The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 28, 2018, 07:35 PM   #1
ncpatriot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2009
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 371
Pump or Double Barrel for Older Woman

A friend's mother has been turned down for a handgun permit. I urged him to help her appeal to a judge here. May or may not work out.

She lives in a dangerous neighborhood and needs protection. She is 67, not good health. We've talked some & I suggested getting her a 20 gauge pump shotgun with 18 or 20 inch barrel. May be a lot for her to handle but she does need something, mainly for the home. I am also wondering if she would do better with a 20 gauge or .410 double barrel. Stoeger has the side by side coach gun in 20 and .410, a little under $500 from what I've seen around. The double is very simple to load & shoot, though less firepower.

I like the looks of the Mossberg JIC, very compact. But it only comes in 12 gauge and may be too much for her to handle.

Thoughts?
__________________
Remember the American heroes of Flight 93.
ncpatriot is offline  
Old April 28, 2018, 07:42 PM   #2
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,422
They make some decent 410 SD ammo since The Judge, et al, have come out. If she can't handle a lot of recoil, a 410 pump might do the job
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old April 28, 2018, 08:22 PM   #3
Evan Thomas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Location: Upper midwest
Posts: 5,631
Since you've posted this in General Discussion and not in the shotgun forum, I'm going to take the liberty of suggesting that a shotgun may not be the best choice -- for instance, a pistol-caliber carbine would have a lot less recoil and muzzle blast.

The best thing would be to let her try a few alternatives and see what she's comfortable with -- preferably with the help of a professional instructor. And whatever weapon she chooses, encourage her to get professional training -- and a lot of practice with it.

And it would also be good to look at what else can be done to make her home more secure, so that she's that much less likely ever to need a weapon for self defense. Better locks, securing windows, a security system -- all are areas where a couple of strong, handy friends could make a real difference.
__________________
Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.
Evan Thomas is offline  
Old April 28, 2018, 08:25 PM   #4
ncpatriot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2009
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 371
Actually, I see Cheaper than Dirt has a Mossberg Cruiser .410, styled like JIC, pistol grip. I like that being compact in tight quarters. I don't think I'd seen it before.
__________________
Remember the American heroes of Flight 93.
ncpatriot is offline  
Old April 28, 2018, 08:35 PM   #5
sgms
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2010
Location: Arizona or Ohio depending
Posts: 1,021
Pump will probably be lighter than a double barrel and have more rounds than just 2.
probably some thing like Mosbergs tactical HS 419, has 5 rounds, 19 inch barrel with comp., 6 pounds weight, with a vertical grip on pump slide. Would probably be easier to pump action. Quick look on gun broker they seem to be running 250.00-400.00 dollars.
sgms is offline  
Old April 28, 2018, 09:36 PM   #6
shuvelrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 2, 2011
Location: West Coast of Michigan
Posts: 132
There is also the Mossberg Shockwave available in 20 gauge, price between 350-400. But we do not know if this lady has ever handled firearms before, so there would be the learning curve to work with also. Any gun would be worthless if she was not proficient in it's use, AND being of the mindset to shoot someone if it came down to that. Does she need a permit to own a handgun or to buy the handgun? Or are you referring to a conceal permit, which would not be needed in her own house.
shuvelrider is offline  
Old April 28, 2018, 09:40 PM   #7
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,963
A 67 year old woman with no training doesn't need a pistol-grip shotgun, no matter how cool you think they are.
A Ruger 10/22 with a factory 25 rd magazine might be in order.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old April 28, 2018, 10:33 PM   #8
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,414
Or a Hi-Point 9mm carbine.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old April 28, 2018, 11:29 PM   #9
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,963
Maybe so.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old April 29, 2018, 04:49 AM   #10
turkeestalker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2015
Location: Cottleville, Missouri
Posts: 1,115
A carbine is a good idea though the Hi-Point is not what I would call light, but it could work.
__________________
Vegetarian... primitive word for lousy hunter!
turkeestalker is offline  
Old April 29, 2018, 07:26 AM   #11
ammo.crafter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2006
Location: The Keystone State
Posts: 1,966
no CCW

WHY was she turned down for her permit? Is there a physical limitation that precluded her from effectively handling a firearm?

That aside, does she have the strength to safely handle a shotgun?

