called the .45 Colt, which is not the same as the .45 ACP, which is used in auto pistols. The bone handles are almost certainly not factory original, and that reduces the value considerably.

Jim
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Old December 29, 2010, 12:13 AM   #10
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On the other hand, if they're ivory grips instead of bone, could be valuable. Can we see a photo?
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Old December 30, 2010, 05:54 PM   #11
bonzo1
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I tried to post pics a few days ago with no luck , I'll try again.BTW, I did get an apraisal at the local shop I was referred to. The man I was referred to was well impresssed with them saying these are probably the closest to brand new pair that he has ever seen. he was all over them like they were jewelry,spraying wiping and swabbing them while he was looking them over . he says they definitely should have been fired at the factory and he saw evidence of this in the .45 saying it appears to have been fired and possibly only once but no way to determine, but nothing in the .38 showed any evidence. the grips are stag and he says definitely not Colt factory issue.these are civilian models . There was a pinhead spec of rust starting at the inside of the barrel that he remedied and one nick in the frame that I needed a magnifying glass to see .he rated them at a 95 . he didn't advise insuring them just keeping them safe . he told me I'd be a fool to sell them but he says a collector would pay better than blue book and more if I got in touch wit Colt and had them "lettered",if they were sold as a pair the value may go up substantially. It makes me sorta ill owning something I can't use but hopefully somewhere down the line there will be a collector in the family who will appreciate them.

OK , I'll try that pic again

http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/30...600x600Q85.jpg

Thanks , Craig
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Old December 30, 2010, 07:05 PM   #12
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Your Colt New Service revolvers have been modified by replacing the cylinder latch with Python or Official Police cylinder latches. The grips are aftermarket stag or imitation stag grips, not factory original grips. The revolvers also appear to have been refinished, but it is hard to be sure from a picture. All in all, very nice New Service revolvers.
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Old December 30, 2010, 07:34 PM   #13
bonzo1
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Scorch , thanks for the heads up.My guy did point out the grips not being standard ,and I am certain my grandfather had them done as he definitely had an affinity for stag handle as i have several of his bowie knives that all have them, but the latch is a surprise . My guy was all over these and didn't catch that and I am clueless , I will look into that . As far as a refin , obviously I don't know the entire history of the pieces but I can all but guarantee these have not been refinished . My grandfather was a stickler about keeping things original and well maintained . His collections of various things all showed this , he liked the shiny new looking stuff but he took pride in the patina'd stuff with the history it represented ,especially the late 19th century western stuff, he thought "restoring" original antiques was wrong . I have a lot of experience with vintage cycles and I have seen this exact same mentality displayed by bike collectors...... I didn't inherit this gene and the thought of owning a bike that I wouldn't polish up and ride just doesn't compute but knowing about this is what gave me pause when I took a look at these . Mom's just sorta had them stashed in a closet and I didn't think much of them and was gonna take them to the range and spin a few hundred rounds through them......


You seem to be familiar with these ,if you were local I wouldn't mind having you take a look and offer an opinon.As I say , I have never been interested in vintage firearms, would love to have one of grandpas old henry or winchester lever actions on the wall , always thought they were great looking machines and all that and I do have a pair of cheap repro CVA army and navy kit pistols that I built as a kid with grandpas assistance but never fired them .... I just find a sig or glock to be a more rational alternative. When I look at these New Service revolvers I think of Elliot Ness more than grandpa ,he was more into the old west stuff ,I think he may have bought these new when mom and aunt were born? I',m hoping he bought them as a pair at the same time for value but??

thanks again-Craig
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Old December 30, 2010, 08:02 PM   #14
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Quote:
As I mentioned I really didn't think there was real $ value here and these are to be handed down to either my son or daughter who are both serving proudly right now and are interested in shooting.
Two guns, two kids. The math doesn't get any easier than that.

I have an Iver Johnson revolver and shotgun. Each has Iver Johnson Arms and Cycle Works stamped into it. They made bicycles and motorbikes but I've never seen one.
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Old December 30, 2010, 08:24 PM   #15
James K
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Hi, Scorch and guys,

Scorch, if you are referring to the earlier "square" type cylinder latch on the New Service, Colt changed it to the round type in 1928, long before those guns were made. Those are original.

Jim
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Old December 31, 2010, 12:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
Colt changed it to the round type in 1928
Thanks, Jim.
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