Powder measure variances

[hounddawg]

what makes the rotating drum on a 10X more accurate than a rotating drum on a RCBS, Hornady. or Harrel ? I have never used one so I am curious. Is it that accurate with stick powder. My Hornady and Lee Perfect are pretty accurate using a fine ball, I would imagine all throws are. It is the stick and course flake that give them a fit not CFE or TAC

[McCarthy]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

what makes the rotating drum on a 10X more accurate than a rotating drum on a RCBS, Hornady. or Harrel ? I have never used one so I am curious. Is it that accurate with stick powder. My Hornady and Lee Perfect are pretty accurate using a fine ball, I would imagine all throws are. It is the stick and course flake that give them a fit not CFE or TAC

The Redding X10 has much tighter tolerances between the drum and the housing (there is basically no play, which is not the case with my Horndays and Dillons), the cup in the Redding is shaped hemispherically which prevents bridging with long stick powders, and the drum is "razor" sharp on the opening, literally cutting through flakes and allowing for more uniform throws.

Accuracy with stick and flake powders is less, but still noticeably better than +/-0.100 gr. That being said, my Dillons can be off by +/-0.165 gr. Again, meassuring this will need a certified calibrated lab grade scale. You will not be able to make this out with a Terminator or beam scale, because they do add their own inconsistency at +/- 0.1 gr.

Redding is known for very tight tolerances. Everybody who owns a T-7 will agree. This turret is much tighter than must single stage presses. This level of precision and quality manufacturing shows in all their products. While not extremely expensive, Redding does not cut corners to make their product cheaper, and in order to compete with Lee, RCBS or Horandy. They also refuse to develop progressive presses because that will ultimately eliminate their reputation for tight tolerances. Their products really pay off.

[hounddawg]

I agree Redding makes nice gear and the 10X comes with baffles and a micrometer adjustment but from what you posted I see nothing that would affect pack density on powders(air space between kernels) that would give the accuracy you claim on extruded.

I take a 1/4 cup measuring cup and fill it with flour the individual granules of flour will be real close together. I take the same measuring cup and fill it with rice it is physically impossible to achieve consistent pack density without turning the rice into rice dust simply because all the sticks of rice would have to align in the same way with every cup. Sticks at angles would cause a major difference in how many would fit in the cup just as sticks of powder do not in align parallel with each when falling from a hopper. Just 4-5 sticks of Varget would make a difference of .1 grain

I can see it giving the accuracy you claim on fine ball or flake but on extruded and course flake I am skeptical

[McCarthy]

We had been there before. And I repeat: buy a 10X and go visit your relative with the lab grade scale.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...powder-measure

[hounddawg]

We had been there before. And I repeat: buy a 10X and go visit your relative with the lab grade scale.

nope, I think I will buy my own lab grade scale and get a Autothrow and be done with it. I seriously doubt the Redding would throw stick any beter than any other rotating drum. Just the physics of the powder sticks will prevent it

I know a lot of benchrest shooters and attend some of thier matches and watched them develop loads at the range. I shoot competitive F class aonce or twice a month and am thinking of getting into Precision Rifle. The short range benchrest guys use Harrels and the F class shooters either use a tuned beam and trickle up or a Autothrow with a lab grade scale. No one I know uses a Redding throw, even the 100 yard BR guys who think plus or minus .1gns is plenty good enough all use Harrels, there might be a Redding 30BR on the line occasionally but all I recall seeing are Harrels and Culvers .

I am not putting the Redding down , I am sure it works great with flake and ball. Also looking at your weights on the ball powder tells me that you have a very consistent hand on the lever. kudos

[Metal god]

I was looking to get this Redding x10 powder measure until I saw it only throws up to 25gr . I first ask 25gr of what . I'm sure it will do 25gr of H-335 and the like but what about IMR-4064 . I bet it barely does 22gr of that powder ???? For me that would be a complete waist of money .

