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Old December 9, 2018, 11:24 PM   #1
armednfree
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I'm confused

We have the Mossberg Shockwave and the Remington Tac-14. Not SBS's nor handguns. So would the status change if you put a regular stock on it? If so, why.

If I put a 14" barrel on a shotgun I own with the birds head grip, legal or no? Or a 14" barrel on my full stock shot gun?

Why?
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Old December 10, 2018, 12:34 AM   #2
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modifications

I will prep this with the comment, THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING:

The Shockwaves and Tac's are legal under a present interpretation of the law in that they are manufactured and sold AS HANDGUNS. So too the various Mares Leg lever guns (I think). Does it make sense, no, but that is the current take. ....the fact that the Tac and Shockwave were manufactured and produced in that configuration makes them legal.

Adding a regular stock to either would create a SBS, as you have modified the firearm from its original configuration as supplied as a HANDGUN, to a short shotgun.

Adding a shorter than 18" barrel to any existing SHOTGUN (whether birds head /folding, or fixed stock) creates a SBS in every circumstance, and has since the passage of the NFA in 1934, and its current GCA follow on legislation of more recent history. By doing so, you have modified what was a legal shotgun into a short shotgun.

Again........this is my take AS I UNDERSTAND IT and there are bound to be more views, more informed than mine!!!!!!!
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Old December 10, 2018, 01:13 AM   #3
Bill DeShivs
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Both of those guns are classified as "firearms" under federal law. They are neither shotguns or handguns.
A "firearm" can not have a shoulder stock, and must be at least 26" overall. The "firearm" must have been manufactured without a shoulder stock.

Adding a shoulder stock changes the classification. With stock and 14" barrel, it would become a "short barreled shotgun." You would need to apply for a tax stamp before adding the stock.

Since existing shotguns HAVE OR HAD shoulder stocks, they can not be converted to "firearm" status.
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Old December 10, 2018, 08:23 AM   #4
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I have a Rossi 44 mag Ranch Hand. The box it came in is labeled “This is a handgun.” It was called into NICS as a handgun. My Shockwave was called in as a handgun but can’t be concealed which puts it in a legally trouble area for me.
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Old December 10, 2018, 08:37 AM   #5
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Both Remington and Mossberg have made the barrels slightly different and they won't
fit standard receivers, nor will the Shockwave - TAC take longer barrels.


Maybe the mfgr's have changed the stock fitting so only that special grip will only

fit those guns.
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Old December 10, 2018, 08:43 AM   #6
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Quote:
Both of those guns are classified as "firearms" under federal law. They are neither shotguns or handguns.
A "firearm" can not have a shoulder stock, and must be at least 26" overall. The "firearm" must have been manufactured without a shoulder stock.

Adding a shoulder stock changes the classification. With stock and 14" barrel, it would become a "short barreled shotgun." You would need to apply for a tax stamp before adding the stock.

Since existing shotguns HAVE OR HAD shoulder stocks, they can not be converted to "firearm" status.
So, let me ask this corollary:

If I purchased, long ago, The Mossberg cruiser which came as a PGO only - and it has never had a stock installed; would I be legal putting the 14" barrel on it as long as I also installed the BH's grip to make the 26" minimum length?
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Old December 10, 2018, 08:47 AM   #7
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My Shockwave was called in as a handgun but can’t be concealed which puts it in a legally trouble area for me.
Quote:
The Mossberg Shockwave is legal (in the United States) because it’s a firearm, yet avoids falling into any of the subcategories of firearm the law defines.

It’s not a handgun, because the barrel isn’t rifled and it is too long (overall length more than 26 inches).
It’s not a rifle, because it doesn’t have a rifled barrel and isn’t shoulder-fired.
It’s not an “any other weap
Presumably the reason it is called in as a "handgun" is that there is no "firearm" option for a NICS background check. Also presumably it doesn't matter because there is no record of the NICS check kept by the BATF after approval.
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Old December 10, 2018, 09:11 AM   #8
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The 1934 NFA defines shotguns as shoulder fired.

Shockwaves/Tac-14's are not, as they leave the factory as a Title 1 "Other", not unlike any other "pistol grip only" shotgun (or stripped receiver). They transfer generally like a pistol, but are not.

Put a stock on one, and now it's a shotgun, which needs at least an 18" barrel or else it's an SBS.

So what if you put a Shockwave barrel on a stocked Mossy? Nope, as it started as a shoulder fired shotgun and needs at least an 18" barrel.

So then what's with the 14" barrel? AOW's include unrifled pistols for some reason. Except, AOW's are also defined as concealable, which in itself lacks a definition. So, the ATF has ruled that concealable actually means at least 26" in overall length (in consistence with the rest of the NFA), regardless of barrel length (in inconsistence with the rest of the NFA).

The 14" barrel is just what it takes to get to 26".

A Shockwave-style Cruiser that has never had a stock installed should be fine regardless of barrel length as long as it's at least 26" overall length. That is, if you feel comfortable proving it. And unless it's concealed, of course.
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Old December 10, 2018, 09:42 AM   #9
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Like I said, confusing. That's because it defies logic.
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Old December 10, 2018, 11:37 AM   #10
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The amount of time, money and resources we spend on classifying deadly weapons is assinine. Imagine if we shifted that effort and those resources to actual law enforcement and simplified it down to “if you are caught committing any crime with any deadly weapon or item used as a deadly weapon you are going away from society, do no pass go”.

