February 15, 2012, 07:18 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2012
Location: Devon England
Posts: 177
|
Who is Geronimo?
I thought some of you might like to see this picture. I found it interesting because they wear cartridge belts but no holsters to carry pistols. Perhaps this is an insight into their mentality or lifestyle rather than what they can get their hands on. Yes it's the old guy. Reminds me of a bit in a Terry Pratchet Novel "TO BE THAT OLD YOU HAVE TO BE VERY GOOD. None of my friends have ever made the right choice.
|
February 15, 2012, 07:31 AM | #2 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,374
|
Well, those rifles could very well be chambered for pistol cartridges, so a cartridge belt full of say .38-40 or .44-40 would be perfectly appropriate.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
February 15, 2012, 07:44 AM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 2,603
|
The .44-40 and .38-40 actually were rifle cartridges that revolvers were later chambered for.
Someone acutally built a revolver that chambers .45-70 ammo, but that does not make the .45-70 a "pistol round". |
February 15, 2012, 11:15 AM | #4 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,374
|
You say tomato, I say tomato.
Strictly speaking you are, of course, correct. In terms of the discussion, it works a little better the way I said it. Tomato. "Someone acutally built a revolver that chambers .45-70 ammo, but that does not make the .45-70 a "pistol round"." Uhm.... yeah, it does. Rutabaga.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
February 15, 2012, 02:19 PM | #5 |
Junior Member
Join Date: January 5, 2011
Location: Central Oklahoma
Posts: 3
|
Didn't alot of folks just push their pistols into their belts/sashes instead of holsters at one time? I know I've seen it, just not positive on the prevelance of the action.
|
February 15, 2012, 02:21 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 8, 2011
Posts: 162
|
Perhaps I speak out of turn, but I think Mike's point was that these gents weren't (and maybe DIDN'T) carry[ing] sidearms.
BTW Mike, where'd the photo come from? Interesting stuff for sure.. |
February 15, 2012, 02:40 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 22, 2007
Location: Tombstone Az
Posts: 202
|
This part of the world abounds with old pictures of Apaches. I don't think I have ever seen one with an Apache carring a side arm. Rifles and if anything a war Axe.
|
February 15, 2012, 02:46 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 643
|
2 1866s, a Spencers and a muzzleloading musket.
Pistol cartridges would be appropriate for the 1866s(probably 44 rimfires, 56-50 for the Spencer and whatever for the musket) |
February 15, 2012, 05:17 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 19, 2009
Posts: 3,283
|
Ahhh - "white" folks took these photographs - you have to remember that while this gun leather MAY have belonged to him - it was not uncommon for the photographer to use "props" in his photographs - it was commonly done.
I collect WW I photos and I have two real photo postcards of different soldiers , both in sitting half views -both are holding an 1840 model "Old Wristbreaker" cavalry saber. The same phtographer took both photos. I have another which is a "full pose" of a soldier standing and he is holding a cap and ball Remington revolver. These items were basically Civil War "relics" that the photobgrapher had his subject hold - it made them look more "war like". The photographers of the time period that you are looking at often carried "props" with them. These photographs were not made for the Chief or tribe - they were made for a variety of reasons. Some photographers wanted to honestly preserve history - others wanted to produce these photographs for sale to the masses back east who ate up this type of thing - they wanted to see the "savages" that were talked about in the newspapers and pulp fiction of the time. After reading and hearing about the Indians and their wars on the whites, etc. - they expected to see them with weapons and accouterments of war - that's what helped sell these photographs. My response is not intended to affend anyone of Native American heritage. Let's face it - the whites broke every treaty that they ever made with the Native Americans. Some individuals and photographers were serious in their attempts to preserve the history and culture of the Native Americans through photographs, sketches, paintings, etc. They realized that those cultures were fast disappearing due to the genocide policy that was being undertaken at the time. Others saw it as a means to make money, something which the government and many of the general population of the time had no problems in doing at the expense of the various tribes.
__________________
If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63 |
February 15, 2012, 06:00 PM | #10 |
Member
Join Date: March 11, 2011
Location: SW Georgia
Posts: 30
|
who is Geronimo?
I agree on the props being used in Native American photos. I saw a photo of Geronimo with a rifle and a Dance and Brothers .44 cal percussion pistol. As rare as Dance and Brothers pistols were (500 made) I find it hard to believe that Geronimo had one for his sidearm.
|
February 15, 2012, 06:16 PM | #11 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
|
The above picture was taken in 1886. It is the property of the Arizona Historical Society. Geronimo was captured in 1886. So it is undoubtedly a completely staged photograph.
Quote:
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
|
February 15, 2012, 07:16 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,177
|
Even the battlefield dead were staged.
|
February 15, 2012, 09:03 PM | #13 |
Member
Join Date: April 17, 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 28
|
What I would have really found interesting is if they had rifle scabbards on their belts to holster their side arms.
|
February 15, 2012, 10:38 PM | #14 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2006
Location: Kansas City, MO.
Posts: 580
|
Quote:
__________________
NRA Benefactor MSSA Life Member |
|
February 16, 2012, 12:21 AM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2011
Posts: 277
|
Not to argue the staging of photos. Because It was done, But that photo (with others) was taken in 1886 when Geronimo was surrendering to General Cook. I was always told these were were the only photos taken of hostile Indians in the field under arms.
