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Old April 29, 2005, 09:25 AM   #26
novus collectus
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i'm not trying to flame you, or insult you, i want to know why you would feel justified in assaulting someone who yells at you.
In your question to Publius's post, it depends on case law of the state. Although I would think it improper or imoral to do this, you have a right to protect your space with force if necessary. When I was a constuction worker, we were instructed by someone who was instructed by a lawyer (second hand info IOW) that if you got in someones face and yelled at them, then you had a legal right to protect yourself. So, they told us that if we had to yell at someone, step back 3 ft and do it. Some states may (or may not?) say that you may not defend yourself by punching them until they touch you. And when I say touch, it could be a simple tap of the finger on your chest. But, having said that, I would not do what Publius said and I would take the abuse or yell back in kind, instead of punching him. Especially if it was possible I was wrong and may have violated the range rules, I woud have not answered back and played by his rules just to avoid further conflict. But that is just me and RCPractitioner may have had another reason to answer back to this rude dude.
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Old April 29, 2005, 10:48 AM   #27
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Ya just can't go around punching people when they piss you off.

I don't care what you say.

And... what if they carry?
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Old April 29, 2005, 11:13 AM   #28
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Remember back in the olden days when you could reasonably expect people to be competant with guns & safety? I don't, but hear it used to be like that.

I'da given the guy a yes sir sorry sir to convey that you understood and alleviate his potential fear of your safety practices and maybe even feed his ego a bit at the same time. The last thing you want is to be on the wrong side of the RO.

I'm sooo glad I don't have to use supervised ranges.
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Old April 29, 2005, 02:51 PM   #29
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There is a simple reason I have never shot at a range, and that is why.

Where I live, I can do .22's in my pit, but thats it anymore(to many people up here). So, we just drive out about HALF the distance to teh nearest range to a spot where the DNR says we can shoot and we do it.
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Old May 5, 2005, 09:54 PM   #30
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You handled a weapon while people were downrange. Not good - they should be able to look back and see no one handling weapons. Had the rifle been in a case, it might have been a different story.

You crossed a line you weren't supposed to cross. Not good - people downrange should be able to see that everyone is back from the benches where the weapons are.

Discussions about tone of voice don't really alter the above.
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Old May 7, 2005, 08:07 PM   #31
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If that's the rules of the range, then that's the rules of the range. The R.O. yelled at someone for breaking a safety rule. So be it.

But I still have to wonder: Why is it safe for someone to handle a gun behind you and put it in the rack when the range is hot? Seriously, if someone can explain this to me, please do.
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Old May 7, 2005, 09:22 PM   #32
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But I still have to wonder: Why is it safe for someone to handle a gun behind you and put it in the rack when the range is hot? Seriously, if someone can explain this to me, please do.
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Old May 7, 2005, 10:23 PM   #33
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I worked as a Range Official for 12 years and here is the deal.

No handling means, when the line is safe. In your situation I think the RO's should have had you wait until all other folks were back from down range, the range was cleared and then let you move up to the firing point and ground your weapon. Then you wouldn't have been humiliated and the whole mess could have been avoided.
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Old May 8, 2005, 03:29 AM   #34
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Seems to my way of thinking that if you aren't in front of the line, you aren't on the range. I also can't think of any range I've ever been on where it was okay to move weapons around behind the line when the range was hot. In my mind, when a range is hot, all weapons are treated as's only when a range is cold that they can be moved. Maybe he was just antsy because folks were down range servicing targets at the time?
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." -Ernest Hemingway, On The Blue Water: A Gulf Stream Letter
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Old May 8, 2005, 03:56 AM   #35
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On the range includes the firing line and the ready line which is usually 6-8' behind the firing line. This is the way military firing lines are run, but of course we don't have the issue of folks bringing weapons onto the range after we have started firing. They are all placed on the firing points at the same time and removed at the same time after being cleared by the RO's.

Additionally, shooters should only be allowed forward of the firing line after all weapons have been verified clear by the RO's and the line declared safe.