[hounddawg]

for those who can stand a bit of science, here is why no volumetric measure will ever be accurate with stick powder. Pretend flour is TAC and rice is IMR4350 when reading but it is all explained in this simple sentance

Porosity is directly related to bulk density

and the more irregular the air spaces the greater the error

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...s/bulk-density

[sevt_chevelle]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/24...tering-chamber

[hounddawg]

I have three throws now, doubt if I ever buy another but if I did it would be one on these for no other reason than the precision craftsmanship and plus it is the purtiest girl at the dance

http://harrellsprec.com/index.php/pr...culver-measure

Well sometimes I look at old school Lyman 55's on Ebay too

[cw308]

My powder is IMR 4064 , using the ChargeMaster 1500 for the first dump then double check and fine tune with the GemPro 250 to 40.84grains . Only shooting 30 rounds at each range trip so 30 rounds doesn't take that long to weigh in two scales .

[F. Guffey]

Is there an upgrade for the Dillon powder measure that would drop more consistent loads?

One day I suggested an upgrade for the Dillon powder measure; it did not go well.

F. Guffey

[44 AMP]

double check and fine tune with the GemPro 250 to 40.84grains

40.84gr?? is that a misprint?? or are you actually measuring to .01 gr??

I don't have, and am not going to get equipment able to do that. .1gr accuracy has always been good enough for me.

I look at it like this, powder measures are like rulers. Or a tape measure, not calipers or micrometers. Expecting measurement accuracy to the nearest .001" from something marked in 1/8" or 1/16" is foolish.

[hounddawg]

Just my opinion here but I like to think it all depends.

Plus or minus .1 can be anywhere from 40.0 to 44.2 if your target is 44.1. Theoretically that is the accuracy of any electric scale that measures to .1 grains. I can post chrono records where that much deviation can result in a velocity difference of 60 - 80FPS spread and others where it would cause a 10 - 20 FPS spread.

Now if we are talking about 2 MOA @100, or even .2 MOA at 100 a 60FPS spread is of no matter in most cases. But take that same load out to 1000 yards and that 60 FPS difference could be the height of the ten ring. I have a .260 load that shoots .3 at 100 but can barely hold a MOA vertical at 600. Pistol is a entirely different thing. As long as you are over the power factor when competing then all is good unless you are on the top end of a load and push it .1 grains more than the gun can stand.

Now the goal of course is to find those wide nodes so that you can be off .1 either way and it will not matter, but to do that you need precision.

On the precision part of your post I loaded 40 rounds of Varget this morning using my Johnson measure and old M5 scale with the webcam. Now it is a given that a grain of Varget is about .02 to .025 gns. After some practice it is pretty esy to see where the needle is and reach into a container and finger trickle to weight. You find yourself thinking "ok the needle is about 1/4 the way between marks so I need two maybe three more kernels. I am pretty sure all those 40 I loaded are within .02 gns of their target weight even though the beam scale marks are in .1 increments

[44 AMP]

Plus or minus .1 can be anywhere from 40.0 to 44.2 if your target is 44.1.

Do you by any chance mean 44.0 to 44.2??


I understand +/- .1gr, what I don't see is weighing to a HUNDREDTH of a grain when scales go to TENTHS.

And how does this matter to my .30-30 or .45-70?? I drop powder a bit light for the charge I want, (IF the measure variation takes be outside my desired charge, if not, then I just use it as is,) and bring it up to the desired weight by trickling on a scale that reads to the nearest TENTH grain (.1).

[cw308]

The reason I went with the GemPro 250 for my rifle lloads , my powder charge is 40.8 of IMR 4064 then I started over thinking , is the charge closer to the low side or high side of .8 with the GemPro I can make it exactly 40.8 on the nose if I wanted , one average grain ( stick ) of 4064 is .02 . One day I'll get a chronograph to really see if it's worth it .

