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Old November 15, 2017, 11:27 AM   #126
K_Mac
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I wouldn't care how many rounds you might have to fire to save your loved ones and your life. The only metric I use is survival. If you have to fire 50 rounds and you've survived, the survival part is all that I'd care about.
I agree that surviving a gunfight is the goal and if 50 rounds are needed, so be it. That has to be balanced with our legal and moral responsibility to do no harm to other innocents in the neighborhood. Each of those 50 rounds has to be accounted for. That is a sobering thought to those of us who carry a gun every day.
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Old November 15, 2017, 11:31 AM   #127
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Honestly, I have an slightly-irrational fear of running out of ammo.

And I carry a Glock, so it's not like I'm afraid of ruining the finish by beating someone to death with it.

But I'm glad to see I'm not the only one.
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Old November 15, 2017, 02:59 PM   #128
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I will repeat a statement I made, in 1984, I had just been elected to the board of IALEFI, The International Association Of Firearms Instructors.
And as a part owner, of Practical Pistols Inc. Out of Toronto.

We had purchased 10 Glock 17s, direct from Austria. Yes, we were the first to import Glocks into North America!

Police were carrying mostly Mod 10 .38 Special, Revolvers, 6 shot revolvers. A fine weapon.
Against a Glock 17, with 18 rounds capacity, not so much. And a 2 second reload, with 17 further rounds, ready to go, impressive.

The President of the Board of IALEFI, at that time, was most likely expecting a job with S&W when he retired from the Police. Was not impressed with the statement I coined, at my first board meeting.

"MORE IS BETTER, ALWAYS."

I believe this is were Spray and Pray was invented, I think!

Many years later, Glock was King of Law Enforcement sales. A fact.

Of course, not made here, did not help! Same as that wonderful British invention, at the end of the second world war WW11. The Bull Pup Rifle, the EM2? But the most important part of that package, the .280 cartridge!
Was swept aside with the much too heavy .308, or 7.62X51 that was the American round.

There is a really fine round, for Personel Defence now emerging, from India no less! The 5.56X30 this round is lighter overall than the 5.56X45 service round most everyone carries now, less recoil, and good out to 300M.

The carbine the Indians have produced to fire this round weighs in at 6 lbs.
and requires no oil! Of course, every Police Officer, who this weapon is aimed at (Excuse the Pun) will put a couple of drops of oil on it!

JVPC- Joint Venture Protective Carbine

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Old November 15, 2017, 09:45 PM   #129
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JVPC- Joint Venture Protective Carbine
No thanks, its a sub-machine gun with an even less powerful round than the 5.56X45. SBR's and AR pistols have for the most part rendered sub guns obsolete. Lamenting the 280 also, sounds like you don't appreciate the bigger is better American way.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=328876

The NRA study kind of flies in the face of high round count.
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Old November 16, 2017, 12:03 AM   #130
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An outfit I know of ran some DAs through a live fire shoot house, after they asked how many shots. They were clueless for the most part.
I watched a hunting video that showed a number of hunters shooting at a group of hogs. After the first shot, the hogs scattered and things got a little wild.

Anyway, one of the shooters, after the action, swore he only shot once. The video showed that he not only shot twice, he actually killed a hog with each shot.

I don't think people are at all likely to count their shots accurately under high stress.
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Old November 16, 2017, 03:55 PM   #131
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Truck Guns

And this was in Texas.....

I participate heavily on another private board that is centred on the profession I am a part of.
A member there started a thread about having two Glock pistols stolen from the center console of his two parked vehicles.

I took the poster to task for leaving guns effectively unsecured in the vehicles. That poster got one of the two pistols back, the other had already been sold on the street by the teenagers who broke in to his vehicles.

Was amazed at the responses, about 4-1 against my position that it is the owners responsibility to properly secure weapons. The center console of a locked vehicle is not secure.

My last post in that thread mentioned there might even be a little blood on the one Glock that was not recovered. If he should ever get it back.

The bad guys don't go to the LGS to buy their guns. The irresponsible owner bears at least some blame should that stolen Glock be used in a crime.

