lots of .308 questions -any help appreciated!

[boneman_66]

Hi all,

Just recently found this site - wow - great info! I'm leaning heavily towards my first AR/semi-auto purchase, but before I make the leap (or attempt to in this quickly dwindling market) I thought I would solicit some opinions from you very knowledgable folks.

Here is a list of what I think I'm looking for and why, in some semblance of order. I'm primarily buying for SHTF reasons (with more urgency since The Messiah got into office), but practically I would also use it for hunting (deer, bear, etc.) as well. My other guns are Remington 870 (ducks), Marlin 30-30 (inherited deer gun), Savage .410/.22 O/U, Remington Nylon 77 .22 and Glock 17 9mm. What firearms should I consider?

1) .308 caliber - more "reaching out" power than .233 and more useful for the type of hunting I do. Availability of ammo. I know they are scarcer these days than .223's but I feel pretty strongly about this criteria.

2) Versatility - thinking maybe 16-18" barrell for any in-close needs but still good accuracy 300+ yds. out.

3) Ambidextrous - cursed left-hander here

4) Semi-auto with abili for high cap and low cap (<=5) mags - for defense and hunting needs.

5) Magazine availability - Would seem to favor guns that accept FAL, DPMS-style and last AR-10 mags in that order??

6) Sights - Ideally could allow for easy scope mount but also fold down or detachable iron in case scope breaks or use changes in post-shtf world

7) Cost - Would like to spend less than $1,500 but starting to think I'm going to have to be more flexible than that

8) Wait time - depending on the wait time/back order status of some items, does it make sense to go with the 2nd or 3rd choice vs. taking the risk of orders not being filled before new bans possibly go info effect - i.e. maybe a Rock River Lar -8 fits the bill, but if a DPMS LR-308 is easier to get should I just go with that?

9) Attachment availability - being able to add bells and whistles like lights, bipod etc. is always nice but not essential

10) Reliability/cleaning ease - I've owned guns all my life but I'm no gunsmith heh.

Well that's enough I guess. I thank you guys in advance and value your collective input.

Boneman

[wjkuleck]

Fulton ARmory Titan:

Regards,

Walt

[longrifles, Inc]

If you really want something special that has been built by someone who has been working with accurized AR type rifles since the mid 1970's give this man a call:

Mark Chanlynn
Rocky Mountain Rifle Works
303.823.6270

He's forgotten more about building top notch black guns then most will ever know. He's also the best barrel maker in the world IMO.

Hell of a nice guy too.

[strat81]

Have you considered an AR-15 in a non-standard caliber such as 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, or .450 Bushmaster?

All of those would be fine for deer. Not sure about bear, although the .450 Bushmaster has power similar to a 45-70, so it should be ok for black bear.

[boneman_66]

Walt - nice gun. Would you care to elaborate as to why you recommended it?

Long Rifles - I'm definitely open to a custon made gun, but will it fit my budget?

Strat 81 - I'm not opposed to those calibers per se, but one of the reasons I narrowed it to .308 was the sheer preponderance of ammo - particularly if we looking at a post-SHTF scenario. The effort involved in trying to find some or all of the calibers you mention in a worst case scenario would probably more than outweigh any ballistics advantage - no?

[bigalshootmupper]

I had your same dilemma as I was looking for a semi-auto rifle and I just couldn't see paying that much for a AR-15. For a little more, you can get a 308 semi-auto. Ammo is highly available and used to be 45cent a bullet for Fed brass at Walmart (not now though). I bought my first AR - a DPMS LR-308 with 24" barrel. For the range, this is my favorite gun to shoot. I almost got the 18" version. I would look at the 18" bull barrel version and put flip up sights on it.

[jpwilly]

Or the DPMS LR-308 AP4, also, a very nice weapon if I do say so myself!

[boneman_66]

Thanks guys. As far as buying one of these - none of my local gun shops seems to have anything (surprise, surprise). If I were to buy something online, what would be a standard/acceptable transfer fee to have it shipped to a local FFL? Is the local FFL the one who fills out all the background check paperwork etc.?

