|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
January 12, 2021, 03:55 PM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,769
|
We see the trend in LE back to 9 for 1. cost and 2. ease of use for small officers and 3. because the new JHP ammo is supposed to be better than before. I really think that anything beyond cost is just an excuse. The GAP is a solution for a problem that creates another problem. The recoil is still above the comfort level of many small officers so what does it gain for agency use? Nothing.
|
January 12, 2021, 05:14 PM | #27 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2019
Posts: 819
|
Quote:
So why is it that Glock has never made an effort to actually address the fact that their pistols have a reputation for feeling awkward in shooters hands? Sure, they've changed the texture a few times, experimented with finger grooves, and now they have interchangeable back straps, but let's face it, all they have managed to do is treat the symptoms of the actual underlying issue that is poor grip angle/geometry. Honestly, way back in 1994, Smith & Wesson released what was essentially a blatant clone of Glock's design with the Sigma Series, and they even got sued over it. However, the one thing that Smith & Wesson completely changed was the grip, which they based off of the M1911A1. Granted that the Gen 1 Sigmas had reliability issues, but one thing that practically everyone can agree that Smith & Wesson got right was the grip. The grip of the Sigma has remained more or less unaltered to this very day in the current iteration of the Sigma which is the SD Series as well as the M&P Series, albeit the M&P Series (sans the single stack M&P Shield) has replaceable backstraps to better accommodate bigger or smaller hands, but for most the basic grip angle/geometry is viewed favorably. Smith & Wesson figured out how to improve the Glock's grip angle/geometry way back in 1994, by adopting a variation of grip designed in the early 1900s, yet to this very day, the grip angle/geometry of Glock pistols remains more or less unchanged. Why in the world is Glock so stubborn about changing the grip on their firearms? Why are they willing to go to such extreme lengths that they would sooner redesign a cartridge than redesign the firearm itself? Heck, forget "redesign" they don't even need to put money into R&D when they could just do the exact same thing that Smith & Wesson did and adopt a variation of the 1911's grip to the Glock design and the decades-long criticism of their grips would instantly be replaced by glowing praise, so why won't they do it? Sure, the new Glock Gen 6 probably couldn't use the same magazines anymore, but who cares? Would anybody actually be angry at Glock over that? It's absolutely absurd to think that Glock would make an entirely new cartridge sooner than make changes to the grip angle/geometry of their pistols, but then again, it's completely absurd to think that after all this time, Glock still hasn't bothered to address the issue that is the poor grip angle/geometry of their pistols. They've made plenty of internal design changes over the years from pins, to RSAs, to barrels, but they just won't change the grips, eventhough its easily the single most non-cosmetic criticism of an otherwise household name in firearms.
__________________
Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity. |
|
January 12, 2021, 05:49 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2,313
|
Well, I'm the guy who will tell you I really like the Glock grip...particularly my Gen4 G22 with no backstrap installed.
It fits my hand like a glove.
__________________
The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now. |
January 12, 2021, 06:06 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2019
Posts: 819
|
Okay, have you ever made such a statement ever before in your life of your own free will, and if so, could you link to a post in which such a statement was made?
It shouldn't be hard to find at least one example of yourself saying that you like the way the Glock 22 fits your hands before if you actually feel that way and aren't merely just making a statement to the contrary of something I just said. Just sayin'.
__________________
Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity. |
January 12, 2021, 06:23 PM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Posts: 10,223
|
I like the way my 17's (and 37) and 26's fit my hands. The 19's are OK too, but I find thier grips to be slightly cramped. And thats coming from a die hard 1911 carrier/shooter for a number of decades.
I shoot all sorts of things, SIG's, Glocks, Berettas, 1911's, a bunch of S&W revolvers, and a few other things, and on a regular basis, and the Glocks are my favorites. |
January 12, 2021, 07:03 PM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,769
|
The CZ 75 is perfection in the hand. Browning got pistol grips right with the 1911 the first time but the government screwed it up with the A1s arched main spring so most 1911s today have gone back to a flat main springs. Glocks are like a brick in the hand and have wild changes of balance while they are being used. Newer grips have improved them but agencies buying large amounts of guns do so based on price, reliability and ease of training. Safety and ergonomics don't seem to be placed in as high a regard. Too many unintended discharges with glocks due to the short trigger reset. Hopefully we won't get forced to buy only certain smart model handguns in the near future.
|
January 12, 2021, 07:22 PM | #32 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Posts: 10,223
|
Quote:
Funny thing is they point very much like a Glock, and the grip angles are very similar. The reason the military went with the arched MSH, because so many bitched the guns pointed low and the arch raised the POI. Glocks are not a brick, and the 9mm guns are actually narrower in width than my 1911's. Ive checked them both a number of times and its still the same. The "wild changes" thing is BS, as are the safety concerns. |
|
January 12, 2021, 07:38 PM | #33 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
|
Quote:
All evidence says it was ego
__________________
Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not |
|
January 12, 2021, 08:20 PM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2,313
|
“... Okay, have you ever made such a statement ever before in your life of your own free will, and if so, could you link to a post in which such a statement was made?
