The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: General Handgun Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 5, 2017, 03:55 PM   #101
SA1911
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2017
Posts: 147
mavracer,

You have it wired. Your post is 100% consistent with my professional training.
SA1911 is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 04:07 PM   #102
SonOfScubaDiver
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 1, 2017
Posts: 391
Well, this was a good thread. Not any more.
SonOfScubaDiver is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 04:10 PM   #103
mavracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 4,209
Quote:
You have it wired. Your post is 100% consistent with my professional training.
Only problem is that quote is wrong.
Temporary cavity most certainly plays a roll. Kinetic energy that's converted into elastic energy causing said temporary cavity is certainly a factor.
And "shock" from bullet impact can and does happen.
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."
mavracer is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 04:18 PM   #104
SA1911
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2017
Posts: 147
Hi shurshot,

BTW, my former agency retrained us based upon US DOJ stats and FBI firearms training protocol. I'm not sure if the FBI ever qualified at 25 yards. Maybe its cops did a long time ago.

There are many benefits of standard capacity (I refuse to call standard capacity magazines hi-cap mags) semis. Bangers rarely caper alone. If there's one, there'll be another close by. Lots of rounds allow cops to easily transition to other bad guys without the tactical disadvantage of reloading.

To this day, if I see a prison tatted up dude walking into a restaurant where I'm dining, I'll leave. If there's more than one, I'll call local cops. If anything, local cops are gonna want to know that they have bad dude felons in their beats.

I used to carry a Model 60. I called it a neck & up gun. With the FBI load, its recoil was unwieldy making it most difficult to keep its muzzle on target. My life is worth far more than a Model 60 can deliver.

When I carry, and I couldn't tell you the last time I have (retirement credentials allow me to carry throughout the USA), it's a P239 .40 S&W. I still have my old on-duty gun: a P229 .40 S&W with standard cap mags that politicians of the totalitarian state of CA have allowed retired cops to retain...subject to change, of course. That was by a huge margin the best duty gun I've carried. If I had to go into LA, I'd take my P229 with a couple loaded mags. But then again, I will avoid going into LA to every possible extent. LA, like most large American cities, has far too many seriously bad dudes who'd kill for fun.

BTW, when I got into my former gig, we were issued revolvers. I doubt that a single cop liked 'em. Within a few years, we went with 9MM semis. Dinosaurs could carry revolvers. Within a couple years, that policy was revised. No cop was allowed to go 10-8 with a revolver as his primary duty handgun. It was all semis. As far as I know, cops of my former agency can carry .40 S&W and .45 ACP. I'm not sure about 9MM.


Take care & stay safe,

SA1911
SA1911 is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 04:20 PM   #105
shurshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,819
"Hydrostatic shock or hydraulic shock is a term which describes the observation that a penetrating projectile can produce remote wounding and incapacitating effects in living targets through a hydraulic effect in their liquid-filled tissues, in addition to local effects in tissue caused by direct impact." Wikpidea. Granted, Wik is not a very objective or always accurate, and HSS is just a theory, but this current definition describes what many of us who hunt have observed when a high power rifle bullet hits a game animal. SA1911; as a side note, you may already know this, but heads up... carrying on the LEOSA 218, as a retired LEO, you still have to abide by magazine capacity regs when you travel through other states. You may be fine out west, but if you go through NY, NJ and some of the other New England states, 10 round mag capacity is the law of the land. When I travel to Florida, I take one of my revolvers and my Sig 220, as they under 10 shots.

Last edited by shurshot; November 5, 2017 at 04:35 PM.
shurshot is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 04:24 PM   #106
SA1911
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2017
Posts: 147
mavracer,

As far as I know hydrostatic shock remains an unproved theory.
SA1911 is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 04:45 PM   #107
RIDE-RED 350r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2014
Posts: 425
Apples and coconuts I'm sure, but if I strike a deer's shoulder on entry or exit with my 270, they get destroyed. Hydrostatic shock?? SST bullet rapid expansion?? I couldn't tell you. But I can tell you that shoulder meat no less than 8" from the actual hole is too pulverized and nasty to eat. Had a front shoulder take an exit wound due to a quartering shot that very nearly fell off when I skinned the deer.