[boneman_66]

P.s. Any opinons on the Remington R-25? I know it's in the Bushmaster/DPMS family, but does it have any practical hunting advantages over its 'blackk rifle' cousins other than camo finish?

[Rifleman 173]

Have you heard about Stag Arms and their rifle specifically designed for left handed shooters?

http://www.stagarms.com/index.php?cPath=13_21

The Stag 7L Hunter comes in 6.8 SPC which is bigger than the .223, gives you decent range and is comparable to an AR that shoots a .270 cartridge which is a really good deer stopper. It's not a bad compromise to your situation at all. Mount a decent scope on the rifle and zero it and you'll be the envy of every kid on your block...

I would also contact Alexander Arms about seeing if you could obtain a 6.5 Grendel rifle from them specifically designed to meet your left handed shooting needs. I am sure that they would help you out.

Or, contact a local gunsmith, a good one, and see if he can't get you a rifle you specifically want. He would probably have to switch out the upper chamber area of one rifle to get you a chamber area/upper assembly that works for a left handed shooter. With an AR/M-4 clone a good gunsmith can make the switch in pretty short order.

[outdoorman63]

i love my new 308 ptr91 but will always have a 223 ar around, both have their seperate duties, with 308 ammo getting harder to find i seem to shoot the 223 more often

[longrifles, Inc]

That'd be between you and Mark to decide on.

Not my lane.

[john in jax]

My first choice is and would be a DPMS LR-308 B (18" Bull Bbl), but that is just because I am more comfortable and confident with the AR platform. I have also owned a few DPMS LR-308's and they have all run flawlessly.

My second choice would be a M1A Scout or Springfield SOCOM 16, either one would be a great multi-purpose hunting and/or SD rifle.

If your local gun store doesn't stock what you are looking for ask if they will either:
#1 special order what you want (you may have to pre-pay and wait a while)
or
#2 handle the FFL transfer for you if you order the rifle you want on-line.

http://gunbroker.com/

http://www.gunsamerica.com/Default.htm

http://auctionarms.com/

are just a few of the on-line sources for buying a gun on-line and then havinf it shipped to you or your local FFL as required by law.

[boneman_66]

that gun from Stag Arms looks nice. I'm a fan of .270-like cartridges as my dad owned a .270 for deer hunting and I enjoyed shooting it.

What's the general consensus on 6.8 SPC ammo availability - both now and in an uncertain, post SHTF world?

Similarly, what's the consensus on how difficult it is for a lefties to shoot a right handed AR? Is the existance of a shell deflector a help or hindrance?

[Rmac58]

I'll suggest a Saiga in .308, long barrel, considerably less expensive than any AR. You can get higher cap mags for it too. Add a scope, you've got a huntung rifle.
Transfer fees vary depending on your local FFL dealer.
Can't help with left handedness.

[azredhawk44]

Walt - nice gun. Would you care to elaborate as to why you recommended it?

Walt recommended it because he built it. He owns (co-owns?) Fulton Armory.

Walt will make you a great AR, and Fulton used to make fantastic M14's, which are strangely vacant from your list.

Similarly, what's the consensus on how difficult it is for a lefties to shoot a right handed AR? Is the existance of a shell deflector a help or hindrance?

I've got an AR I built up myself... in .223. Cavalry Arms polymer lower with a Del-Ton upper in A2 configuration with 20" barrel. I'm a southpaw. Love that rifle. Not as much as my M14, but it's a nice shooter nonetheless. Cost a lot less than the M14, that's for sure.

All your new AR uppers have a shell deflector built into them, right next to the forward assist. I've never had brass or powder blowback into my eyes from my AR.

[reallife]

I am sure you left M-14s off your list for a reason, but u may want to re-look at the option. I spent the last year in Farah and Helmand Afghanistan and have extensive experience with both the M-4 series carbine and several different 7.62 (.308) caliber rifles. I eventually left my M-4 in the truck and brought my M-14 DMR into engagements with me. I relied on my M-14 so much that when I returned home I immediately bought a Springfield M1A SOCOM 2.

