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Old November 17, 2017, 09:45 PM   #1
Stats Shooter
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Hunting Deer with a 400 gr Speer 45-70 government load

I have decided I'm going to use my Marlin 1895 on at least 1 deer this year. Our standard rifle season begins tomorrow.

Is an 1,870 fps, 400 grain Speer soft point fired from a 45-70 overkill on a 150-200 lb deer? You betcha!

But I bought the gun, developed the load, and want to try it out. Plus, some of the areas I hunt have hogs. If I see one I will try it on one of them too.

I have more appropriate deer rifles, but I'm like a kid with a new toy at Christmas with this thing and my load is very accurate..... especially with these Skinner sights.

So far I have put a trigger happy trigger in it to eliminate the trigger flop. It now brakes at 3 lbs 4oz. I put an aluminum mag follower in it rather than the factory plastic one, a Skinner rear sight, an open front sight hood, a Beartooth safety delete, and a dovetail blank to fill the gap left by the old sight.

With very little adjustment, I'm zeroed at 125 yards and shooting consistent 2" groups at 100 yards with Open sights .

I doubt I will recover a bullet from a deer, but I might on a hog. If I do, I will post a picture.
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Old November 17, 2017, 10:06 PM   #2
Oliver Sudden
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Aim for the ribs! I shot one with the same bullet at 1900fps and ruined both front shoulders. A complet mess of blood shot meat! Range was about 60 yards and the lungs were both like red oatmeal. By the way I used a Shiloh Sharps.
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Old November 18, 2017, 07:56 AM   #3
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I shoot a 300gr hornady flat nose at 2000 fps out of a ruger # 3, the speed lessens the drop of the bullet to make hits easier out to 200 yards. I try to take standing double lung shots. eastbank
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Old November 18, 2017, 11:44 AM   #4
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"So far I have put a trigger happy trigger in it to eliminate the trigger flop. It now brakes at 3 lbs 4oz. I put an aluminum mag follower in it rather than the factory plastic one, a Skinner rear sight, an open front sight hood, a Beartooth safety delete, and a dovetail blank to fill the gap left by the old sight. "

I read this and immediately ordered the mag follower, the trigger, and the safety delete for both my .45/70 and my .357 Marlins.


And yes, that is gross overkill for deer.
But, nothing exceeds like excess.
__________________
You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.
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Old November 18, 2017, 09:07 PM   #5
RC20
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Can you do lighter loads for that gun?

Sounds like a Bear load (big un)
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Old November 18, 2017, 09:12 PM   #6
Stats Shooter
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Quote:
Can you do lighter loads for that gun?

Sounds like a Bear load (big un)
I could, but if I want lighter loads I'll use a different cartridge/rifle like a .357 or 44 mag.

I don't like to download.
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Old November 19, 2017, 07:26 AM   #7
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I shoot a lot lighter loads in all my 45-70s. Reason.....if I don't it kills on both ends. My most accurate loads are in the Trapdoor load range with 405 Rem JSP bullets. Even with those loads I have yet to recover a single bullet after shooting a good number of deer. I'd bet that most of them would pass through a hog also. Max loads and macho just isn't a good combination and accomplishes nothing except a good beating to the shooter. The advice to "use enough gun" is met early on with this caliber. However, it's your toy so have at it. I learned to enjoy shooting my guns a while back. FWIW, I get sub moa with a couple of my guns, most notably my High Wall. It's one of the most accurate guns I own and not particularly fussy to load for. It likes most everything I put in it.
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Old November 19, 2017, 08:56 AM   #8
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Max loads and macho just isn't a good combination and accomplishes nothing except a good beating to the shooter
Since when did fully utilizing a cartridges potential become "macho"?. If you can't handle full power loads, then fine, but why does everyone who can't make some comment like this? Has feminism crept into reloading?

If you didn't mean anything by that comment..then I apologise. But I get annoyed quickly when people who are too old, or frail, or sensitive, or have been convinced they should turn a 45-70 into a 44 magnum make comments like "macho" or something about fully employing the cartridge.
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Old November 19, 2017, 09:09 AM   #9
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Overkill?? Nope. For years much of NYS prohibited the use of rifles for deer hunting, one could only use a shotgun or muzzle loader. Anyone who thinks a 400gr 45 cal at <2000fps is "overkill" should see what a 1oz 12ga slug does to a deer. Apparently NYS did not see the 12ga as "overkill".