I've also had partially jellyfied lungs when best I could tell the bullet didn't actually strike the lungs.

Like I said, world of difference between a 270 Win and the pistols being discussed.. Just something to consider with the subject of hydrostatic shock being brought up.
RIDE-RED 350r is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 04:47 PM   #108
K_Mac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
SA1911 you're consistent, I will give you that. I think your posts speak for themselves. Your dismissive and superior attitude makes any friendly exchange of ideas impossible and life is too short to deal with anyone who has all the answers. Good luck.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin
K_Mac is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 04:56 PM   #109
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,259
Gents probably would be good to ratchet back the heat on the thread, its clouding any useful information that may be garnered.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 05:10 PM   #110
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
Quote:
"Kinetic energy does not wound, temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed"shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knockdown power" is a myth.
That refers to common handgun projectiles, and it is certainly the consensus of informed scientific opinion on the subject.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 05:16 PM   #111
shurshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,819
SA1911; "To this day, if I see a prison tatted up dude walking into a restaurant where I'm dining, I'll leave. If there's more than one, I'll call local cops. If anything, local cops are gonna want to know that they have bad dude felons in their beats." 
FYI; Some of those "prison tatted guys" are actually pretty nice fellas and you may be surprised to know they might have cooked your meal, or own the resteraunt. Can't always judge someone based on looks, or the fact they made mistakes when they were younger. Hard to find many under 30 that don't have tattoos now. Most coffee shops and restaurants employ convicted felons and many of them are in fact hard working and trying to turn over a new leaf.
shurshot is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 05:17 PM   #112
UncleEd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2013
Location: N. Georgia
Posts: 1,150
After reviewing this thread, I now understand
how Congress and its 535 members work.
UncleEd is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 05:21 PM   #113
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
Quote:
As far as I know hydrostatic shock remains an unproved theory.
"Static" and "shock" cannot describe the same phenomenon. "Shock" is dynamic.

What it refers to in ballistics is the dynamic pressure wave caused by the bullet.

In most cases, but perhaps not all, the wounding effects of the pressure wave are characteristic only of wounding with high-velocity projectiles.

The exceptions would involve a strike in close proximity of something that is easily damaged, or rendered temporarily non-functional, by a spike in fluid pressure.

The phenomenon of destruction by pressure waves has been known for at least 75 years. Somewhere along the line, some gun writers started to apply the term "hydrostatic shock". Jack O'Connor was among the first, as i recall.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 05:26 PM   #114
RIDE-RED 350r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2014
Posts: 425
Hydrodynamic a better term for it?
RIDE-RED 350r is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 05:31 PM   #115
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,677
Well, the last couple pages have been ...interesting..and hugely off topic.

The original topic was not about weapons platforms, tactics, or gunfights and how to win them.

And, while some of us are LEO trained and experienced, many are not, a fact which DOES NOT invalidate their opinion and experiences.

I don't much care who taught you what, where, or when, posts that essentially boil down to "if you don't do it the way I say, you're going to diiiieeee!!!!" add nothing to the discussion, even when they are ON topic.

Focus on replying to the OP, constructively, please.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 06:10 PM   #116
481
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2011
Posts: 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleEd View Post
After reviewing this thread, I now understand
how Congress and its 535 members work.
Now that is funny.
481 is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 06:27 PM   #117
Nanuk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2005
Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam.
Posts: 3,082
Quote:
posts that essentially boil down to "if you don't do it the way I say, you're going to diiiieeee!!!!"
__________________
Retired Law Enforcement
U. S. Army Veteran
Armorer
My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.
Nanuk is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 06:41 PM   #118
shurshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,819
"With an auto, you're only one bad primer away from disaster." Wasn't that an old Bill Jordan quote? I know I can pull the trigger on my revolver a second time MUCH quicker than I can "tap n' rack" a semi to clear it in case of a misfire, which most of us can learn to do fairly quickly with practice. And, over the years, I have observed many jams with top brand semiautomatics. A good .357 or .44 Mag revolver is comforting to me, puts me at peace, much like a warm fire and 12 year old Canadian Whisky on a cold, dark night.