Very few gun folks on that board. Amazed at the responses I got.
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Old November 16, 2017, 03:59 PM   #132
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Nanuk.

That .280 round was a good idea, I thought?

Bigger is not better when you have to carry the Bloody ammo!

Except for the horrendous Indian crappy demo. Yanks do these better.

My thoughts are for a Police Carbine. You just can not beat the magazine that fits in the pistol grip for fumble-free mag changes. Red dot sight, that is also a laser pointer. Perfect for Cops. And the Boron coating, does not require oil?
(mind you I would have to add a couple of drops!)

A couple of these 2500fps 5.56 HP in the chest, from up to 200m away? They go through body armour, plus 1/8"th mild steel? Beats your duty pistol, yes?

I think no full auto though. Modify to get lock back on last round fired.

Collapsable stock. Neat little canvas sling. And way better than 9mm.
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Old November 17, 2017, 01:33 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Ricklin
The bad guys don't go to the LGS to buy their guns. The irresponsible owner bears at least some blame should that stolen Glock be used in a crime.
Putting aside the question of whether a lawful owner of a firearm should be held responsible for the actions of criminals, why do you feel it is irresponsible to store a Glock inside the center console of a locked vehicle? Exactly how many locks are necessary to be responsible?
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Old November 17, 2017, 02:36 PM   #134
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That .280 round was a good idea, I thought?

Bigger is not better when you have to carry the Bloody ammo!
That difference has to be minuscule. I do know about humping ammo, I was an M-60 gunner. Not to mention logistics. the US military at the time had tons of 30 cal ammo on hand.

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My thoughts are for a Police Carbine. You just can not beat the magazine that fits in the pistol grip for fumble-free mag changes. Red dot sight, that is also a laser pointer. Perfect for Cops. And the Boron coating, does not require oil?
(mind you I would have to add a couple of drops!)
Pretty subjective. Having been there done that as well I prefer a carbine. Having used M-16/M-4 family of rifles for decades it is my choice. Modularity, caliber selection, accessories. My go to is a 300 BLK AR Pistol.

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A couple of these 2500fps 5.56 HP in the chest, from up to 200m away? They go through body armour, plus 1/8"th mild steel? Beats your duty pistol, yes?
Yes, but not a 5.56X45 or 300 BLK. Fired from an SBR or pistol.

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I think no full auto though. Modify to get lock back on last round fired.
Agree, having used FA for many years it has a specific role, I don't even think grunts should have them (aside a squad level SAW).

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Collapsable stock. Neat little canvas sling. And way better than 9mm.
Just about any service cartridge is better than a 9mm.
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Old November 17, 2017, 02:51 PM   #135
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Exactly how many locks are necessary to be responsible?

six
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Old November 18, 2017, 11:38 PM   #136
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In my view, it comes down to percentages. Watch those ACP videos. In the overwhelming majority of them, the BGs panic and flee after a couple of shots.

Carrying 6 rounds (ASSUMING you can shoot) is sufficient for, let's say, 92% of your possible deadly force self defense situations. Please note, I'm talking about civilians on the street, not jewelry store owners in Detroit, or police officers or SWAT teams.

Carrying 10 rounds kicks it up to, say, 97.8%. 15 rounds, 98.4%. A 2nd 15 round magazine, 99.5%. A full auto, 99.99% A grenade launcher.... I'm just making up those numbers, but, well, you get my drift....

My 9mm Walther P99AS has a capacity of 15+1. However, in my normal everyday concealed carry, I usually just load it with 10 rounds (9+1) of 124 gr. +P Gold Dot, because for me the reduced weight makes a noticeable difference in comfort.

I'm OK with that. I'm good and fast with this gun, and I know that in my normal, everyday life, 10 rounds will be more than enough to get me out of virtually any situation I might find myself in. Yes, there are exceptions, of course, but they are so improbable I don't feel like I need to walk around prepared for them. And certainly, some people live, work or travel in environments where those percentages are different, and they may be justified in carrying more capability. Even I sometimes carry 15+1 in unique situations.

So, as I said, I think it all comes down to percentages and what you're personally comfortable with.
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Old November 19, 2017, 01:29 AM   #137
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Did a lot of scenario based training the other day.

