Browning rifles with BOSS system

[warbirdlover]

Could one not achieve the same goal - reduce the harmonic vibration and improve accuracy - by using a barrel de-resonator? You could avoid the increased report caused by the Boss system.

JoeChicago

I played with the LimbSaver de-resonator on my Ruger which was already a sub-MOA rifle. I moved it all over and didn't see any improvement, however I know it works on rifles that don't shoot good groups from talking to others at the range. Looks like heck though. I don't think it's nearly as effective as the BOSS system but a whole lot cheaper.

Schroll down on this link and look at the "AIM" system installed by Gander Mountain gunsmiths....
http://www.gandermountain.com/gunsmith/accurizing.shtml

When I'd run into a wall trying to get better groups out of a rifle with a free floated barrel I'd try putting pressure on the barrel. On some rifles this works!

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[Bart B.]

Browning claims their BOSS adjusts the barrel whip frequency so the bullet leaves when the barrel's stationary. Impossible.

The barrel's never stationary after the primer detonates and burns the powder creating a pressure curve. It wiggles and whips all the time the bullet goes down the barrel and continues for a bit after the bullet's left.

If someone thinks the best place for the bullet to exit is when the muzzle axis is at its highest angle, they need to rethink that. Browning's never proved this happens with their BOSS. Neither has anyone else as far as I know.

'Twas proved over a hundred years ago that the best place for bullets to exit is just before the muzzle angle reaches its highest value as it swings up. Handloading ammo can do this; use the powder charge that gives the smallest many-shot groups at the desired range. With factory ammo, the BOSS may be adjusted to accomplish the same thing, but there's no guarantee.

[barnbwt]

I've been intrigued by the BOSS system since it appears it actually works to improve accuracy, moreso since I own a BAR-based FNAR. Does the device just screw onto a threaded barrel, or is there more to it than that? It's basically a position-adjustable muzzle-break/weight, right? I'm suprised other makers aren't ripping off the concept (patents, I guess...)

TCB

[Keg]

If the gun has a BOSS on it....That is a plus for me....

[natman]

Browning claims their BOSS adjusts the barrel whip frequency so the bullet leaves when the barrel's stationary. Impossible.

The barrel's never stationary after the primer detonates and burns the powder creating a pressure curve. It wiggles and whips all the time the bullet goes down the barrel and continues for a bit after the bullet's left.

You're right, the barrel does "wiggle and whip" from the moment the cartridge fires until well after the bullet is gone.

However, while the barrel is wiggling, there are brief moments when the barrel is indeed stationary, just as the barrel stops wiggling in one direction and before it starts wiggling in the other. That's when you want the bullet to exit and tuning the BOSS allows you to find that sweet spot.

[Bart B.]

Nobody, including Browning, has proved bullets leave at the top or bottom of the muzzle axis swing with the Boss set for best accuracy. One can adjust charge weight 1/10th grain and do the same thing as a quarter turn of the BOSS ring. And no powder charge makes pressure curves exact enough to make all bullets leave at the exact moment the muzzle axis is stationary

It has been proved that best accuracy is when bullets exit just before the muzzle axis reaches its highest angle which more easily and better corrects for velocity spreads.

[natman]

Nobody, including Browning, has proved bullets leave at the top or bottom of the muzzle axis swing with the Boss set for best accuracy. One can adjust charge weight 1/10th grain and do the same thing as a quarter turn of the BOSS ring. And no powder charge makes pressure curves exact enough to make all bullets leave at the exact moment the muzzle axis is stationary

It has been proved that best accuracy is when bullets exit just before the muzzle axis reaches its highest angle which more easily and better corrects for velocity spreads.

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make. First you say it's unproven, then you say it's proven. If you want to quibble about whether the best spot is "just before the muzzle axis reaches its highest angle" instead of standing still, please explain why. I'll grant you that while the muzzle is moving slowly just before it stops is easier to find than when it stops, but I don't see how it's better. Perhaps a citation to your proof would explain it.

[Bart B.]

Once one understands the ballistics for a given muzzle velocity in a 40 fps spread and the departure angle each needs for a given bullet to strike the same place on target, it is easy to figure out where in the muzzle axis vertical swing it's best for all the bullets to leave at. It ain't rocket science. Remember that lower muzzle velocities leave later than higher velocities.