Last edited by shurshot; November 5, 2017 at 07:42 PM.
shurshot is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 07:42 PM   #119
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,259
Quote:
Originally Posted by shurshot View Post
"With an auto, you're only one bad primer away from disaster." Wasn't that an old Bill Jordan qoute? I can pull the trigger on my revolver MUCH quicker than I can "tap n' rack" a semi to clear it, which most of us can learn to do fairly quickly with practice. And, over the years, I have observed many jams with top brand semiautomatics. A good .357 or .44 Mag revolver is comforting to me, puts me at peace, much like a warm fire and 12 year old Canadian Whisky on a cold, dark night.
Are you arguing delivery device or round?. I have seen revolvers jam. I have seen semis jam. If you are arguing delivery device thats a steep hill to climb. No military or police unit I am aware of issues revolvers for use against people.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 07:44 PM   #120
shurshot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,819
Not arguing, just stating my preference. Another reason I prefer a revolver, if you are involved in a fight, a real NASTY, life or death, up close and personal fight, perhaps on the ground... and you shove the barrel of the revolver up against an attacker, full contact, pushing the barrel into their body, then you can shoot the revolver multiple times. In most semi-auto pistols, pushing the barrel against a hard surface will put the weapon out of battery and it won't fire, or if it does, it won't cycle properly for a 2nd shot. I like Paul's Youtube channel, no ego, just objective information based upon facts.

Last edited by shurshot; November 5, 2017 at 08:17 PM.
shurshot is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 07:47 PM   #121
zincwarrior
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,259
Gotcha. Preferences are valid to me. My preference is an m&pc for normal carry or a m&p 5in if wearing a suit.
zincwarrior is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 08:21 PM   #122
chrisabraham
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2015
Posts: 4
I love the guy from YouTube. He tries to be neutral. I've been watching him a lot and covet his shooting jacket. He and Life Sized Potato really make me want a.357 SIG but only in the form of a Steyr M357-- but I hear it's a complete unicorn. So, a .40 S&W M40 and a prayer.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
chrisabraham is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 08:23 PM   #123
chrisabraham
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2015
Posts: 4
I also really want a revolver now.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
chrisabraham is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 09:26 PM   #124
mavracer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: midwest
Posts: 4,209
Quote:
What it refers to in ballistics is the dynamic pressure wave caused by the bullet.
The fluid is static, hydraulic pressure moving thru a stationary fluid would fall under hydrostatics (liquid stationary) not hydrodynamics (liquid moving)

Quote:
That refers to common handgun projectiles, and it is certainly the consensus of informed scientific opinion on the subject.
Is 40 S&W not common?
Refer to post #86
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6
Quote:
originally posted my Mike Irwin
My handguns are are for one purpose only, though...
The starter gun on the "Fat man's mad dash tactical retreat."

Last edited by mavracer; November 5, 2017 at 09:33 PM.
mavracer is offline  
Old November 5, 2017, 10:44 PM   #125
OldMarksman
Staff
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
Quote:
The fluid is static, hydraulic pressure moving thru a stationary fluid would fall under hydrostatics (liquid stationary) not hydrodynamics (liquid moving)
What??

A sonic boom, which is caused by something moving through a gas at a velocity exceeding the speed of sound, is a pressure wave, not static pressure.

Static pressure involves equations such as P = (rho)gh, PV/T=C, or PiVi = PfVf. There is no "shock", but a vessel may burst.

Been that way for centuries.
OldMarksman is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07888 seconds with 8 queries