New Design for Low Recoil and Nozzle flip

[Erhan]

Hi,
İam new in this Forum.İam from the middle east and mechanical skilled...
in the video link,i want to introduce you a new Gun mechanic invented by me.(Patent pending)

The specs are :
Width:single stack 20mm / double stack 27mm
Weight:steel 780 gramm / polimer 580 gram
Caliber 9*19
Operation: Blowback,fix barrel,double Extractor,simple dissasemble
Double spring controlled recoil operation with different timing.
Very low slider Mass(150 gram),very low Bore axis (11 mm).So very low Nozzle flip and felt recoil....
The Hammer is integrated in the slider and they are moving together!During firing,a part of the Momentum of the Hammer was added to the sliders mass!
This is the force,wich keep the breech closed during firing!This is the key factor of this design..
There is one thing i get a lot of critic and i agree!The slider is secured by a 6mm thick keypiece...
.İ use this gun severeal hundred times and choose the material double strong then necessary,because for my own security...
But people dont like that..So i have a solution for that in my mind,wich dont affect the easy strip down...
Please keep in mind,this is a prototype and not very well manufactured.The point, is the working princip...İts not ready and needs fine tuning and a lot of tests before its ready for the market...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiG2zEcD4wI

Thank you

[HighValleyRanch]

welcome to the forums. I applaud your ingenuity and mechanical skills to create something different.
However, I don't see how the momentum of the hammer affects the recoil, since the hammer has already completed it's movement BEFORE the round is fired, i.e. contact of the firing pin and then the primer detonates. The only inertia (momentum) is the weight of the hammer to help with the recoil. That is the weight added to the overall weight mass of the slide against the recoil impluse as it's a fixed barrel blowback design.

Would like to see the actual muzzle rise of it compared to something like the SW EZ .380 which went way from the blowback concept to help reduce the recoil. And of course, the prototype being steel the weight would help in reducing the small amount of .380 recoil impulse anyways.


Good luck with your venture.

[Erhan]

Thank you

The Hammer dont finish its movement with firing.When the primer is ignited and the case wants to move back,the hammer have still momentum....
A short video wich shows two rounds...124 grain standart ammunition.and this is not 0.380 ..this is 9*19 para

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SExGGrTmmvU

[Erhan]

The weight of the Hammer is 17 gram and act like a crank with a 1 to 3 ratio due is connection point...And when we calculate his speed,then we have enough inertia to keep the breech locked.....And now we have a halfweight slide,that we have to stop behind the magazine.Also the springs stop the slide smoothly and the bore axis is so far i know the lowest...All together makes the difference....You are right,with saying this is the steel frame..i didnt make tests with polimer..So i cant say anything...

[HighValleyRanch]

When the primer is ignited and the case wants to move back,the hammer have still momentum....

Momentum from what? Is the hammer still moving FORWARD when the primer goes off?

I misread your original post as I thought it said 9 x 18.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Erhan

The Hammer dont finish its movement with firing.When the primer is ignited and the case wants to move back,the hammer have still momentum....

I'm sorry, but after seeing the video and your description of the slide and hammer -- the above statement is impossible. The transfer of momentum (kinetic energy) from the hammer to the slide and firing pin is almost instantaneous. The firing pin then has to travel forward, impact the primer, deform the primer, and then the primer has to ignite and then fire the powder charge. By the time all that has taken place, the hammer has long since finished transferring its energy to the slide and firing pin.

[Erhan]

Hi,
Well,then i have no another explanation.i know that the breech is locked during firing...i know that my slight weights 150 gram and the spring rod weights 50 gram...i know that,for 9×19 para ammunition and a barrel length of 11 cm the total moving mass, must be 350 gram approximately...
So,with nearly half of the weight it works......you claim,firing pin touch and ignite the primer and stop immediatly and loss all his energy,so the hammer too...i claim,during firing,the firing pin,so the hammer dont stop and keep moving forward,or at least have more inertia then just their own mass....Maybe some experts can help us..
Thank you

[Erhan]

Hi
There are some slow mo videos in youtube.Maybe they can give us a idea...allso you can see,the lowest bore axis is striker one with 12 mm...The video is made by Arsenal firearms.i just give a link
https://youtu.be/WOirbcsCQ1o
Thank you

[reddog81]

With enough mass and hammer spring strength the hammer can help hold the slide forward some. On a 1911 you can change the shape of the firing pin block or increase the hammer spring weight to retard the gun from unlocking. I have no idea how much force is necessary to keep the gun locked while firing but in theory it should be possible.

I can't imagine the hammer continuing to exert pressure on the firing pin during the firing sequence being a good idea. Pierced primers would surely result and I would think a setup like this would mean whenever the hammer is forward the firing pin is protruding into the breech face.

