Problems loading 30-30

[bigarm]

I am having problems setting up to reload for 30-30, maybe some of you can help me. I am using a Dillon 550b. I bought RCBS cowboy dies because I am loading my own cast and powder coated bullets. I used a Lyman 311440 mould that is a flat nose bullet between 150-160 grains. I put the sizing die in station 1 and the brass sizes fine and fits in a case gauge fine after sizing. In station 2 I have the Dillon powder measure. In station 3 I have the expanding die and in station 4 the seating and crimp die. Everything seems fine until the seating/crimping station. When I follow the directions and set the seating it seems fine, but I can not get the crimp to set so it will chamber or fit in a case gauge. I need help. What am I doing wrong? I have never used a combo seating/crimping die, have always done separately. However, no more dies or stations. What is my solution? What am I doing wrong and what can I do to solve this problem?

[Roughedge]

I run the powder die in the second station and it expands the mouth as it dumps powder, in the third is the seating die and the crimp die is in the 4th hole.

[condor bravo]

While this will not fix the seating/crimping problem, your references to stations 2 and 3 are confusing. If you are using the 550B powder measure, flaring and powder charging occur at the same time at the same station where the powder measure is set up. If on the other hand you are using seperate stations to flare and charge powder, it sounds like you have the stations reversed. Flare at station 2 and charge powder at station 3. However cannot visualize the bullet seating problem. But for trying to correct things, make sure you are applying a roll crimp into the bullet's crimping groove, assuming it has one, or a good taper crimp if not (hoping not to stir up a crimping debate here). The RCBS seating die should be able to perform the seating/crimping operation with no difficulty. If the seating problem continues to exist, describe the problem in a little more detail. Are the bullets tightly seated or loose in the case? Will the rounds chamber?

[condor bravo]

One possibility to check on: If the rounds will not chamber, see if there is a bulge on the case right at the base of the shoulder. If so, that means too much pressure is being applied to the crimp which collapses the case below the shoulder, resulting in the bulge and preventing chambering. Any such rounds will have to be disassembled and the cases resized. Then of course continue the reloading by applying less pressure on the crimp.

[bigarm]

Actually on rifle cases, I don't think the powder measure flares the case. The powder funnel is completely different from the straight walled handgun case powder funnels I have used.

[Blindstitch]

My bet is on the crimp causing the problem.

[hartcreek]

Your order is not right. You are dropping powder and then sizing you need to size before dropping powder. You also could be crimping to much . How about some photose so we can see?

[Pathfinder45]

With a typical 30-30 seat-and-crimp die, it is impossible to get a consistent crimp unless all cases are exactly, I mean, exactly, the same length. Therefore, you must trim all cases every time you load them. An excellent alternative is to crimp as a separate operation from seating, using a Lee Factory Crimp die. No more buckled cases and trimming cases is less crucial. It's the only way to go for me anymore with 30-30. Once you try it, you'll never go back. By the way, the Lee crimp die is very inexpensive.

[hartcreek]

He can run the cases through some calipers right out of the tumbler to eliminate and outlier cases that may be too long. If the OP gets his sequence right first that will help as will photos. Loading 30-30 is no different then my necking up the same brass fro .32 Winchester Special and loading them.

[Pathfinder45]

Again, if you don't trim every time, the case lengths will be inconsistent, which will make the crimps inconsistent at best, and bulge some necks enough to make difficult or impossible chambering. The time spent measuring and culling would be better spent trimming. With the Lee factory crimp die, you'll never buckle a case neck again. And, the crimps will be consistent even if the case lengths aren't. I think I paid $15.00 for mine. After using one you'll wonder how you ever got along without it.

[hartcreek]

Pathfinder not necessacerily it all depends on how much crimp he is using and at this point we aint seen nothing. If he is crimping to hard he could wind up smashing most of them. Crimping in a cannalure give you a bit of a range on the crimp so that you do NOT have to trim the cases every time.

[chiefr]

Bigarm nailed it. The powder measure.