[hounddawg]

Do you by any chance mean 44.0 to 44.2??

yep, typo

@44Amp - powder load velocity changes are not linear. Going from a load of 43.9 to 44.0 may cause a velocity increase of 50 FPS but going from 44.0 to 44.1 may only give a increase of 5 FPS

keeping that in mind if testing for consistent velocity is the goal which test would you want to rely on

5 test rounds measured on a scale that has .1 resolution

44.1, 44.1, 44.2, 44.0, 44.0

or 5 test rounds measured on a scale with .01 resolution

44.10, 44.10, 44.11, 44.09, 44.09

now unless you shoot at 500 or above on a regular basis where velocity consistency can make the difference between a ten score and a nine or eight you have no reason to care

I load for one thing and one thing only F class. If I were loading hunting ammo or shooting 100 yard bench rest my goals, procedure, and equipment would be completely different.

Load for what you goal is. I would smoke the barrel on the finest hunting rifle in the world shooting a 20 round match,and no hunter in his rightmind would haul a 18 pound singleshot rifle on a elk hunt. A 45-70 might be great for shooting deer in heavy brush but would is not appropriate for shooting P dogs at 300 yards. The ammo is no different, load for your goal

[44 AMP]

Load for your goal. Fine words, words to live by.

Can also be applied to forum posts and answers, but few people do. I know I go off track sometimes myself, usually in response to someone else going afield. SO, lets consider this...

The op said,

I have the Dillon RL 550b and reload 9mm and 10mm for shooting at the range

has, turned into this, 3 pages later...

I load for one thing and one thing only F class. If I were loading hunting ammo or shooting 100 yard bench rest my goals, procedure, and equipment would be completely different.

Your experience in your field of expertise, and me in mine can be useful information, but if we're not focusing on answering the OP's questions, we aren't being as helpful as we might be, and we're just drifting the thread off topic.

So, here's my attempt to get back to the op...
I had a Dillion 450 for a few years, then got rid of it. So I'm vaguely familiar with how their progressives work. If your setup is dropping the powder you are using with an acceptable variance for your purposes, fine. IF not, then you either need to change to a powder that does meter more consistently, or change to a method of charging that gets you the consistency you want/need, even if that involves something other than a progressive press.

There's no free lunch...

[hounddawg]

apologies for the off topic and thanks for reminding me to stay out of pistol and hunting related threads.

In regards to the the original post 44 AMP just gave some good advice

[mkl]

44 AMP wrote:

Not mentioned but also important is the uniformity with which the measure is operated.

If one wants reasonably accuracy, say +/- 0.1 grain from a powder measure, the quote above is the best advice one will get.

I use the RCBS Uniflow with the small cylinder for all my handgun loads and have no problem with Unique powder as long as I use a baffle and the "double tap" method of dispensing. As a matter of fact, I cannot recall going beyond the +/- 0.1 grain variance with any powder with which I've used the Uniflow and the consistent method described above.

My suspicion is that those using the progressive press cannot manipulate the powder measure with the uniformity as those of us who use a single stage press and the batch loading process (50 at a time and one step at a time).

My only point is that if you are turning out several hundred rounds of ammo at one time via a progressive press in a minimum amount of time, you shouldn't expect super accuracy in any of the components in your finished product. Don't worry about it; the ammo will be more accurate than your hold on the rifle/handgun is able to obtain as you are blasting away.

I personally use the Uniflow for all my handgun reloads using the method described above, and a beam balance scale for all my rifle reloads where accuracy of one minute or less is desired at 100 yards.

[F. Guffey]

I personally use the Uniflow for all my handgun reloads using the method described above, and a beam balance scale for all my rifle reloads where accuracy of one minute or less is desired at 100 yards.

I have RCBS Piggy Back 11 presses, I also have the Pro 2000, the presses came with Uniflow powder measures with two drums. I also have the Lil Dandy powder measures that I am impressed with. To go back further I have the Hollywood Gun shop measure and the B&M Visible, Ohaus and Lyman variations of the 55. In-between I have cam operated and powder measures THAT HAVE A dial-o-matic system. The Uniflow and Lil Dandy are the powder measures I use.

Scales, I have three sets of scales that are listed for lab use, my reloading scales outnumber my lab scales 3 to 1, to settle all differences between scales I have the Ohaus check weight set of 47 pieces.

F. Guffey