On the flip-side of the token, 20ga is the minimum size shotgun that is legal to take deer with. This baffles me, in NY one can take deer with ANY handgun so long as it is centerfire..yes, technically speaking you could hunt with a 380. But a 410 slug is illegal... I still can't figure that one out. On paper it seems to me that a 410 slug is at least equivalent to a warm 45 Colt.

Use what ya like, be proficient with it, and bag your buck!

Don't forget to give that Super Grade some woods time Mississippi!
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Old November 19, 2017, 09:17 AM   #10
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Quote:

Don't forget to give that Super Grade some woods time Mississippi!
Ohh I will.i am going elk hunting this December over Christmas with a draw only late season cow hunt in NE Utah....it is high plateau/ high desert hunting. So no woods, but a perfect application of a model 70 Super Grade 300wm.
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Old November 19, 2017, 09:27 AM   #11
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Quote:
If you didn't mean anything by that comment..then I apologise. But I get annoyed quickly when people who are too old, or frail, or sensitive, or have been convinced they should turn a 45-70 into a 44 magnum make comments like "macho" or something about fully employing the cartridge.
You're very defensive. No need to be. When this cartridge was developed it fired a 400g bullet at around 1150fps. Today it's beyond "fully utilized". It sounds like you haven't killed very many deer. I run into a lot of "knowledgeable" shooters who think more muzzle velocity is better. It simply isn't in a lot of cases. I'm not "too old", "frail", or "sensitive". In fact, for several years I was a sponsored shooter and I've fired literally hundreds, and hundreds of thousands of rounds of handgun, rifle, and shotgun over the last many years. I've killed well over a hundred and fifty whitetails, and I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about. Like I said, it's your toy. Do as you please. Trying to make a magnum out of an old time cartridge doesn't make a lot of sense in about any regard. Just buy a gun that fires something more powerful Some day you'll wake up (maybe) and realize that muzzle energy doesn't kill, bullet placement does. Sorry you're "annoyed". If you want to post and get comments, you'd better get used to opinions other than your own.
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Old November 19, 2017, 09:43 AM   #12
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Quote:
You're very defensive. No need to be. When this cartridge was developed it fired a 400g bullet at around 1150fps. Today it's beyond "fully utilized". It sounds like you haven't killed very many deer. I run into a lot of "knowledgeable" shooters who think more muzzle velocity is better. It simply isn't in a lot of cases. I'm not "too old", "frail", or "sensitive".
My deer count isn't as high as yours... but it's around 4 dozen plus hogs , elk, sheep.

Anyway, it seems your reasoning was legit,and for that, I am sorry. I just get tired of "download mania" that some folks get.

I.e they buy a 44 magnum, then load light 44 so loads and claim that is the only way to go.
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Old November 19, 2017, 10:03 AM   #13
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As I have posted before, the thing I can't wrap my mind around with the .45/70 are the number of people I have talked to over the years that are trying to push the .45/70 to the absolute limits, knocking on the door of .458 Win Mag performance, trying to get the last 25 fps out of a given load while using some boutique bullet that cost $2.00 a piece.....................for whitetail deer.

I don't really consider it being conservative to use normal loads that will easily pass through several deer lined up in a row. As I have posted before, my plinker loads are about the same velocity as a .44 mag handgun only my .45/70 is shooting a 405 grain bullet at that velocity. Those plinker loads are MORE than enough for whitetail deer.

But, again, it doesn't hurt anything to use those mammoth loads on whitetail deer if that pulls your chain for some reason. This is just an observation of people who I consider as taking things too far, for no good reason.
__________________
You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.

Last edited by 444; November 19, 2017 at 10:10 AM.
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Old November 19, 2017, 10:15 AM   #14
Stats Shooter
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Quote:

As I have posted before, the thing I can't wrap my mind around with the .45/70 are the number of people I have talked to over the years that are trying to push the .45/70 to the absolute limits, knocking on the door of .458 Win Mag performance, trying to get the last 25 fps out of a given load while using some boutique bullet that cost $2.00 a piece.....................for whitetail deer.