Threaten a liquor store owner with a .38 yer outta here.
Getaway driver with a short barreled shotgun.....do not pass go.
Mug somebody and have a broken bottle on you buhby.

The sheer waste of money and resources that we could bring to bear against actual criminals is mind boggling.

But hey let’s carry on with the minutiae of making sure Joe accountant can’t have a 15.87 inch rifle or the fact a shotgun is only a shotgun if it’s not a firearm but only on the waning moon of the summer solstice......

Sorry I have NO dog in the Shockwave’s or bump stocks or braces or whatever it just annoys me more and more the older I get at the amount of effort we waste on this crap but we will let REAL felons go everyday.

I digress.

I return you to your “firearm” discussion.
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Old December 10, 2018, 01:42 PM   #11
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It's more than just time, money, and resources that get wasted due to our asinine firearms laws, sometimes, it is innocent lives.

Suggest you research what created the Ruby Ridge fiasco, and the Branch Davidian massacre outside Waco for a couple of the most famous.

Not only the laws, but overzealous enforcement, along with the egos, both personal and institutional of the people and agencies involved lead to a number of people dead who wouldn't have been, otherwise.
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Old December 10, 2018, 01:44 PM   #12
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FITASC- the answer is yes- A Mossberg Cruiser that has never had a stock installed can have any length barrel-as long as the gun is 26" overall and does not have a shoulder stock. It's now 28" long.

I could legally cut my Cruiser barrel to 16" with the stock grip- or even shorter if I installed that stupid looking bird's head grip. But why? 26" is 26"?
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Old December 10, 2018, 07:39 PM   #13
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These laws were passed as Feel Good politics because of the likes of Bonnie & Clyde and the
other famous criminal of the 1930s. They were outlawed because they were easily concealed, no because they were anymore dangerous that a standard shotgun. I don't like
the Shockwave, Mares Leg and tech 9. They are useless except as a toy.
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Old December 10, 2018, 11:13 PM   #14
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BTW- the "Mare's Leg" guns ARE handguns. They have a rifled barrel.
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Old December 12, 2018, 10:57 AM   #15
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These laws were passed as Feel Good politics because of the likes of Bonnie & Clyde and the
other famous criminal of the 1930s.
The NFA was (and is) a "Jim Crow" law that was intended to make ownership of certain firearms too expensive for most lower income (i.e. most poor rural and African American) citizens. Otherwise, these firearms would have been outright banned rather than subjected to a hefty tax.

Remember that, due to inflation, $200 in 1934 was equal to over $3700 today. This line of thought has not changed. Recently, certain legislators have proposed increasing the tax stamp or tying it to inflation to keep all but the highest-income citizens from owning these firearms.

Also, the requirement for CLEO sign-off on certain tax stamps was another way to make sure certain people (i.e. Southern blacks) could subjectively not be allowed to own certain firearms.
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Old December 14, 2018, 09:29 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs View Post
Both of those guns are classified as "firearms" under federal law. They are neither shotguns or handguns.
A "firearm" can not have a shoulder stock, and must be at least 26" overall. The "firearm" must have been manufactured without a shoulder stock.

Adding a shoulder stock changes the classification. With stock and 14" barrel, it would become a "short barreled shotgun." You would need to apply for a tax stamp before adding the stock.

Since existing shotguns HAVE OR HAD shoulder stocks, they can not be converted to "firearm" status.


So could someone produce a side by side like that? Like those old Ithaca bank guard guns?


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Old December 14, 2018, 12:01 PM   #17
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Probably not

The nature of a single or double barrel make it mighty short with a short barrel.

Pumps and semi-autos have length in the receiver, a break open gun? Not so much.
I think there is still a minimum length that applies. The shockwave and similar do not interest me at all.
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Old December 14, 2018, 03:02 PM   #18
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The nature of a single or double barrel make it mighty short with a short barrel.
Indeed, but there is a simple answer to meeting the required 26" overall length, make the barrels longer!

Since the break action is shorter than the pump action, simply extend the barrel length of the break action to meet the 26" overall length. The gun is still the same short length, overall, and just as handy.

Remember, to avoid the tax stamp, the gun must have 18" barrels AND a 26" overall length, as minimums. If an "unstocked" double needs 22" (or whatever length over 18") to meet the 26" overall length then it needs longer barrels. It's complex, but not complicated.

If you really want to get confused, study the Miller case. The high court did not actually say the short barrel shotgun was not a militia weapon,, they said "we have been presented no evidence..." which was because the defense didn't show up to the appeal hearing, so the court ruled in favor of the prosecution. The Govt took this to mean the entire NFA 1934 was constitutionally valid, and therefore set in stone, and no one has brought a challenge to that (or one that SCOTUS would hear) in all the years since.


It's a bad law, supported by a bad court ruling, but its what we've been stuck with for the past 80 years+ and when things go that long without challenge, they tend to stay that way...
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Old December 14, 2018, 07:14 PM   #19
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Just pay the tax and do it right.
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Old December 14, 2018, 08:59 PM   #20
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That grip looks REAL painful
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Old December 15, 2018, 12:15 AM   #21
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Not as painful as getting the web of your hand jammed under the opening lever, or the second barrel going off while the gun is in full recoil.
It's about the same grip angle as the second model Ithaca Auto & Burglar Gun.
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Old December 15, 2018, 09:27 PM   #22
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So could someone produce a side by side like that? Like those old Ithaca bank guard guns?
Yes, IF
1. It was never made with a sholder butt stock.
2. The total length is greater than 26 inches.
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