Either way it appears to be a relatively smooth shooting gun.

[Aguila Blanca]

The hammer helping to hold the slide forward does not make a gun into a locked-breech firearm. In a locked breech action, the barrel is physically interlocked to the bolt (which is what the slide is, in a semi-auto handgun) during ignition. Otherwise, it's a blowback or delayed blowback action.

This design appears to be a delayed blowback action.

Originally Posted by Erhan

you claim,firing pin touch and ignite the primer and stop immediatly and loss all his energy,so the hammer too...i claim,during firing,the firing pin,so the hammer dont stop and keep moving forward,or at least have more inertia then just their own mass....

If the hammer doesn't stop when it impacts the slide, where is it moving, and how is it moving? If it isn't moving, it has stopped and it has transferred its kinetic energy into the firing pin and the slide. The component used to actuate the firing pin is small, so the remainder of the energy goes into the slide. But ... the slide is in the gun. If the slide is already closed (which it should be, if the gun is to be fired safely, then no movement of the slide relative to the barrel and receiver is possible. That means the remaining energy from the hammer impact translates into a slight forward motion of the entire pistol.

If your design has no locking lugs, it is not a locked breech. That's not a matter of opinion, that's a matter of definition.

I'm not criticizing your initiative in coming up with an ingenious prototype. I think it's great that you are thinking "outside the box." But your description is not accurate for what's happening as the gun fires.

Let's remember that the Hi-Point pistols -- all of them, from .380 ACP through 9mm, .40 S&W, and up to .45 ACP -- are ALL blowback pistols. It is possible to use a blowback action on higher-power, heavier rounds.

[Erhan]

Hi,
İam thinking...When the firing pin moves 1mm into the primer,its enough for detonation..the speed of detonation is very high!About 6400m/s...Much much higher then the speed of the Hammer!Now the primer is soft and our firing pin keeps moving in it..maybe a half or 1 mm more!Now,does the Hammer really stop during detonation?...Or is the Speed of detonation faster and hit back before the Hammer stop....Yes,there are a lot of Blowbacks and fix barrel guns...But no one of them have a lightweight slide and all of them recoils pretty much.....İ am dealing with this idea for a very long time...So your answer help me to look from adifferent angle,that what iam thankful for..

[TunnelRat]

Yes,there are a lot of Blowbacks and fix barrel guns...But no one of them have a lightweight slide and all of them recoils pretty much.

There is a reason blowback designs need a heavy slide.

[Erhan]

Yes,i now the reason....But heavy slide means heavy felt recoil..Thats the point where i have a solution for...

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by Erhan

But heavy slide means heavy felt recoil

Interesting theory.

Try this experiment:

Weld your slide to something really heavy, let's say a battleship, about 45,359,200,000 grams (50,000 tons for us English unit guys).

Load your gun and pull the trigger. Should be tremendous felt recoil, right? Probably throw you backwards 50 or 60 meters (yards for us English unit guys), just like getting shot in the movies! After all, according to you, heavy slide = heavy felt recoil.

In the real world, you wouldn't even be able to feel the gun fire.

If a heavy slide increased felt recoil, and a lighter slide decreased felt recoil, then a revolver or a fixed barrel firearm, like a Thompson Contender, with NO slide, would have less felt recoil than any semi-auto with a slide. But in actuality, you'll find that the vast majority of shooters will say that a semi-auto has LESS felt recoil than a revolver or fixed barrel firearm of equal caliber, weight and bore height. The reason for this is because of the way physics works, they all have the same FREE recoil, but the moving slide of a semi-auto spreads it out over a longer time period, providing less FELT recoil.

Due to Conservation of Momentum, the momentum of a free recoiling firearm (not just the slide) is equal and opposite in direction to the momentum of the bullet (or shot charge and wad column) and the propellant gases. Your gun is heavy for a small 9mm, I would expect comparatively light felt recoil no matter what recoil system was used.

A moving slide compressing a recoil spring merely spreads the recoil impulse over a longer time interval, providing LESS felt recoil. Total recoil impulse stays the same, it is just softer (lower magnitude) and spread out over a longer time interval.

I would expect your light, fast moving slide to spread the recoil impulse over a shorter time than a heavier slide moving an equal distance, meaning that the magnitude of the recoil force must be higher. As far as FELT recoil, you can claim anything you want and no one can prove differently.

SAAMI formula for free recoil (NOT felt recoil. Felt recoil is totally subjective, you can claim anything you want) is here if you're interested:

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/GunRecoilFormulae.pdf

Watching the video of your gun shooting, it looks like what I would expect from a 1.7 pound (about 50% more than a Glock 43) 9mm.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Erhan

The Hammer dont finish its movement with firing.When the primer is ignited and the case wants to move back,the hammer have still momentum....