There is a reason why the M-14 with its diffent stock variations has been used by the military for over 50 years. I will match my reasons up to your requirements and try to answer any questions from my limited knowledge.

1) The heavier and larger .308 has proven distance and one shot stopping power. It may be hard to find in some places but worth finding.
2) The barrel of the SOCOM 2 is exactly 16'. It’s not a 10' barrel M-4 but still easily workable in a close quarters situation. Trust me if it is close you'll make it work. It has some reach too. I shot mine out to 800 and had effects on a 12 inch gong with .308 win 147gr (about 15$ a box).
3) Ambi? Perfect for you! The safety is underneath the stock and part of the trigger guard and assembly. It can easily be activated by the trigger finger of either hand. The charging handle is on the right side. I don't like taking my trigger hand off the wpn for any reason even if there isn't anything in the chamber. Its a bad habit especially for close quarters. Perfect for you though.
4) You can but a 5 round, 10 round mag, or a (high cap) 20 round mag.
5) Out of luck on the mags but they normally go for around 30-35$
6) The iron sights are superb. They are easy to use and come with a factory BZO. The Picatinny rail system allows you to mount any optic in almost any position.
7) The best price I found online was 1627.00$ but that can change.
8) I bought mine in California and only had to wait the 10day cool down period. Believe it or not it is not considered an assault wpn, no pistol grip. It is a very popular wpn and in stock everywhere I checked.
9) It has a picatinny rail system that allows you to attach anything and everything from swing swivels to ATN night scopes.
10) The beautiful thing about this gun compared the AR-15 style wpns is that the gas piston is in front and can easily be accessed and cleaned. Wipe down the bolt, clean the gas piston, and run some copper and powder solvent through the barrel and your done, 5 min tops. The only malfunctions I have experienced was a feeding/mag problem. The M-14 is the most reliable wpn I have ever used.

I hope you take a look at the M-1A SOCOM 2, I really do. It’s a great wpn for distance and close quarters. It’s a real show stopper if you know what I mean. I tried to keep it short and direct but I can talk about guns all day. Let me know if you have any questions.

[boneman_66]

Thanks for the very thoughtful responses.

I didn't exclude the m14 on purpose - I'm just learning as I go

There's a lot I really like about the M14 type platform - proven reliability, crossover hunting/tactical appeal and particulalry the absolute affection of many m14 owners.

I actually looked at a Socom 2 at a local gun shop yesterday. A couple of things that gave me pause:

1) It had a full lower rail which limited comfortable offhand placement to about 4 inches just after the trigger assembly (hope I'm explaining that right). Do most people hold it there or on the rather uncomfortble rail section? I suppose that lower rail probably comes off?

2) Scope options. I understood the gun shop owner to say that most optics were mounted forward of the bolt/chamber area. In general I have a hard time getting a good sight line if there is more than a few inches of eye relief. I've never used one of these long-relief scopes - are they suitable for hunting and if so how hard of a transition will it likely be?

3) Price. Not a deal killer, but this particular model's price was $1,900 I believe. I know everything is getting up there, so I'm trying to be realistic about what I might need to pay.

4) Weight. I don't know if it's heavier than other wpns in the category, but it definitely was *all there*. I'm sure that will help when it comes to recoil, but given that my only other rifle is a Marlin 30-30 it felt quite a bit beefier! Speaking of which, there was also a National Match M1A there and damn - that felt like one Big Daddy of a gun. I would hate to lug that around in the woods for any length of time


Thanks again for all the comments - you guys are very helpful.

Boneman

[T.A.Sharps]

Hi all,

Just recently found this site - wow - great info! I'm leaning heavily towards my first AR/semi-auto purchase, but before I make the leap (or attempt to in this quickly dwindling market) I thought I would solicit some opinions from you very knowledgable folks.

Here is a list of what I think I'm looking for and why, in some semblance of order. I'm primarily buying for SHTF reasons (with more urgency since The Messiah got into office), but practically I would also use it for hunting (deer, bear, etc.) as well. My other guns are Remington 870 (ducks), Marlin 30-30 (inherited deer gun), Savage .410/.22 O/U, Remington Nylon 77 .22 and Glock 17 9mm. What firearms should I consider?

