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November 21, 2008, 05:49 AM | #76 |
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just my 2 cents, but in my career as LEO, I've seen 3 perps shot with shotguns,the last one was 2 weeks ago, he droped with a single shot at 8 yards.
All of them were shot with birdshots,usually by farmers using their old side by side, all of them were stoped and died at the scene. Yes, at HOME DEFENSE RANGE, birdshots will stop a guy, and if you are forced to shoot a terminator that don't drop at the first shot, then try headshot, I don't think perps wear bullet proof eyes protection, blind BG is not so dangerous anymore...
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November 21, 2008, 09:52 AM | #77 | |
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November 21, 2008, 01:29 PM | #78 |
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I have shot things other than turkeys with turkey loads. They will take our almost anything at close range.
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November 21, 2008, 04:54 PM | #79 | |
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Anecdotally, we've probably all seen or heard a little of everything. Dozens of people DRT (dead right there) from a .22. People who have taken 7 .45's to the chest and abdomen and walked away. 357 to the head that just skipped off the skull due to the angle. And I believe everyone of these stories and have seen photographs and reports of each. Crazy things can happen. That being said, the ballistic tests are pretty consistent on what it takes to be a reasonable manstopper. And a few inches of penetration in bare gelatin (even less with skin and clothes to penetrate) ISN"T it. Personally, I wouldn't quibble much with largest birshot, #1, BB, or T shot that some of you have suggested. That's probably fairly close to adequate penetration at across the room ranges. I don't know why you'd limit yourself though. These turkey/goose/duck loads are more expensive than buckshot around here. I also like managed recoil/tactical loads (which are buckshot only AFAIK) because my wife has an easier time with it. If I were forced to use smaller birdshot, I wouldn't trust it for a COM shot. I'd probably aim for the neck or head. I'd also expect to make multiple shots to stop the badguy. Here's a pretty good evaluation of different loads: http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html I know that many of you have seen this. I'm sure some haven't. Keep in mind that bare gelatin equals more or less bare flesh. I've you've ever tried to puncture the skin or a person or animal, you know that the skin itself is more resistant to penetration than the flesh underneath. Also, most criminals will be wearing clothing. In my neck of the upper midwest, they were a lot of clothing this time of year. There is a reason why no law enforcement agency carries birdshot. PLOM, what do you carry in your duty shotgun? Hmmmm... My last post. I don't really have anything to add. Not really sure I added anything from any of the other weekly birdshot vs. buckshot posts. Last edited by nemoaz; November 21, 2008 at 05:37 PM. |
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November 21, 2008, 05:27 PM | #80 |
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duty shotgun is loaded with low recoil 12 pellets buckshot from fiocchi
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November 21, 2008, 05:54 PM | #81 |
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Why Limit yourself
No one will know what the next gunfight will look like, or what it will take to win! Clint Smith
Why Limit yourself by ammo selection? There are more than enough limiting factors using scatterguns as fighting weapons. I load my scattergun with 000 or 00 indoors and have some slugs handy if it goes outside. Good Luck & Be Safe
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November 21, 2008, 06:19 PM | #82 |
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Depends on the application, I load one of my HD shotties with birdshot. Then again, it's 3.5" Steel BB shot from a 10ga. The 12ga gets loaded with 3" #4 Buckshot.
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November 21, 2008, 07:12 PM | #83 | |
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I just figured no one could stand up to one of those, all I was doing though was guessing and not taking into consideration the fact that if I ever did have to shoot someone it probably wouldn't be a normal person. More than likely the vast majority of people would be stopped by having a shotgun pointed at them, more than likely the vast majority of people that didn't stop would be if hit by a load of #2 bird shot. What we have to ask ourselves though is what kind of a person breaks into an occupied dwelling? A normal person? A run of the mill thief who thought no one was home? Possibly, but given the modern day rash of home invasions and bizarre crimes why take a chance? Look, it is actually very rare for anyone to have to point a firearm at someone, its rarer still to have to shoot, but if someone forcibly breaks into your home in the middle of the night while you are at home, do you really want to be armed with birdshot? Some people have said well its just the first shot or two, then I've got buck or slugs. What if one or two shots are all you get? Why take a chance? If you actually had to go to the extreme lengths of shooting an intruder, what would be the bigger worry? The remote lightening strike odds of an over penetrating pellet hurting an innocent, are of birdshot, given all we now know of its shortcomings, failing to stop a determined possibly drugged or psychotic assailant? If we were going to choose a new defense round for our favorite .45 or 9 mm would we pick one that tests showed didn't penetrate deep enough to reach the vitals? If we were going to pick a new deer hunting load would we pick one that failed a penetration test? So why would we pick a defense shotgun load that constantly fails penetration tests? Why? I'll ask again if someone out there has test showing birdshot delivering adequate penetration lets see them. Lets see some proof that bird shot is suitable for defense besides wishful thinking and stories of people being killed by it. I can tell relate stories of people being killed by pellet guns, but that doesn't make them proper defense tools. 100_0715.JPG
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November 21, 2008, 07:34 PM | #84 |
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Birdhshot MIGHT drop a guy dead, but buckshot and slugs WILL, and IF the guy dies 30 seconds after I shoot him with birdshot, how many shots can he fire back at me in that meantime?