IMHO and as a Dillon owner, I have never been able to load RIFLE cartridges with standard dies using cast bullets in a Dillon. I am talking cast bullets requiring a heavy crimp needed in lever guns. A custom die may fit the bill.

I can use standard dies with a single stage and obtain desired results with cast bullets for rifle.

There are exceptions with 44-40 etc, These dies allow heavy crimping.

[44 AMP]

I don't know the Dillon dies, can't help there, sorry, but I do know the .30-30.

A couple of questions, is the expander /mouth flare a short stem? Meaning, there is no chance it is touching the powder? It should not. If it is, swap the order of the dies so you flare for the cast bullet before dumping the powder. This will also mean a slight adjustment in the powder die.

Cases MUST be a uniform length!! This doesn't mean you have to trim them every time, but it does mean you have to check them.

I don't know what your Dillon instructions told you to do, but I am very familiar with the process with Lyman, RCBS, and other standard dies.

Take a prepped case, with bullet, and use the steater die to seat the bullet so the case mouth is in the middle of the crimp groove (no crimp). Then back off the seating stem a ways. With the ram at the top, screw the seating die body down against the case (you will feel it). Make sure it is the die BODY (crimp shoulder) touching the case, not the seating stem touching the bullet.

Lower the ram a bit, and screw the die body down a tiny bit more, maybe 1/10th of a turn. Run the round in, and crimp it. Take it out and look at it, test fit it in the chamber. Repeat this process until you have both the desired amount of crimp (visual) AND it chambers properly. Stop. Lock the die body in place. Then put the properly crimped round back in the die, and screw the seating stem down until it firmly contacts the nose of the bullet.

You are now set up to seat and crimp in one step.

Good Luck!

[condor bravo]

Since most of us are placing the failure to chamber blame on the crimping (probably over crimping), bigarm should let us know if that appears to be the case, in particular if the telltale bulge appears below the shoulder. If so, that would nail the problem for sure.

[Pathfinder45]

If you set up your die to properly crimp the longest cases, the shortest ones coud have little to no crimp. If you set the die up to properly crimp the shortest cases, the longest ones will be over-crimped, buckling the case mouths or shoulder enough to interfere with chambering the round. You can have a significant number of rejects. Even new cases aren't all that consistent. My results were unacceptable until a started trimming every case, every time. And then, I discovered the Lee Factory Crimp die. Now, I trim new and once fired cases; after that it doesn't much matter anymore. When you see how they work for the first time you see that it's a more excellent way.

[bigarm]

Well I did trim all the cases after resizing. I found out that I can use the powder funnel for a 30 carbine to flare and charge with powder at the same station. I ordered one of those and will eliminate the one at station 3. I also ordered a Lee factory crimp die and will try seating at station 3 with the RCBS die and crimping at 4 (with the Lee) like I do on pistol cartridges. We will see if that helps. If that doesn't do it, I will need to look into the bullet I am casting. I can try sizing to .309 or .308 instead. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I do think the crimping is at least part of the problem because things seem to go okay until I try crimping. The sized cases will pass the case gauge, so I think I am okay there. It seems that everything goes okay through seating and then when I try to crimp things don't go as well.

[condor bravo]

But will the rounds now chamber or is that still the problem? The .30-30 is such an easy cartridge to reload that these other issues under consideration shouldn't be issues at all. Straighten out the die sequence and that will result in smoother operation but it doesn't seem like the chambering problem is being properly recognized.

[Pathfinder45]

Maybe you could post a few pix of the problem ammo. I size my cast 30-30 bullets at .309 while seating a gas check in a Lee sizing die. The other guys here will be more helpful with the multi-stage equipment problems. While I'm an avid reloader since the early 70's, I keep it simple. My press is a Lyman Spartan that could be older than me.

[condor bravo]

Bigarm:

Is the problem still a failure to chamber?

Since you haven't indicated one way or another if a bulge exists below the shoulder, an indication of applying too much pressure to the crimp and collapsing the case, I'm going to assume that there is not a bulge and take another approach. Maybe the non-chambering problem is not with the crimping but with the sizing die instead.