In one scenario we come up on a vehicle where the driver jumps out and starts shooting an AR rifle back at us while we are sitting in our vehicles and he is running around. While I was a little hamstrung by the large mask/ helmet my accuracy was horrible.

I managed one hit out of a 30 round AR magazine at a range of 50 feet (while seated in a car using the dash for support) on a man sized target. A second shooter came out of the passenger side and after transitioning to the pistol managed three hits out of 17 at the same range (while out of the vehicle moving/ duck and cover). A less than 10% hit rate.

My results were typical for the group.

I was lucky that the bad guy was poorly trained. He had zero hits. Can't always count on that.
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Old November 19, 2017, 08:26 AM   #138
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Carrying 10 rounds kicks it up to, say, 97.8%. 15 rounds, 98.4%. A 2nd 15 round magazine, 99.5%. A full auto, 99.99% A grenade launcher.... I'm just making up those numbers, but, well, you get my drift....
You cannot make up the numbers and retain credibility. You cannot use a mathematical equation to figure a gunfight, there are too many variables and if you just use averages you may as well make up the numbers.

I speak from experience, US Army, Military Police, Ft Worth, TX Police, US Border Patrol, decades worth. Training and a cool head will always win over capacity, always.

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I managed one hit out of a 30 round AR magazine at a range of 50 feet (while seated in a car using the dash for support) on a man sized target. A second shooter came out of the passenger side and after transitioning to the pistol managed three hits out of 17 at the same range (while out of the vehicle moving/ duck and cover). A less than 10% hit rate.
My experience, most FOF is set up to throw you into the worst scenario. The best part is you can identify weaknesses and address them.
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Old November 19, 2017, 09:13 AM   #139
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You cannot make up the numbers and retain credibility. You cannot use a mathematical equation to figure a gunfight, there are too many variables and if you just use averages you may as well make up the numbers.
I'm sorry you were unable to comprehend the meaning of my post. Nobody is "using a mathematical equation to figure a gunfight." My point was simply that carrying a few rounds, e.g. 5 or 6, will be sufficient for the overwhelming majority of self-defense situations a civilian is likely to encounter in everyday life.

Carrying more rounds is sufficient for a slightly larger majority, and so on. I don't realistically expect to be in a situation where my own 10 rounds wouldn't be enough. It's possible, of course. Anything's possible. So, as I said, it's a matter of what level of capability you're comfortable with.

Quote:
I speak from experience, US Army, Military Police, Ft Worth, TX Police, US Border Patrol, decades worth.
This is admirable, and I nod to you in recognition. However, it's not really pertinent to the likely civilian self-defense situation. Say, walking to your car in a parking lot, or standing in a convenience store counter when a robber walks in. I don't really walk out the front door prepared for a brush-county shootout with a gang of Los Zetas.

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Training and a cool head will always win over capacity, always.
This is profoundly true. When it comes down to drawing and firing in a split-second, life and death confrontation, you'll go with your training.
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Old November 19, 2017, 11:00 AM   #140
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My point was simply that carrying a few rounds, e.g. 5 or 6, will be sufficient for the overwhelming majority of self-defense situations a civilian is likely to encounter in everyday life.

Carrying more rounds is sufficient for a slightly larger majority, and so on.
You would draw such conclusions from made-up numbers? Really?
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Old November 19, 2017, 12:30 PM   #141
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I'd say the potential for a round in a magazine or cylinder changing the outcome of a violent encounter decreases from the first few to the last few. That is the bottom round in your seventeen round magazine is less likely to change the outcome of a violent encounter than the first or second round. But if you do need that last round in your seventeen round magazine, you probably really need it.

I generally carry a five shot J frame snubby at work as a greasemonkey, not because it's the best choice in a violent encounter, but because it conceals well and it doesn't interfere with my work. I'd like to carry a larger handgun with more capacity and I'm experimenting with a single stack auto and a six shot revolver. It's not a problem for me to carry a 12 shot g26 with a spare g17 magazine when I'm not working but I'm thinking that having one carry method/firearm outweighs the extra capacity and shootability that the larger handgun brings for now.
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Old November 20, 2017, 09:49 AM   #142
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Why focus on when everything goes right? 3 rounds, 3 seconds, 3 feet away, and in CandyLand?