It shouldn't be hard to find at least one example of yourself saying that you like the way the Glock 22 fits your hands before if you actually feel that way and aren't merely just making a statement to the contrary of something I just said. Just sayin'....”-Forte Well sonny, I have liked lots of pistol grips. Carried the HiPower for a lot of years, carried the 1911 off and on. Even carried a Tokarev occasionally, and that’s a grip plenty criticize, that I happen to like. As for Glocks, the G26 grip works great for me, either with 10rd flat base mag or 12rd with extension. And I was perfectly happy with my Gen3 G17’s grip...both the G26 and the G17 point like a finger for me. However, I couldn’t ignore the police surplus .40 bargains pre-plandemic, and got the Gen4 G22 cheap. I find I really like the new grip texture, and with no backstrap, it puts my trigger finger right where I want it. When I slide my hand onto the grip in the dark, the grooves fit my fingers, and my thumb goes into the tiny thumb ledge on the side, and I know right where it’s pointed. As for proving that I’ve expressed my like of the Glock grip previous to your post, it seems rather narcissistic to accuse me of making it up just be contrary to you. Insulting, even. Just sayin’.
__________________
The past is gone...the future may never happen. Be Here Now. |
January 12, 2021, 09:04 PM | #35 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 22, 2016
Posts: 3,888
|
Quote:
__________________
"We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."
|
|
January 13, 2021, 01:09 AM | #36 | ||
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,993
|
Quote:
Quote:
When I first picked one up, many years ago, I was disgusted with how it felt in my hand--light and plasticky--and how the trigger sounded when I dryfired. But it pointed very well for me right from the start and fit my hand well. As far as the original topic of the thread goes, I have no use for the GAP or the guns it chambers. I honestly thought it might take off, given that it was very similar to the idea of the .40S&W, but better. i.e. the .40S&W was a short, lower-powered version of the 10mm that would fit in a 9mm-sized pistol. The .45GAP was a short, similar-powered version of the .45ACP that would fit in a 9mm-sized pistol. On paper it seemed like a good idea--not something I was interested in (like I'm not really interested in the .40S&W and for somewhat similar reasons) but something that seemed to fill a niche for some folks out there. Just goes to show how wrong someone can be. I think timing is really crucial with this kind of thing. For example, the .41AE which was very similar to the concept of the .40S&W flopped because it came along just a little bit too early.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
||
January 13, 2021, 01:40 AM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,657
|
The older I get, the more I see value in .45 GAP. It was knee-capped by patriotism and fondness of .45acp I believe. I also believe that love of the .45 acp has waned a bit since .45 GAP came out. I actually believe it would do better if introduced new today, with a pistol that would hold 12-13 rounds, than it did when it was.
As for oddball calibers, I’m pretty mainstream when it comes to pistols. I really kind of want to pick up a .38/200 Colt Official Police just to say I have it... but honestly it makes no sense when I have a blue million .38 Spc cases, dies, .38s&w cases are hard to come by, and a decent specimen costs the same regardless of caliber.
__________________
Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018 https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946 |
January 13, 2021, 10:21 AM | #38 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2019
Posts: 819
|
Quote:
I have quite literally NEVER seen anyone say that they legitimately like the Glock's grip, or at least not without following up that statement with another decided less enthusiastic statement like; "It's fine once you get used to it..." or "Although it could be better..." or something else which suggest that they don't actually like it, but rather they like the gun itself so they feel the need to defend it as a whole, thus they hastily provide some half-hearted praise for the grip which they almost immediately back out of. Quote:
The fact that even you admit that you didn't like it at first illustrates that the grip is most often an acquired taste at best that most folks simply learn to live with because they like the rest of the gun so much. Quote:
However, I think that if .40 S&W hadn't been invented, then the FBI would have most likely stuck with 10mm Auto. They might have adopted .357 SIG, but not .45 GAP, as they had already determined that .45 ACP didn't meet their needs because it didn't penetrate barriers as well as they wanted it to, hence why it wasn't adopted in the first place. Furthermore, most Law Enforcement Agencies that adopted the .40 S&W were just following the example of the FBI, so otherwise they most likely would have either chosen reduced power 10mm Auto loads like the FBI or otherwise adopted .357 SIG down the line since it duplicated the performance of the preferred .357 Magnum load. .40 S&W succeeded for lack of anything better because it provided pretty much exactly what the FBI wanted at the time, not because the novel formula of duplicating the performance of another cartridge in a shorter case was a winning formula that would have been equally successful under the same circumstances even if it were a completely different cartridge which the FBI had already passed on because it didn't meet their requirements.