1) .308 caliber - more "reaching out" power than .233 and more useful for the type of hunting I do. Availability of ammo. I know they are scarcer these days than .223's but I feel pretty strongly about this criteria.Thats right. If hunting is your goal then you should go with the .308. You can kill things with a .223 but a .308 has more weight and will carry more energy into and through a target. The light .223 is very light and will loose energy fast, as well as be deflected more easily by sticks or bone, it is not meant for penetration.

2) Versatility - thinking maybe 16-18" barrell for any in-close needs but still good accuracy 300+ yds. out.At this point get what ever you can get a hold of. a 4" difference in barrel length is only a small increase/decrease in muzzle velocity, like only 50fps or so. The only people who really need to worry about barrel length for velocity are competition shooter wanting 1" groups at 1000 yards.
The barrel length you "need" is the one that you feel the most comfortable with. I was talking to a former Sniper about getting a 16", when I wanted a 20", he said the 16" shot just as accurately as the 20", but it was easier to handle.

3) Ambidextrous - cursed left-hander hereYou can get almost anything in left hand, I think all bolt actions have a left hander version. You can even find left handed uppers for AR-15's, might be a little limited with an AR-10 though.

4) Semi-auto with abili for high cap and low cap (<=5) mags - for defense and hunting needs.High cap is cool, but I found if helps you more to burn ammo faster at the range. No harm in it though.

5) Magazine availability - Would seem to favor guns that accept FAL, DPMS-style and last AR-10 mags in that order??.223 would have the advantage in mag availability. You can practically get them at the gas station. for around $15. I think LR-308 mags are about $40-$50, but I wouldn't judge my gun purchase based on the mag.

6) Sights - Ideally could allow for easy scope mount but also fold down or detachable iron in case scope breaks or use changes in post-shtf world This is equal to both the .308 and .223.

7) Cost - Would like to spend less than $1,500 but starting to think I'm going to have to be more flexible than that On a 308 you will probably spend about that just for the rifle. You can also build, or half ass build getting a lower and upper separately. If you build it will cost about the same or more, you have to buy tools, and use your time. You really only get away cheaper if you use cheaper parts such as the barrel, then you just have a lower quality one.

I bought my lower and upper at different times so I can buy half now and half later.

Also, if there would be one thing you could buy that would increase in value it would be an AR-15/10 in a banned world. Imagine $1000 just for a stripped lower. No one could afford it, but if they did you would be rich.

8) Wait time - depending on the wait time/back order status of some items, does it make sense to go with the 2nd or 3rd choice vs. taking the risk of orders not being filled before new bans possibly go info effect - i.e. maybe a Rock River Lar -8 fits the bill, but if a DPMS LR-308 is easier to get should I just go with that?
This is why I bought a lower when I found one, I can mail order any upper and have it mailed to my house.
In a situation where they might be banned I would take your top three options and jump on the first one you find. Watch this sight...
www.gunbroker.com
...and check all the gun shops in your area, even outside of your area. I would drive 3 or 4 hrs to buy an AR if I could get the exact configuration I wanted and they had it instore, or get get it in shot order.


9) Attachment availability - being able to add bells and whistles like lights, bipod etc. is always nice but not essentialThis could all be done later, and easily. After you get the basic platform you want. Work out the important things you want, barrel type, forstock, trigger group, upper receiver. All the other stuff will be around for a long time and you go buy sights or a stock anytime you have some extra cash.

If they were banned tomorrow you don't have time to worry about if it looks cool enough.

10) Reliability/cleaning ease - I've owned guns all my life but I'm no gunsmith heh.The AR platform was made to easily be able to break it down to clean. Not to mention a billion people have an AR, so the knowledge base to help you with anything is HUGE.

Well that's enough I guess. I thank you guys in advance and value your collective input.