We carry a gun in the first place for when things go wrong. When they go wrong, they go very wrong. Especially if we get a visit from our good friend Murphy.


We prepare and set out to prepare for worst case scenario. Trying to cover all bases, as many as we can fathom. So why sell yourself short on the notion that you'll only need 3-4 rounds? By that logic, loading a magazine 5 rounds deep should be optimal right? Why load it up in the first place?

You car is on empty but where you have to go, in theory can be reached with a half tank of gasoline, so do you not fill it up anyways?

I've touch enough on that portion. Now for my second portion. Things to consider.
  • Multiple attackers - Not all scatter. Some get red and want one thing. Same goal. You'll be fighting Cerberus.
  • Missed shots - You're moving. They're moving. Both goals are to not get shot.
  • Shots that fail to incapacitate - Poorly placed shots. In the meat, not hitting any vital arteries or organs. Upper CNS and brain stem. etc
  • Barriers - No one stands still waiting to be shot. They can get or wind up behind cover while running from you or to engage you. Contrary to Hollywood, drywall, car doors, and tables aren't cover, they're concealment and bullets zing right though.
  • Ammo failure - Bad primer and/or failure to expand.
  • Magazine failure - Magazine seizes up because of that pocket lint in that gun you refuse to clean because you want to see how long it'll go without it.

Those are just some right off the top of my head that I can think of on the fly. There are many more that they've covered in classes.

You need to remember the reality of things. They have the drop on you. They chose you while you're standing at the ATM, walking to your car, going into your home from your driveway, or while walking in an outdoor mall. We're simply going about our daily lives and they've been the one to always choose their victims. Don't let them label you a victim. Come prepared as you should.

Nothing about this is black and white. Carry enough gun. 9mm in the double digits or a single stack 9mm with a spare magazine or two. Carry medical as well. A tourniquet or something. Chances are, you may also wind up hurt.

And train, train, train.
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Old November 20, 2017, 09:13 PM   #143
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I'm sorry you were unable to comprehend the meaning of my post.
I understood it, I was trying to explain the error of you thinking.
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Old November 23, 2017, 01:11 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
Why focus on when everything goes right? 3 rounds, 3 seconds, 3 feet away, and in CandyLand?

We carry a gun in the first place for when things go wrong. When they go wrong, they go very wrong. Especially if we get a visit from our good friend Murphy.


We prepare and set out to prepare for worst case scenario. Trying to cover all bases, as many as we can fathom. So why sell yourself short on the notion that you'll only need 3-4 rounds? By that logic, loading a magazine 5 rounds deep should be optimal right? Why load it up in the first place?

You car is on empty but where you have to go, in theory can be reached with a half tank of gasoline, so do you not fill it up anyways?

I've touch enough on that portion. Now for my second portion. Things to consider.
  • Multiple attackers - Not all scatter. Some get red and want one thing. Same goal. You'll be fighting Cerberus.
  • Missed shots - You're moving. They're moving. Both goals are to not get shot.
  • Shots that fail to incapacitate - Poorly placed shots. In the meat, not hitting any vital arteries or organs. Upper CNS and brain stem. etc
  • Barriers - No one stands still waiting to be shot. They can get or wind up behind cover while running from you or to engage you. Contrary to Hollywood, drywall, car doors, and tables aren't cover, they're concealment and bullets zing right though.
  • Ammo failure - Bad primer and/or failure to expand.
  • Magazine failure - Magazine seizes up because of that pocket lint in that gun you refuse to clean because you want to see how long it'll go without it.

Those are just some right off the top of my head that I can think of on the fly. There are many more that they've covered in classes.

You need to remember the reality of things. They have the drop on you. They chose you while you're standing at the ATM, walking to your car, going into your home from your driveway, or while walking in an outdoor mall. We're simply going about our daily lives and they've been the one to always choose their victims. Don't let them label you a victim. Come prepared as you should.