Multiple shots from a .22 semi-auto is an effective weapon and can be easily controlled as recoil is eliminated from the scenario.
__________________
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson
ammo.crafter is offline  
Old April 29, 2018, 08:46 AM   #12
stinkeypete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 1,282
Will this firearm actually make her safer, or just make you feel better about the situation?
Without training and ability, it may be you are introducing a $500 bit of potential loot in to a scenario where better locks, a good flashlight, having the cops and fire department on speed dial or perhaps even a security system would be of more practical use.

I remember when a friend’s feisty old grandma was feeling too much of her arthritis to head out in the pre-dawn light opening day of deer season. She woke up and while she was making coffee she saw a big buck just standing in the bottom 40. She went to the gun cabinet, unlocked it, stepped out on to the back porch, and as the buck was still just standing there, shot him at 150 yards with her 30-06. Rode the lawn tractor with trailer down and by the time the boys got home her deer was hanging in the garage.

I mention this because... old ladies can shoot. It just sounds to me like the one you are talking about maybe might not be one of them.
stinkeypete is offline  
Old April 29, 2018, 09:45 AM   #13
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,414
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkeestalker
A carbine is a good idea though the Hi-Point is not what I would call light, but it could work.
I tossed out the Hi-Point by name because it's affordable and reliable. Certainly, any pistol caliber carbine would work, and there are better guns out there. My immediate first thought, in fact, was a Marlin 9mm Camp Carbine, but they're only available used, they're pricey (I don't know if cost is a consideration here), and they have an inherent weakness. Say what you like about the Hi-Points, they're cheap and they work.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old April 29, 2018, 10:25 AM   #14
osbornk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2012
Location: Mountains of Appalachia
Posts: 1,598
Quote:
I tossed out the Hi-Point by name because it's affordable and reliable. Certainly, any pistol caliber carbine would work, and there are better guns out there. My immediate first thought, in fact, was a Marlin 9mm Camp Carbine, but they're only available used, they're pricey (I don't know if cost is a consideration here), and they have an inherent weakness. Say what you like about the Hi-Points, they're cheap and they work.
I agree it is a good choice. I recently paid $269.99 for mine (not on sale) and it is simple, reliable and accurate.
osbornk is offline  
Old April 29, 2018, 10:27 AM   #15
turkeestalker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2015
Location: Cottleville, Missouri
Posts: 1,115
Oh I don't have a problem with Hi-Points at all.
I own a 9mm and a 45 and I bought 45s for both of my sons, I was only mentioning that they are in fact heavy.
__________________
Vegetarian... primitive word for lousy hunter!
turkeestalker is offline  
Old April 29, 2018, 11:12 AM   #16
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: Back in a Non-Free State
Posts: 3,133
Shotgun for a 67 year old lady with health issues is not a good idea. Man, I thought NC was a permissive State until I found out that a permit is required to purchase a handgun. PURCHASE?!

I'm with Bill D on this one. A 10/22 would be a fine tool for HD. A lowly 22LR from a rifle barrel puts out as much energy as a 38 Snub, and I don't anyone here would say a 38 Spl is a POOR choice for SD. The only downside is the whole rimfire thing. However, an extended firing pin replacement and a heavier hammer spring will make the 10/22 deadly reliable.
__________________
Simple as ABC . . . Always Be Carrying
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old April 29, 2018, 12:20 PM   #17
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
"...not good health..." That has more to do with her using a firearm at all. How bad her health is may affect how or if she can physically operate a pump safely. She'd likely be better off with a dog. Even in a "dangerous neighbourhood". Criminals tend to be afraid of dogs.
Mind you, a mag fed, pistol calibre, carbine isn't difficult to operate even if one's health isn't great. You won't be doing it if your hands are arthritic though. Lotta ifs involved.
Any shotgun with no stock is a big kid's, Hollywood inspired, toy. Isn't suitable for anybody defending their home. Regardless of the chambering.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old April 29, 2018, 04:50 PM   #18
TruthTellers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2016
Posts: 3,869
I think Evan Thomas and Bill DeShivs are on the money here. I'm thinking a 20 gauge is going to be too much for her and most .410 pumps hold less than 5 rounds, I believe. I'm not all that up on .410 pumps.