There were lots of photos taken during this surrender so I doubt all were staged. But that is neither here nor there... The mail point of writing is that Geronimo was packing a pistol at the time of surrender.. A SAA |
February 16, 2012, 07:19 AM | #16 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,374
|
Most pictures were staged at this time simply because the "film" (glass or metal plates, mostly) were difficult to handle and prepare, the cameras were very bulky, and exposure times were typically fairly long.
Live action photography was pretty much non existent. There are some, such as the only known picture of an actual old west style gunfight (found in the Time Life series of books on the old west, the Gunslingers volumn, I believe), but the figures are generally blury as hell because of the movement.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
February 16, 2012, 09:17 AM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2011
Posts: 277
|
Well I guess there needs to be a definition of what is a staged photo
One that is set up to take into account the problems of early Photography.. OK Just stand there, don't move, assume a pose type staging... Or Here are some fake guns, lets add some blood, lets spice up the background, etc etc I would tend to call photos under the second condition staged.. In the first because of the limitations of the media those photos at least tried to be as accurate as possible |
February 16, 2012, 10:49 AM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 19, 1999
Location: Near Helena, Montana
Posts: 1,719
|
The picture was purportedly taken in Mexico in 1886, probably at, or very close to, his negotiated surrender to/through 1st Lieutenant Charles Gatewood. Geronimo's rifle, as well as the one in the hands of the man to his right, appear to be percussion guns, as you can clearly see the drum bolsters and nipples. This seems a bit odd at this point, as cartridge repeaters had been around for a quarter of a century by now, and, being in many scuffles during this period, it seems almost a dead certainty Geronimo would have managed to arm himself with a repeater. Both men are wearing belts, but it can't be definitively seen in the picture if they are indeed cartridge belts.
__________________
Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced... SASS 47015 |
February 16, 2012, 01:08 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,715
|
Actually, the picture was copyrighted by C.S. Fly in Tombstone, AZ in 1886.
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwor...mo-in-pictures I can't find any provenance beyond northern Mexico for it. The vegetation in the image does match that for the Chihuahuan desert (which does include southern New Mexico)and for Skeleton Canyon where his surrendered in AZ. In 1876, he surrendered and did have a Winchester 1876. At his surrender in 1877, he was using a Springfield trapdoor. While repeaters may have been around, it doesn't necessarily mean that they would have been what he was carrying at any given time. Keep in mind that repeaters had been a round for quite a while before Custer and his group were killed at Little Bighorn and they didn't have repeaters. I definitely think those are cartridge belts. Do you have another explanation for what they are?
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
February 16, 2012, 04:17 PM | #20 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: on a hill in West Virginia
Posts: 789
|
Quote:
At the time, these were current issue military guns. Also, the two other guys (Geronimo's nephew,on the left and son) are holding 1873 winchester carbines. Not 1866 carbines. Look at the recievers and you can see the sideplates. This pic along with several others were taken by C. S. Fly in northern Mexico in 1886 during negotiations between Geronimo and General George Crook, for Geronimo's surrender. The apache are in fact "enemies in the field" in these photos. They are not "staged" with prop guns,etc. As for revolvers, most indians, not just apaches, didn't carry them. They didn't need them. Their rifles were all they needed for defense as well as hunting. Pistols were unnecessary weight. The apache were notorious for traveling light. Some did carry them (like Geronimo) but not that many. This is a replica of Geronimo's gunbelt, holster and knife from Chislom's trail old west leathers. http://www.westernleatherholster.com...ical-holsters/ This is the real one. Quote:
Last edited by MJN77; February 16, 2012 at 05:20 PM. |
||
February 16, 2012, 05:11 PM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: on a hill in West Virginia
Posts: 789
|
Here are two more of C. S. Fly's pics.
The man on the horse next to Geronimo, is Naiche. He was the son of Cochise. This pic shows General Crook, second from the right, and Geronimo second from the left. Last edited by MJN77; February 16, 2012 at 06:58 PM. |
February 16, 2012, 06:11 PM | #22 |
Member
Join Date: December 21, 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 61
|
Pretty obvious that they knew "a pistol is just for fighting your way to a rifle".....
The pistol would have been a last ditch weapon and the fighting tribes used a knife in that role. Regards, HH |
February 16, 2012, 10:32 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2011
Posts: 277
|
Mucho Thanks MJN77 to taking the time posting the photos
Many thanks for take the time to post the photos..Have always loved the workmanship in Geronimo's gun belt here is a band that is pretty run Ragged to ground and yet still time is taken for ornamentation..
IN Geronimo's case is one of those rare times in history when the actual firearms are documented and saved. I think His trapdoor in on display At West Point and the Side arm is on display in another army Museum.. Fort Ben???? Try to do that with Custers Side arms.. Or Even Billy the Kids side arms.. But Loved the link to that Historical Holsters of Old West site, I have saved that One.. I feel they will be getting some of my money.. And so not kid yourself Custer's troops had the superior weapon to the Winchester, He just needed a better Position.. Heck Look at Reno & Benteen. They Outlasted a lot longer Indian attack then Custer with the same weapons, But they did have a better Position that took advantage of the Greater range of the Springfields Mucho thanks for the photos.... |
February 16, 2012, 11:06 PM | #24 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 27, 2009
Location: on a hill in West Virginia
Posts: 789
|
Quote:
Last edited by MJN77; February 16, 2012 at 11:20 PM. |
|
February 16, 2012, 11:19 PM | #25 | |
Junior member
Join Date: December 17, 2011
Posts: 52
|
Quote:
|
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|