I don't want anyone behind me at the firing line handling a weapon while I'm down range in front of the firing line.
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Old May 8, 2005, 04:36 AM   #36
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Striker1 post should have read "the red line." I for damn sure wouldn't want anyone wandering up to the firing line while I was downrange, but coming up 10 feet behind the ready line and placing a weapon in a rack pointed skyward is a different story to me. Of course, like you pointed out, I'm around guns all the time, surrounded by people trained in their use and safety, used to having a dedicated range safety rodding people on and off (which is hard to find on civilian ranges) and used to ranges where you approach from the side, not the back. That makes me a bit more comfortable over how RCPractitioner entered the range, but I understand where other people wouldn't be.

I guess at the end of the day it all boils down to the rules of the range you're on, and how the rangemaster on duty runs it. If he says I need a chamber plug and a blaze orange hat to put my weapon in the rack, I'm off to the range shack to look for said hat...and if he says no weapons change location until the entire firing line is back from downrange and in the front leaning rest, then I drop and start pushing.
"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter." -Ernest Hemingway, On The Blue Water: A Gulf Stream Letter
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Old May 8, 2005, 07:36 AM   #37
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It seems to me there are two issues here. A clear infraction of the range rules warrants a correction by the range officer, there's no doubt of that. The manner in which the correction is delivered is another matter. There are an infinite number of methods for getting a message across without being demeaning. The infraction was a simple misunderstanding of the rules and hysteria on the part of the range officer was inappropriate.
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Old May 8, 2005, 04:33 PM   #38
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Here's my take(and I am an NRA cerified RSO):

Yes, you screwed up 2 ways:

1. Handling the gun(for any reason) during a cease fire.
2. Going over the line to the bench.

HOWEVER: IMNSHO the range officer in question handled it very badly if it started out like that and got as ugly as you said. I don't really know all the details, so I won't armchair QB it.

It is sad we have to be so strict, but you have to remember:
Someone at the range could possibly have 0 experience so we have to run it safely for the lowest common denominator.
From my cold dead hands.........

NRA certified rifle, pistol and shotgun instructor.
Hunter education instructor
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Old May 8, 2005, 04:52 PM   #39
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This isn't so much a range question as it is a question of how to communicate effectively.

The RO acted like an idiot, unfortunately. If he had a problem with you he should have told you specifically and precisely what the problem was. ROs should not be the least bit vague, they have a duty to the other shooters to be specific and accurate, and above all non emotional. Given the fact that you were/are not aware of what his specific problem with you was, then he did not communicate effectively and left you not knowing what exactly not to do in the future - hence he is an idiot and did not perform his duty. Did you do something wrong? Who knows? If he caouldn't or wouldn't explain it clearly then how could anyone know? On the other hand, you could and should have communicated better by calmly getting him to be specific.

Two rules for arguing with idiots:

1. Never argue with an idiot because he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

2. Never argue with an idiot because bystanders won't be able to tell who is the idiot and who is not.

In the future, remain calm, do not become argumentative, defuse the others persons emtional/agression by your utter calmness and sincerety. Ask specific questions, and keep asking them until you get specific answers that you understand and that make sense to you. When you think you know what it is he is trying to say, repeat it back to him as in "Oh, so you mean that in the future I should leave my rifle in my vehicle until...." and he will either confirm that you do now understand, or clarify in more depth.

Confrontations with idiots occur everywhere, not just on the range. It is unfortunate though that the range let anyone act in a responsible position like that without some form of training.
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Old May 8, 2005, 05:26 PM   #40
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as a newcomer to the DFW area, may I ask

which range? I have only been to two around here so far
Now as far as your experience, I will not judge you. But in the RSO's defense, he does not know if you have been there 100 times or if it's your first time. He does not know if you are an experienced, safe shooter or a moron. It sounds as if his approach to the matter could use work, but I for one am tired of having to worry about everyone's "feelings" every time I open my mouth.
FWIW, I've been barked at by an RSO once or twice before, and it is embarassing in the extreme (esp if you are on a first date at the time
Also FWIW, I was at a range about two weeks ago, when a pair of guys violated the "no crossing the line during a cease fire" and the RSO looked at them then looked away. Given the choice, I'd prefer a DI who consistently enforces the rules to an RSO who may or may not...
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Old May 8, 2005, 09:17 PM   #41
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The range was Backwoods Trap and Skeet off of Hwy 380 in Little Elm. I agree with the arguing with idiots advice. That is why as I stated I recognized that attempting to challenge him would be a waste of time. However, as myself and others have pointed out, the fact is: Whether or not it is a cease fire or a hot range you would still be handling a firearm with other shooters directly in front of you in order to move your rifle from a vehicle to the stand. During a cease fire the other shooters will be 100yds away but during a hot range you would be handling a rifle 3-5 yards behind them. As far as crossing the line, it was completely legitimate to do so because you would not be able to hang a target downrange without crossing the line. The only infraction that I can see question with was that I placed a box of ammunition on the shooting bench that I wanted (this can be done simply by dropping the box on the bench as you walk past it to proceed downrange and hang a target). There was no weapon on the bench and all I did was move my rifle approx. 5-10ft. from the cab of my truck to a stand designed to securely hold rifles with muzzle pointing up well behind the line. This action is no less dangerous or questionable during a hot range than a cease fire for the reasons stated above. And unless I can throw a bullet by hand at 2000+fps I don't see the danger in placing a box of ammunition separate from a rifle on a bench.
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Old May 9, 2005, 12:40 AM   #42
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2 things