__________________
Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity. |
|||
January 13, 2021, 01:25 PM | #39 | ||
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,846
|
Quote:
Its just a grammar thing no big deal but the established use is to compare the newer to the older, not the older to the newer. Quote:
Now, these were replaced as the service pistol standard with the 9mm, but in the time between when the oceans drank Atlantis (9mm "failure) and the rise of the sons of Aryas (10mmLite/.40S&W) the FBI DID reauthorize agents to use both the .357 and the .45acp if they chose to. The .45acp was authorized, it just didn't get chosen to be the new standard. I think this was a bureaucratic matter more than a cartridge performance matter. Going "backwards" to the .45acp as the standard round would have given the impression that those in charge had made another mistake, and they couldn't have that.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
||
January 13, 2021, 10:12 PM | #40 | ||
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,993
|
Quote:
I think that it’s gotten to the point that people have heard so many afficionados of other guns complaining about the Glock grip angle that some have come believe that it’s really true that there are huge numbers of people buying Glocks even though they hate the grip angle— and even though they have lots of other options available. I guess it's possible though it seems very unlikely. My take is that there is a minority who is very vocal and who don’t like the Glock grip angle and rarely miss a chance to say so. So while it is common to see people complaining about it, it’s mostly the SAME people complaining about it over and over, not a lot of different people (or a majority of people) complaining. Quote:
“When I first picked one up, many years ago, I was disgusted with how it felt in my hand—light and plasticky--and how the trigger sounded when I dryfired. But it pointed very well for me right from the start and fit my hand well.” It was the first plastic gun I had held and I didn’t like the light/plastic feeling and the feeling/sound of the trigger when it dryfired. But the grip angle and grip fit was good.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
||
January 13, 2021, 11:49 PM | #41 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 12, 2019
Posts: 819
|
Quote:
Consider the booming success of the peripheral that is 80% Glock Lowers, and note that the one major difference the majority of them have in common is that the grip angle/geometry has been modified from the standard design. You say that the success of Glock firearms suggests that there are lots of people who do in fact like the Glock's grip, and that those who complain about it are a vocal minority who perpetually repeats their disapproval, but I say that the success of Polymer 80% Glock Lowers suggests otherwise. Also note that there aren't very many Polymer 80% Lowers on the market for other popular competitors to Glock Pistols, including those with no shortage of other aftermarket peripherals for them. Why do you suppose that is?
__________________
Conspiracy theorists are the greatest political spin-doctors of all time. Only they can make the absolute worst political blunders sound like spectacular feats of ingenuity. |
|
January 14, 2021, 12:23 AM | #42 | |||
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,993
|
Quote:
That said, I'm williing to be convinced if there's some study/survey out there with conclusive evidence on the topic. Quote:
Quote:
Another point to consider is that there are other guns out there that point very much like Glocks. The Kahr pistols, for example, point for me exactly like Glocks do. Kahr didn't start making their pistols until well after Glock was established. It seems odd that they would pick a grip angle for their guns that most people didn't like. Again, this points to the idea that while grip angle preference certainly differs, there are people who like the Glock grip angle--enough so that Kahr was able to establish a working business model based on guns that mimic the Glock grip angle. I have no idea how I could prove which camp (those who like it vs. those who don't) is the largest in the absence of a study. Nor how anyone else could either. What is certain is this: There are guns out there with grip angles that are less raked than the Glock pistols. And there are a lot of people who like pistols with those grip angles. The 1911, for example is well liked. There are also pistols out there with grip angles more raked than the Glock pistols--there are a lot people who like them too. The .22LR Ruger MK series is an example, as is the Luger--both of which have been praised, at one time or another, as natural pointers. As I recall, Elmer Keith liked the Luger as a pointer and disliked the 1911, just as one example. And there are Glocks and other pistols that have the same grip angle as Glocks. It seems perfectly reasonable to assume that there are a lot of people who like them as well.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
|||
February 1, 2021, 09:51 AM | #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 16, 2005
Location: AZ
Posts: 3,113
|
I think the grip angle is a red herring.