Fundamental question: Is the firing pin an inertia firing pin, or a contact firing pin? You say the hammer is still moving when the primer is ignited. I shoot 1911s, The 1911 uses an inertia firing pin -- at rest, the tip of the firing pin is not in contact with the primer. Even when the firing pin is depressed to the point of being flush with the face of the firing pin stop, the tip still has a long distance to travel.

This means that in the firearms I am familiar with, the hammer will have stopped (due to contact with the slide assembly) long before the firing pin even touches the primer. Does your design not use an inertia firing pin?

[Erhan]

Dear 45 auto
Then another experiment...Load your semi auto,fix the slide with duct tape to the frame...And shoot
Now do the same without fixing...
Wich feel better?
İn the most semi autos it is not the spring wich stop the slide..İts the frame..The fast moving slide will be stopped by the frame...Now you have two slides..One total mass is 350 gram and moves with the same speed and stopped by the frame..The other moving mass is 200 gram ,same speed and stopped by a spring...Wich feel better?

Yes,you are right,felt recoil is relative...But Nozzle flip is not.We can see and test it better..Lets talk about nozzle flip then...

[Erhan]

Dear Aguila Blanca

No,my firing pin is not an inertia firing pin.The pin is always connected with the hammer during firing..

[HighValleyRanch]

!Now the primer is soft and our firing pin keeps moving in it..maybe a half or 1 mm more!Now,does the Hammer really stop during detonation?

Even if we granted you the theory that your hammer is still moving forward 1mm by the crushing effect of the primer, LOL, that small amount would have little effect on the "nozzle rise".

es,you are right,felt recoil is relative...But Nozzle flip is not.We can see and test it better..Lets talk about nozzle flip then...

I believe that your higher bore axis ratio of 11mm helps to reduce the muzzle rise more than anything in the hammer mechanics. But the measurement in my understanding should be to the point where the web of the hand contacts the gun, not the top of the overhang as in the slow mo video. the web of the hand is the pivot point of the arc.

[Erhan]

Dear HighValleyRanch

İn Blowback design,there are formulas that give us the the total mass,wich is needed to keep the breech locked during firing...This is for 9*19 124 gr ammunition and 11 cm barrel length,350 gram....My mass is total 200 gram...So that means i need 150 gram...We have a hammer with a 1 to 3 ratio and 17 gram mass...Even a little movement of this hammer will multiple his impact...Otherwise this mechanic couldnt work....İts not the hammer wich has effect on nozzle rise,its the lightweight slide,wich has effect on nozzle rise...The Hammer is the solution to keep the Slide lightweight...

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Erhan

Dear Aguila Blanca

No,my firing pin is not an inertia firing pin.The pin is always connected with the hammer during firing..

Then I don't think many people will be interested in your design. Is it single action or double action? If it can be carried with the hammer down, what prevents an accidental discharge if the pistol is dropped?

[Erhan]

Dear Aguila Blanca

Good question.The Hammer is always cocked..There is no safety lever..Just grip safety..
The trigger bar is always down..When you touch the trigger ,the bar rise up and catch the sear....The design of the sear prevents the gun from discharge in any kind of falling to the ground..Even if the sear broke,the broken part lock the Hammer..The only way to firing is the trigger...of course if you drop the gun in fire,thats nothing i can prevent...İf you pull the trigger half and change your mind,the sear will move to its safe position automatically...

[Erhan]

20180525_203018.jpg

Here is a drawing from the Mechanic of the sear and Hammer.There are two springs witch work opposite...Also as different from many mechanics,the trigger bar moves in front direction..That means if the slide is not totally closed,the trigger helps to close it,because the force is in this direction...İn Glocks the trigger and striker works opposite.

[jetinteriorguy]

First of all, I think this design is very very ingenious. I love the simplicity and I think you've done a marvelous job. But, I would tend to think the lack of muzzle flip is more due to the recoil spring weight and design, the relatively low bore axis, and the extra weight that stays stationary over the barrel as opposed to any affect that the hammer has on the recoil. I'd love to see this get refined and tested for accuracy and durability. I hope this happens for you and would love to see this succeed. Good luck to you.

[Erhan]

Thank you very much...Nice to get Messages like yours..

[HighValleyRanch]

lack of muzzle flip is more due to the recoil spring weight and design, the relatively low bore axis,

I wrote: "I believe that your higher bore axis ratio of 11mm helps to reduce the muzzle rise more than anything in the hammer mechanics. "

as opposed to any affect that the hammer has on the recoil.

I wrote: "Even if we granted you the theory that your hammer is still moving forward 1mm by the crushing effect of the primer, LOL, that small amount would have little effect on the "nozzle rise"."

LOL! He just said exactly what I did, but much nicer!