I think a two shot pump is too limiting for an old lady. I don't have a doubt running a single or double barrel shotgun for home defense, but I'm in my 20's, I can get physical if I have to, and it's not like a double is my only gun.

A Ruger or Beretta 9mm Carbine or a 10/22 with 25 round mags will go a long way for home protection and the ammo is cheap to shoot.

One thing you may want to consider is the Ruger Charger pistol. You can buy an adapter that will fit an AR buffer tube on it and that will allow use of a pistol brace that is adjustable so she can get the optimum length of pull. Also, the barrel is 10 inches, so she'd have a nice compact .22.

It doesn't have any iron sights on it, just a rail for an optic. I think a red dot would be a good choice, but a laser could also be done as the Charger comes with a piece of rail underneath to mount a bipod.
__________________
"We always think there's gonna be more time... then it runs out."
TruthTellers is offline  
Old April 29, 2018, 06:49 PM   #19
Model12Win
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 20, 2012
Posts: 5,854
.410 pump such as this Mossberg:

https://www.mossberg.com/product/500...ecurity-50359/

Not sure what is on the end of the barrel, though, some kind of compensator? I'd rip that off there in a heartbeat, useless extra length for a house gun. Other than that this is set up about perfect. This and some 410 buck would be ideal.
Model12Win is offline  
Old April 29, 2018, 07:03 PM   #20
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
I have recently seen the new Ruger 9mm carbine in action. It is light and trivial recoil. Shotguns are not the way to go - let's skip the god of thunder's hammer cliches.

I had a coworker who could never understand why his frail elderly wife wouldn't go shoot the 12 gauge pistol grip he bought for her defense. He was an idiot. There was a recent show with Michael Bane and Gabe Suarez shooting various pistol grip, Shockwave type and fully stocked shotguns. See if it is online and then rethink a shotgun.

Pumps are notorious for malfunctions if short stroked, etc. - esp. with folks with little practice. The next shot is a bear if not held properly.

A 10/22 she could shoot would be better than a shotgun that she can't.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old April 29, 2018, 09:02 PM   #21
joed
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2014
Posts: 442
I'll take a guess she is pretty much helpless. I doubt she could work a pump or lift a double barrel.

I honestly have no advice that I can offer.
__________________
The 6 gun was once as common as the cellphone is today, and just as annoying when it went off in the theater.
joed is offline  
Old April 29, 2018, 09:50 PM   #22
CockNBama
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2014
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 206
I'm surprised to hear this is happening in NC. Must she have a permit to own a pistol?
CockNBama is offline  
Old April 30, 2018, 08:10 AM   #23
Siggy-06
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2014
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,148
Mossberg 500 youth/bantam in .410 will do her good. Can be found for $300ish
__________________
Flicks just like a lighter, just a different kind of fire.
Siggy-06 is offline  
Old April 30, 2018, 08:27 AM   #24
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 4,294
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
I have recently seen the new Ruger 9mm carbine in action. It is light and trivial recoil. Shotguns are not the way to go - let's skip the god of thunder's hammer cliches.

I had a coworker who could never understand why his frail elderly wife wouldn't go shoot the 12 gauge pistol grip he bought for her defense. He was an idiot. There was a recent show with Michael Bane and Gabe Suarez shooting various pistol grip, Shockwave type and fully stocked shotguns. See if it is online and then rethink a shotgun.

Pumps are notorious for malfunctions if short stroked, etc. - esp. with folks with little practice. The next shot is a bear if not held properly.

A 10/22 she could shoot would be better than a shotgun that she can't.
Good advice.
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us
MarkCO is offline  
Old April 30, 2018, 09:06 AM   #25
Don Fischer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2017
Posts: 1,868
410 probably wouldn't bother her at all. Have the barrel cut back to min length and have the stock fitted to her. Then get her out to where she can shoot now and then. I think it's a bad idea to put a gun in some one's hands that doesn't already shoot. Best thing I heard was an alarm system. Think I'd put dead bolt's on every door and rig the window's so they can't be opened all the way. Probably motion detector light's would be enough but I'd put them with the alarm system. A gun is not the answer to all problems. Putting one in her hands could make the event worse should she have second though's about shooting another human being.
Don Fischer is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.08668 seconds with 8 queries