[natman]

Once one understands the ballistics for a given muzzle velocity in a 40 fps spread and the departure angle each needs for a given bullet to strike the same place on target, it is easy to figure out where in the muzzle axis vertical swing it's best for all the bullets to leave at. It ain't rocket science.

It ain't any kind of science at all as far as I can tell.

Again, got a citation?

[Bart B.]

Skip the high level math formulas and look at the last page. That's the best part.

http://archive.org/details/philtrans05900167

On the left side, click on PDF in the "View the book" window.

Simple reasoning is that for slower bullets to strike the same place as faster ones, they all have to leave when the muzzle axis is on the upswing. No other part of the arc lets that happen.

[derelict]

Anyone using a BOSS equipped rifle for long distance shooting? Any adverse effects? I only really see reviews for people shooting at 100 yards or so. Im looking at an M1000 Eclipse in .300WM.

[ripnbst]

Originally Posted by derelict

Anyone using a BOSS equipped rifle for long distance shooting? Any adverse effects? I only really see reviews for people shooting at 100 yards or so. Im looking at an M1000 Eclipse in .300WM.

True most people are zeroing at 1 and 200 yards but tighter groups are tighter groups. It applies at all distances.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I have a stainless stalker in 338 Win Mag with a BOSS, that I'll be changing over from a hunting rig, to a longer range target gun over the next 6-12 months... the 4-16 Burris Posi Lock scope will come off, & a good long range scope added, with resettable to zero turrets... over the last year, I ended up getting over 500 new cases ( bought a 5 gallon pail at the local gun show, factory rejects that didn't have flash holes, ( which I've since remedied ) otherwise they are perfect, & of course unfired... so I plan on developing some good handloads for this cartridge, & will see how the Boss system works for longer ranges...

[derelict]

I figured that tighter groups are tighter groups but was hoping that there might be some feedback from people using them to take longer shots.

Is there any reason why the new X Bolt rifles do not come with this as an option? That is why I am asking. Im not a big game hunter anymore spending more time fly fishing than anything. I will take the odd trip West to see family and am a member of a long distance (500+ yard) range so Im looking for something with longer range ability than the .270 Ruger No. 1 I used to hunt deer around here (max shot was usually 80 yards).

I am really interested in the BOSS system since I really have no interest, nor the time, to hand load.


Are any of these Browning rifles having feeding issues with the WSM? I really wish they offered a traditional 7mm.

[rdavidsonjr]

Contrary to some reports it is neither a weight adjustment or a choke. It is a system that allows you to match the barrel to the load rather than the load to the barrel. Reducing the time consuming powder variations on multiple loads when building a load for a gun to group well. It is accomplished by micro adjusting the length of the barrel so that the bullet exits the barrel in the neutral plane during its harmonic vibration of which all guns do no matter how heavy the barrel is . Granted fluted bull barrels may be above average but they still vibrate. The neutral plane is when the barrel hesitates in the whipping which occurs many times during a shot.It is a matter of a given speed and time matching perfectly to the barrel. Also remember it takes the perfect steady hand to actually see these results. It does however tighten groups of a given round from say 1 1/2" to dime size and that is huge from 300 to 1000 yards. It is the difference between a hit and miss if you are steady ,calculate wind and elevation correctly. I am friends with 3 others besides myself and we are sold on the boss because we have witnessed the results.

[rdavidsonjr]

I have several guns without boss systems and I have to load several variations to find the best group.They still rarely compare to the groups with a properly adjusted boss. I last year purchased a 25-06 Thompson pro hunter thumb hole with a fluted stainless bull barrel. Love it, fits like a glove and gets great groups , but they still can't touch my 7 mm or 300 with a boss.

[the blur]

Can BOSS be added to a BAR, with out BOSS ?

[Bart B.]

Barrels don't hesitate (stop?) their whipping and wiggling until long after the bullets left. Where does any force counter to what keeps them doing that come from? It has to be external to the barrel mass that's moving from inertia.

Check out http://www.varmintal.com/atune.htm

[Magnum Wheel Man]

BART... your last post brings up an interesting thought... I'm wondering, if the stock were rigid enough ( like a premium composite ) & done in the full length style ( to the end of the barrel ), & the barrel fully bedded, not floated, do you think it possible to hold a barrel steady enough to make a difference, or would the wobble forces be so great, that it would "move" some place along the length, & thus negate the fully rigid concept ???