If you're trying to save your life and the lives of your wife and children, I would NOT rely on birdshot. Sorry, but my life is worth more then the POSSIBILITY of shooting through a wall. If I lived in an aprtment (and I used to), I would not opt for a shotgun if I was afraid my buckshot would penetrate a wall. I would get a .38 with Glaser ammo and call it a night. |
November 21, 2008, 08:56 PM | #85 |
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I have seen a few SG shooting with birdshot. One was a suicide who put it in his mouth and created a V shaped trough- he was DRT. Another was shot in the abdomen at about 3 feet through a screen door. His intestines were a mess and he ended up with a colostomy bag. About a year later I heard he decided to eat a .45 because the pain was too much.
Bottom line, an attacker may be wearing a heavy wool or leather coat, and that will reduce penetration a good bit, especially with bird shot. If you ever face an attacker who is high on drugs, you will find not much effect from your "rack" sound (I am really tired of that foolish meme) and you may find he does not notice the pain and bleeding of a shallow bird shot wound. Use buck shot if you plan to defend your family- go with bird seed er shot if only your own sorry tail is at risk. |
November 22, 2008, 12:28 AM | #86 | ||
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Quote:
Here is the text of Penal Code §198.5: Quote:
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November 22, 2008, 06:37 PM | #87 |
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Bird shot for home defense?
SOMEone's seen Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds" recently huh.
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November 22, 2008, 10:18 PM | #88 |
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Rick - thanks for the correction
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November 23, 2008, 02:53 AM | #89 | |
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You're welcome. And in this vein, here's an item from News of the Weird:
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November 23, 2008, 08:45 AM | #90 | |
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Pit Bull ammo...gimmick or viable as a choice?
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...pecialtyexotic
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November 23, 2008, 12:42 PM | #91 |
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There are lots of choices for those concerned about over-penetration, without resorting to birdshot.
Low-recoil buckshot has the dual advantage of reduced penetration (due to lower muzzle velocity) and lower recoil to make followup shots easier. Also, 00 buck is not the only buckshot available. 1 Buck and 4 buck both use smaller pellets and have lower penetration of walls, etc. If you are still worried about it, go with BB loads. Smaller than buckshot, but bigger than "birdshot". Check out this link for comparative sizes: http://www.ammobank.com/shotsize.html Personally, I use #1 and #4 buckshot for SD purposes, but that's just me. I don't have any children in my home, and my wife and I sleep in the same room. |
November 23, 2008, 01:19 PM | #92 |
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Pit Bull ammo
Interesting combo, six 00 buck pellets and a 3/4 oz. slug. Being able to fit a 3/4 oz. slug in with six pellets into a 2-3/4" shell makes me wonder if the slug is simply a flat lead disk, which is probably accurate enough at near-contact distances but may veer unpredictably at, say, 30 feet.
All that the site's listing says about velocity of this ammunition is "loaded to the max load." So one question is whether the velocity is adequate, and assuming it is, this thing must kick like the devil. Before relying on such a load, it would be wise to test it thoroughly, but at its price (plus my guess at what the shipping would cost), it's going to cost in the neighborhood of $4 per round. That makes testing a bit expensive but not out of the question. I think, however, that a 3" shell with 12 00 pellets will solve whatever problem this product is marketed to solve (and might even kick less). Last edited by Ricky B; November 23, 2008 at 01:34 PM. |
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