I don't really consider it being somewhat conservative to use normal loads that will easily pass through several deer lined up in a row. As I have posted before, my plinker loads are about the same velocity as a .44 mag handgun only my .45/70 is shooting a 405 grain bullet at that velocity. Those plinker loads are MORE than enough for whitetail deer.

In the initial post, I acknowledge it is gross over kill. My plinking load I'm working on with this gun is a 405 gr hard cast around 1400 fps. And that would be more than enough on deer/hogs too.

I made this load to see what a modern power 45-70 could do. In fact, my primary deer rifle right now is a little youth model .243 because it is small, light, easy to manuver in the trees, and easy to hold shooting off hand.


I didn't really want to start an argument on how to load the 45-70. (I guess maybe then I shouldn't have mentioned the load). But I'm just excited to use this lever gun for the first time in a critter.
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Old November 19, 2017, 10:39 AM   #15
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Good luck and let us know how that big ole bullet does, that's a cool thumper for sure!
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Old November 19, 2017, 11:38 AM   #16
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One advantage I can see to pushing the horsepower if the platform is capable of holding up to it is gaining a flatter trajectory if you are looking to shoot at greater distance with the given platform with less worry about how much holdover to utilize. I'm not a long range shooter/hunter but I do understand the mechanics of it. But all of that still hinges on whether the shooter is well practiced at reaching out like that.

It doesn't bother me one iota what the next guy chooses to hunt with at either end of the spectrum as long as that person is proficient with it and makes the clean kill that the animal deserves.
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Old November 19, 2017, 11:41 AM   #17
RC20
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I guess I am somewhat the opposite, with a handload I can optimize the load for what I am doing.

I shot a Caribou in the got one time, 75 yards maybe. 7mm. I was able to salvage most of the far side shoulder but it was stew meat, messy.

7mm was a bit much for a Caribou though you never knew what range the shot could be, my brother got one at around 400 yards (paced), very rare as close as I did.

But moose tag was always there and always a degree of issue with a Grizzly encounter possible. For just Caribou the ideal cartridge is the 270. 6.5 would be fine, they are not tough to kill.

Sounds like a great gun, certainly understand wanting to use it, but having a lighter load for deer would seem appropriate.

Hogs, never dealt with them, I would put it in the area of how aggressive they are and how seriously you need to have them shot.

The big shooter would seem to be best on a moose or even a bear.

But then keep in mind I am one of those wimpy feminist supporters (lets just say my wife who grew up on a farm and has reflexes like a Cobra, can drive a tractor far better than I ever could garners a serious amount of respect)
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Old November 19, 2017, 12:24 PM   #18
444
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"In the initial post, I acknowledge it is gross over kill."

I wasn't trying to start an argument either. I apologize for coming off that way. I wasn't even specifically talking about you. This whole .45/70 thing has become a hot topic in the state of Ohio over the last few years because it has become legal to use the .45/70 for deer hunting. And this is a common topic of conversation among the people I hang around with.
Again, I see the fun in exploring what the cartridge can do. I think handloading is fun and working up max loads in a cartridge like the .45/70 is especially fun. But again, some of these guys are getting carried away in my opinion trying to squeeze the last drop of "power" out of the cartridge when their target is whitetail deer. There is nothing wrong with any of it. Basically just a point in the discussion.
__________________
You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.
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Old November 19, 2017, 02:18 PM   #19
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Double post
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Old November 19, 2017, 02:20 PM   #20
RentaCop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mississippi View Post
I have decided I'm going to use my Marlin 1895 on at least 1 deer this year. Our standard rifle season begins tomorrow.

Is an 1,870 fps, 400 grain Speer soft point fired from a 45-70 overkill on a 150-200 lb deer? You betcha!

But I bought the gun, developed the load, and want to try it out. Plus, some of the areas I hunt have hogs. If I see one I will try it on one of them too.