I do like my BOSS rifles, but just talking concepts at this point ( sorry to distract the thread )

[Unlicensed Dremel]

They had standard Bosses with a brake, and non-brake Bosses, IIRC, but you hardly ever see the non-brake Bosses, which would interest me more.

[Mike Irwin]

"Barrels don't hesitate (stop?) their whipping and wiggling until long after the bullets left. Where does any force counter to what keeps them doing that come from?"

The intent of the Boss is not to stop barrels from whipping.

It's to change HOW they whip; in essence, to use that whip to your advantage.


I've seen one person try the "fully bedded barrel" in a centerfire rifle, just as an experiment.

To say that it was an abysmal failure would be kind. It took a rifle that had been shooting a consistent 1.5" groups and opened them up to 4 to 6" groups.

[Magnum Wheel Man]

DREMEL... I was thinking about a spring clip, that could be spread enough to slip over the holes portion of the BOSS, that would spring back, & cover all the holes... or even like 3/4 of the boss, & could be turned independently, to cover the bottom 3/4 of the holes, so it would actually reduce recoil even more, & cut the sound through the holes by 3/4...

[Freakdaddy]

Can BOSS be added to a BAR, with out BOSS ?

No, at least that's what Browning told me when the BOSS first came out as I wanted to install in on my Stainless Stalker. Obviously, you could have a competent gunsmith thread the barrel to be able to install a BOSS system but what you won't have is the engraved hash markings on top of the barrel which is needed to fine tune it to your load.

It appears as though Browning is phasing the BOSS out (along with the A-Bolt being all but gone) so if you're wanting to get one new, your only option is the BAR Mark II Safari but it's only being offered in four calibers with this. I picked up a new 7mm Mag Safari with the BOSS just a couple of months ago as this caliber is completely being discontinued (this should be the last year) in this rifle and it's a rifle/caliber combination I've always wanted. Here's a link to the guns Browning no longer offers or the discontinued caliber offerings of certain models.
http://www.browning.com/products/cat...r-historic.asp

[Bart B.]

Here's how BOSS works:

http://www.varmintal.com/aeste.htm

http://www.varmintal.com/alite.htm

http://www.varmintal.com/atune.htm

http://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm

As long as bullets leave anywhere on the muzzle axis upswing, the velocity spreads they have will be fairly well compensated for. Slower ones leave at a higher angle, faster ones at a lower one. This is why many rifles with all sorts of barrel stiffness and lengths shoot the same load very accurate. The range band with the best accuracy may be at close range, medium or long range; depends on where on the muzzle axis upswing they leave at.

Make your own "BOSS" system by threading the first few inches of the barrel's outside to some fine-pitch thread count. Thread two or three nuts on the barrel then snug 'em up together different distances back from the muzzle. Shoot and move them as your heart desires.

[Bart B.]

Magnum Wheel ask:

I'm wondering, if the stock were rigid enough ( like a premium composite ) & done in the full length style ( to the end of the barrel ), & the barrel fully bedded, not floated, do you think it possible to hold a barrel steady enough to make a difference, or would the wobble forces be so great, that it would "move" some place along the length, & thus negate the fully rigid concept ???

Nope, that won't work. The barrel will still wiggle a little bit and bounce off the wood stock as you sort of explained. That'll change its vibration characteristics, just like a barrel rested on a fence rail hoping to nail a pasture poodle 432 yards away. People have tried full bedded barrels in fore ends only to learn the pressure against the fore end from holding and resting gets transferred to the barrel when it shoots. Best accuracy is cylinder bore; like unchoked shotguns.

You could use a 6" thick 24 inch barrel as it wouldn't wiggle very much at all. Or drill a hole in a 2-foot long six inch square metal block, then epoxy the barrel in it. That would stiffen it about 50% more than a 6" diameter barrel.

It's best to let barrels whip and wiggle all they want to and not bounce off anything doing it (that includes no epoxy pad under the barrel's chamber). It's very repeatable from shot to shot when they're totally free floated. And they're probably the most repeatable part of the shooting system.