Guys 2 things

1. The rules are the rules, logical or not, geared to the lowest common denominator or not, someone has to make them and so it goes, when you have to sit at the top and run heard on a group of people doing something where there is major potental for very bad goof ups you get to decide such things and the rest of us have to play along or take our toys elsewhere, there is no debate, especally not on the range, if some rule seems particuarly dumb to you I would suggest sending a calm and well written letter to the manager, club executive board or whoever makes the rules, that's the proper arena for such debate.

2. That having been said, anyone who treats people in the manner described is a jerk and moreover is exactly what the shooting sports DO NOT need. I have friends ask me on an almost weekly basis if they can tag along to shoot because they are afraid to go to a range on their own for the very reason of either embarassing themselves or running afoul of someone such as you describe. The local public range here has the most friendly and helpfull RO's (all volunteer I might add) I have ever met and I hope that their professonalism goes a long way towards supporting and encouriging many shooters.
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Old May 10, 2005, 08:00 AM   #43
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I couldn't agree more. If the RO had spent more time explaining the situation and less time yelling and brow beating, safety would have been enhanced because there would have been a meeting of the minds as to what was expected in the future.

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Old May 10, 2005, 08:25 AM   #44
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I think the RO was out of line in the way he treated you, but not out of line in making sure you understand the rules. Yes, he was assinine about it, but he did his job. I have been downrange and have looked back to see people monkeying with guns. I have a friend who was downrange when a rifle was fired. Events like that can make you appreciate the RO who is focusing on his job instead of jaw jacking with his buddies.

FWIW, are cars always parked that close to the line? Every range I have ever been to has had a buffer zone of at least 30 yards between the line and parked cars. That in itself can create this problem.
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Old May 10, 2005, 09:16 AM   #45
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just remember he is there for the sake of you and everyone elses safety.
and to satisfy personal power trips, in some cases.
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Old May 10, 2005, 09:32 AM   #46
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Maybe the RO was/is a DI. I've never been in the military, but suspect that DI's yell like they do for a few reasons.

If they yell, others hear also and the don't haver to repeat themselves 30 times a day.

Its easier to make a point to a lot of people at once even if only speaking to one individual by yelling.

People pay closer attention to someone who is yelling, vs someone who is not.

It makes it clear that he's doing his job and is serious.

?? Maybe. People don't seem to get mad at the DI for yelling, they realize he's just doing his job, and is sort of responsible for quite a few people at once.
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Old May 10, 2005, 02:03 PM   #47
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Yet another reminder of why I avoid public ranges and clubs
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Old May 10, 2005, 06:23 PM   #48
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I have only heard of the RO nazis. I go to a range were they are laid back about that kind of stuff. My advice is find a range were you like the level of the RO's concern about this stuff and stick with that one.
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Old May 10, 2005, 07:49 PM   #49
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It was always my understanding that you never touch your weapon during a cease fire. Loading a magazine is ok, as long as your not touching your weapon.
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Old May 18, 2005, 10:33 AM   #50
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Of course it is safe to carry an unloaded gun with the action obviously open and pointed in a safe direction. If he can't discern that, then he should be replaced by an expert.

I wonder if this range nazi is against concealed carry.

If it is too unsafe to carry an unloaded weapon out from the car to the range, then it is WAY too unsafe to carry a concealed weapon loaded in public where people are in front of you, in back of you, walking towards you, behind places you can't see, etc.
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