Nothing about this is black and white. Carry enough gun. 9mm in the double digits or a single stack 9mm with a spare magazine or two. Carry medical as well. A tourniquet or something. Chances are, you may also wind up hurt.

And train, train, train.
Constatine,

I am 100% in agreement with your post. You cannot ever have too many rounds availble when it`s for real. Unless you are a seasoned lawman you do not know how you will react. As we have seen in the videos, even the best shooter will probably miss his target when under that much stress.
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Old November 24, 2017, 03:07 PM   #145
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Interesting information from Ken Hackathorn in the March 2017 issue of SWAT Magazine.

Dave Morelli's article entitled "Training for the Real World" was a review of the Ken Hackathorn Firearms Instructor Course. It's a worthwhile read.

Under the subtopic of "Number of Shots Fired", Morelli notes that Hackathorn makes the distinction between "shootings" where there is only one person firing and a "gunfight" where there are bullets going in at least two directions.

In "shootings", Hackathorn asserts that one to three rounds is the typical ammunition expenditure--this is the figure we're all familiar with from police shooting statistics. In "gunfights", however, he makes the assertion that "magazines will be emptied".

This is an interesting distinction, and one that is not often made. We know that not all police shootings (the primary source of this type of information) involve situations where both the officer and attacker are actively firing a weapon. The attacker may be unarmed, or armed with something other than a firearm. Or the attacker may have a firearm but can't/doesn't actually fire shots before being neutralized.

It makes sense that a situation where only one person actively uses a firearm that fewer shots would be required to end the encounter, but it is informative to see the two types of engagements explicitly separated and information on shots fired provided for both types.
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Old November 24, 2017, 06:16 PM   #146
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Those are excellent points. Lots of us had said that there was the statistical misinterpretation of the average as always happening and ignoring the extreme tail of the shots fired continuum. The point being that we had the single mugger be gone fight vs. the intense critical incident. It's been said before but we continually get folks who harp on the average and ignore the extremes, so JohnKSa reinforces that excellent point in his post.

Thus we get folks who carry:

1. Five is enough - but acknowledge they do it for convenience but accept the extreme risk as a downside of convenience.

2. The folks who carry a semi with a larger capacity and reloads.

3. The five is enough folks who don't understand the dynamics and mock those who carry more and say silly things like they are not competent to be in an intensive incident so why bother with more or if you can't do the job in five, you are blah, blah.
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Old November 25, 2017, 08:32 AM   #147
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I think having extra ammunition in the gun may also change the way a defender addresses the threat even if a lot of shots don't get fired. If a defender knows they have twelve or fifteen rounds in the gun, they might act to end the threat more quickly than the defender worried that they might be left holding an empty J frame, even if they both fire a similar number of shots in the end.
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Old November 29, 2017, 08:45 AM   #148
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I think having extra ammunition in the gun may also change the way a defender addresses the threat even if a lot of shots don't get fired. If a defender knows they have twelve or fifteen rounds in the gun, they might act to end the threat more quickly than the defender worried that they might be left holding an empty J frame, even if they both fire a similar number of shots in the end.
There you have hit on one of the main reasons for carrying a reload..... To reload when you think the fight is over.
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Old November 30, 2017, 11:01 AM   #149
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Exactly how many locks are necessary to be responsible?

six

My bad, poster claimed later truck was locked, not the console. A locked vehicle is not a secure place to store firearms. It's irresponsible. The police recovered 6 other guns from this group of teenagers. Some of the guns they had stolen had been sold, including one of the two Glocks. These were 16 YO kids and they had no trouble breaking in to a locked vehicle, it's not esp. difficult. Not much different with a locked console. Center consoles are all plastic, even if both the truck and the console is locked, the weapon is not secure.
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Old November 30, 2017, 11:42 AM   #150
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is because this is a serious matter. Not Ford versus Chevy.
When you rely on a mode of transport for your work, and as such to support your family and pay the mortgage, it can get pretty serious. I know far more people who rely on their truck to survive on a daily basis than I do who depend on a gun.

If your out of the fight when you're out of rounds you weren't in the fight to begin with.
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