I have more appropriate deer rifles, but I'm like a kid with a new toy at Christmas with this thing and my load is very accurate..... especially with these Skinner sights.

So far I have put a trigger happy trigger in it to eliminate the trigger flop. It now brakes at 3 lbs 4oz. I put an aluminum mag follower in it rather than the factory plastic one, a Skinner rear sight, an open front sight hood, a Beartooth safety delete, and a dovetail blank to fill the gap left by the old sight.

With very little adjustment, I'm zeroed at 125 yards and shooting consistent 2" groups at 100 yards with Open sights .

I doubt I will recover a bullet from a deer, but I might on a hog. If I do, I will post a picture.
Have you read Paul Matthews book on the 45-70? Worth the read.


https://www.amazon.com/Forty-Years-4.../dp/0935632840
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Old November 19, 2017, 02:26 PM   #21
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BTW Let us know if you bag one. That Marlin and a 400 grain pill ought to be a hammer.
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Old November 19, 2017, 02:45 PM   #22
Drm50
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I'm stuck with Ohio rifle deer laws on cals that don't make much sense. The use
of the restricted cals is suppose to be limiting distance of bullet flight for safety
purposes. I have had a 95 Marlin for years. Have it focused with 300JHP Horns
at near Max IMR-3031 and scoped it. More than enough for deer, Twas overkill.
Now have dropped back to #3 Ruger in 375win, loaded with Speer 235gr semi
spitzers, meant for 375H&H. over hot IMR-3031 load. This rig is giving me under
1" at 100yds off the bench. If it doesn't, it's my fault. Still feel overkill, but most
deer are shot under 100yds in this areas thick cover. This rig will give me the
Opportunity for those deer that walk out into the open at 200+ yds that weren't
a possible shot before. I've you have ever been stuck having to use slugs you
know what I mean, it never fails you see one every day you can't touch.
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Old November 19, 2017, 09:07 PM   #23
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Yea

To those folks with rifle hunting restricted states....I have no experience in that arena. I live in Mississippi but I'm originally from Nebraska. I have hunted Colorado elk, Utah elk, sheep in new Mexico, antelope back home in Western Nebraska along with mule deer. Here in Mississippi I hunt hogs and white tail deer.

All of those states have minimum restrictions for certain game, but no high power restrictions.

I have only taken 3 shots at medium/large game that I KNOW I could not have made without a scope and some high velocity. A Hog at 750 yards with a .338 lapua (just because), an antelope at 425 and an elk at 350 yards. The hog was pest control for a friend off a tail gate with bipod and rear bag. The other two were prone with a pack for a rest.

But other than that (and some coyotes) everything else has been 150 Yards or less.

My dad actually hunts mainly with a browning lever action .243 with open sights for non-elk.

We all have hangups or pet peeves, like 444 and juicing up the 45-70 trying to make it into something it ain't....more likely the peeve is the people who talk about moreso than the action.

I have several myself, like people who empty thier magazine shooting at an animal rather than a single well placed shot. Or people who show up at the range before deer season with a McMillan tac .338 lapua, US optics scope, shoot a 5" group and say that they are ready for long range deer hunting.

But I digress.

I will let you know how it goes. Might be a while. Out deer season goes until Feb 1. I really hope I see a big pig, because they are tough enough that it will absorb a lot of the energy
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Old November 19, 2017, 09:25 PM   #24
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Yeah.........it's way overkill. So what?

I have killed deer and even rabbits for fun with 375H&H, 458, Winchester 50-140 sharps, 62 caliber flintlock and 460 G&A. They work.
45-70 with a grizzly load. Ok....should work fine.

If you shoot the gun and that load well, go for it. Why not!

I would not object to that any more than I object to someone killing deer with good hunting bullets from a 223. It's their right to enjoy what they enjoy, and yours too.
The only reason I ever tell someone to consider some other weapon is when the one they are using is defective or they don't have the skills to use it effectively.

If someone has some illogical objection to it---- let them object.

It's like those that object to a gun being black, having a pistol grip or being semi-auto. They are not worth of your time or consideration.
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Old November 20, 2017, 07:38 AM   #25
eastbank
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++++ what he said. eastbank.
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