I think there's two main issues with the Glock grip. The first is that it's a slab uniform-thickness square-cornered grip, which makes it feel much larger than it is (the 2x4 grip criticism). The second is that the infamous "Glock hump" at the base of the grip tends to make it point high for for people used to anything else, although personally I feel this isn't much of an issue for anything Gen4 and newer. If anything, I love a sharp grip angle. Lugers, Ruger's MK series, the Crosman 1377, even the Nintendo Zapper. Great. If anything, it's a testament that Glock managed to ruin it. I have a Kahr MK9 right here. Points great. But no hump. As far as oddball pistol calibers, 7.62x25 is tremendously entertaining. The muzzle blast and muzzle flash is pretty close to a .357 magnum, and bullet drop is really flat. If you were lucky enough to pick up surplus while it was cheap, it's a hoot and a half to shoot. I like the basic concept of .327 Fed Mag, but I haven't fired one, there's not a lot of revolvers in it, and the ammo is expensive and hard to come by. Speaking of weirdo revolver calibers, 9mm Federal seems really cool but .38 Special was just too well established for it to take hold. I have conflicted feelings about .45 GAP. I secretly suspect the whole thing was a ploy to save on tooling by recycling 9mm/.40 frames while touting the theoretical ergonomic advantages without actually changing the ergonomics. I like the price of police surplus .45 GAP Glocks, but I don't like the weirdness of the ammo, and I'm very concerned about availability a decade or two down the road. Seems like it could make sense for something like a car gun or BOB gun or something where the pistol's lifetime ammo supply might be limited Last edited by kozak6; February 1, 2021 at 10:11 AM. |
February 2, 2021, 12:39 PM | #44 |
Member
Join Date: April 1, 2016
Location: North Texas
Posts: 72
|
Seems like it had a decent run with law enforcement for a while. That pesky old 9mm and bullet advancement was one of the reasons the GAP fell by the wayside. Nice little article by Massad Ayoob.
https://americanhandgunner.com/handg...of-the-45-gap/ |
February 4, 2021, 11:12 PM | #45 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,809
|
Quote:
The original 1911 had a flat MSH. Soldiers during WW-1 complained that it shot too low. Experimenting after the war led to the arched MSH which effectively changed the grip angle to almost exactly what Glock uses. The German Luger used a similar grip angle. That grip angle has proven to be the most natural for quick combat style shooting for nearly 100 years. But after WW-2 the 1911 started being modified for target shooting. Shooters favored the flat MSH for this style of shooting and they became fashionable. Today's shooters have been accustomed to guns with that grip angle and to them a Glock or 1911 with an arched MSH "feels" odd. But take a group of 1st time shooters and give them the option of several guns and the Glock grip angle feels the most natural to most of them because they don't have any preconceived ideas about what a grip angle is supposed to be like. Experienced shooters often struggle when they 1st try a Glock. But I've not met anyone yet who didn't shoot one better than they did other guns after they mastered them. And LE agencies have found that new shooters performed much better with Glocks than other guns.
__________________
"If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill |
|
February 15, 2021, 04:05 PM | #46 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 20, 2009
Location: SC Missouri
Posts: 663
|
I have always been a 1911/45acp fan. I like BIG Bullet Holes! I have owned a 1911 for the last 45 or so years. I also like the lighter weight Glock pistols in the G17/G19 grip size. I have owned four G21's in various Generations and every one did not feel right in my hand. I have owned a G22, G35, G27, and G23 and liked all but the G27 just fine. I found the G27 a little slower to get on target. I stumbled into a G38.3 at my local gun shop and purchased it a few years ago. I now had a Glock I was totally happy with. Nice Big 45 bullets that I like, and a grip the same as a G19/G23 that felt right in my hands. It was soon followed by a G37.3. I just purchased one of the Florida HP G37.4's that have came on the market. I lucked out and got one that looks unfired. I have no worry about ammo. I have four 5 gallon buckets of once fired brass I picked up while it was still fairly easy to find. My G38.3 has been my every day carry for a few years now. Like my Custom Colt 1911 XSE Stainless, I have no plan to trade my Glock 45GAP pistols off. I am totally happy with them.
Bob R |
February 15, 2021, 07:32 PM | #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 12,212
|
I actually like the Glock grip angle personally. I also like arched mainspring housings on 1911s. That doesn’t mean I think that a Glock grip can’t be improved. The POF P19 frame is something I really like, and the Shadow Systems MR920 is nice as well. Even though the latter comes with back straps that allow you to change the grip angle from something other than what is standard of Glock, I prefer the back strap that ends up pointing like a Glock. I appreciate the different textures and shaping as opposed to a stock Glock, but the angle is something I want to keep.
I have owned a number of striker fired polymer pistols where the grip seemed to “fit my hand” better, but even after months of shooting them I still shot Glocks better when I went back, (even when I wanted to like those other pistols more). For me the additional canting of my wrists as part of the Glock grip angle helps me control the pistol at speed. That said there are a lot of options on the market. If someone doesn’t like a Glock grip angle or hump there are a lot of alternatives. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
|
|