Boneman

Basically, you would want a .308 for hunting, and you should prioritize what configuration you want. Make a list of 3-5 options and go hunting for one, and get the first one you find. People have been buying them like crazy. There is only 1 shop in my area that even tries to carry them. If you have the money to drop all at once buy it, but it will be just as good if you buy a lower and an upper later.

[Lloyd Smale]

other then its right handed theres no better bang for the buck then a dpms ar10

[lmccrock]

P.s. Any opinons on the Remington R-25? I know it's in the Bushmaster/DPMS family, but does it have any practical hunting advantages over its 'blackk rifle' cousins other than camo finish?

The R-25 is lighter than some DPMS models with the same barrel length, by a couple pounds I think. My 20" DPMS is 11+ lbs with iron sights, although there is one around 9 lbs.

Walt recommended it because he built it. He owns (co-owns?) Fulton Armory.

Unless Walt took a stake in Fulton, I believe the owner is Clint McKee. However, Walt has a long association.

other then its right handed theres no better bang for the buck then a dpms ar10

Armalite makes the AR10, DPMS is "LR-308". Armalite is very sensitive about this issue. For instance, they held up the intro of Rock River's 308 rifle because the RRA name was too close to "AR10". Yes, the DPMS are a good value. The only shortfall in mine is that the stock trigger is rough, and it is especially noticeable because my 223 AR's have nice triggers.

Lee

[FlyboyTx]

There are drawbacks to anything you choose, but I cast my lot with the M-14 platform some time back and have no regrets. All my reasons (and then some!) are listed in one of the above posts.

Cost is important, of course. For the most part, I don't by new guns (or cars). I do the research, do the legwork, ask around, keep my ear to the ground. When I see what I want I know it, whip out cash, offer a discount and almost always walk away with it.

If you ultimately decide on the M-14, work with a local gun shop to find a used one. The one I have came in as part of an estate sale. The shop owner knew I was looking and called me right away. That way, you've got the basic weapon you need and can begin to use it.

Then, start reading up on accessories. Most things are DIY, although I do not hesitate to use an armorer when needed. Brownell's, Cheaper Than Dirt, Midway--all have excellent options for adding on as you go (and can afford to do so). Over time, I've added a Choate folding stock and Comp-Tac sight, have invested in hi-cap mags (go for about $50 around here). Next up is a tac light of some kind--but I perfer keeping things simple, so, not too much more.

Good luck and be sure to train with whatever you buy.

FBT

[boneman_66]

Great feedback - thanks much. You guys have given me a lot to think about. I have a few follow up questions but I think I'll post them seperately for expediency's sake.

Thanks again,

Boneman

[Travelin' Man]

P.S. Any opinons on the Remington R-25? I know it's in the Bushmaster/DPMS family, but does it have any practical hunting advantages over its 'blackk rifle' cousins other than camo finish?

I just purchased a R-25 from a private party brand new for $1500 which is just a little below MSRP and I know that the new Cabela's store in Hoffman Estates, IL has (2) in stock at $1389, my reasoning for the private sale was 1) no hassle (no problems, I always pass a background check, just made it easier and no 24 hour wait) and 2) the sales tax in Cook County, IL (the most gun unfriendly county in a gun unfriendly state) is 10.25%, which adding that to the $1389 MSRP would have pushed the price higher than the $1500 I paid.

Back to the R-25, I've mounted a Leupold Vari-X III 3.5 x 10.5 x 50mm matte finish scope in a set of Warne matte high rings which puts the objective bell of the scope about 3/16" above the forearm tube and I put 40 rounds of commercial Fusion hunting ammo through it last weekend between zeroing in the scope and then practicing, all with no problems and perfect function. My problem has been trying to acquire extra magazines for it, even the 4 round stock magazines are impossible to purchase unless you want to pay over $50 for one, and over $85 over at gunbrokers.com for the 19 round magazines. Anyone here have a lead where I could get a DPMS compatible .308 magazine for a reasonable price?

[wjkuleck]

Fulton Armory has the magazines, uppers, lower upgrade parts...the lot.

The R-25 is compatible with the Fulton Armory Titan.

Regards,

Walt