Size a case, do nothing else, and see if it will chamber. If so, sizing is not a problem and we are back at square one. But if it will not chamber, that means that the case is being sized to the point where it is longer than chamber length from base to shoulder and is usually easily correctable.

Assuming that the sizing die is not contacting the shell holder, screw the die down in small increments, checking the chambering after each adjustment, until hopefully the shoulder will be pushed back enough and the case will chamber properly. Then proceed as usual.

I wouldn't bother getting a Lee crimping die; the RCBS seating/crimping die will do the job perpectly.

[Tinbucket]

I load for thee .32 special but have for the .30-30. The crimping die is set too hard. I've seen it on a number of calibers including the 5.56. the swelling of the case right at the cannelure or mouth and on the shoulder is because the crimping eaasting die is putting too much pressure on the case.
You might find the crimp is not exactly in the cannelure too which contributes to selling of the case mouth. Belling the case mouth too much can contribute to the problem as the die squeezes it back in.
Run all the cases through your trimmer. Ones that don't need it ill zip through and ones that do will get trimmed. If you have a lot not long enough turn the longer ones down a bit so that all are the same length.
Same case length is critical when using a crimping die.
Only bell mouths enough that seating does not shave or smear any lead.
Gas checked lead bullets really help.
If the bullet still tries to seat deed after lightening the depth of the crimp under recoil, with full magazine. then try the Lyman collet crimping seating dies.
This is experience with RCBS I still haven't got Dillon progressive up and running.

[condor bravo]

Tin:
I don't think we really know yet where the problem is since there has not been sufficient feedback from bigarm. We've been assuming for the most part that over crimping pressure has caused the case to buckle beneath the shoulder but bigarm has not commented on that. My latest approach, see post 19, was to suggest the sizing die could be responsible for elongating the case and thereby resulting in failure to chamber. Perhaps bigarm hasn't had the time to check that out yet. We need his feedback to resolve this thing.

[bigarm]

Well I am out of town for a few days. I will try to post pictures when I return home. The completed rounds are not chambering, but I did not try to chamber a sized piece of brass. I need to do that. I did check it with a case gauge. The sized brass would pass the case gauge, but the completed rounds would not. The completed rounds stopped with quite a bit of case still out of the gauge which made me believe the problem was after the sizing, but as I said I did not try to chamber the brass after sizing. Thanks for the help so far. We will see what happens when I get back home.

[bigarm]

Went back to work on it today. Had a little more luck, but still problems. I put the Dillon powder funnel for the 30 carbine in the powder measure and can bell the case with that, but if I am not VERY careful, one side of the case will get crushed. Not sure why that is happening. I moved the RCBS seating/crimping die to station 3 and seat only with it. I put a Lee factory crimp die in station 4. I will get a finished round or two that pass the case gauge then one that won't fit. I need to work some more with it and see if I can get some consistency. A couple of other things - I bought 50 new pieces of Hornady brass (the only new brass I could find) and used it today. When I size the cases, the empty cases will fit both in the case gauge and the chamber of the rifle, so station 1 does not seem to be a problem. That is the update for far. Not where I want to be but making a little progress.

[condor bravo]

Crushing one side of the case neck is somewhat of a common problem and can occur when the case is slightly tilted rather than properly centered when the case is passed over the powder funnel. The edge of the funnel catches an edge of the case mouth and causes the crushing. About the only cure, now that you know it is happening, is to very slowly operate the handle at that stage of the procedure and to make sure that the case is completely upright in the shell plate.

Some of the loaded rounds will pass the case gauge test but others won't. But will the rounds chamber that don't pass the case gauge? If so I would just be satisfied with the way things are and forget about the case gauge. I load for well over 40 rifle cartridges and about the same number of handgun cartridges and have never used a case gauge.

[44 AMP]

but if I am not VERY careful, one side of the case will get crushed. Not sure why that is happening.

I don't mean to sound rude, but in my opinion it is happening because you simply aren't using the best tools for the job. And what I mean by that is loading cast bullets in a bottleneck rifle case on a progressive loader.

IT can work. Certainly. But you have to get everything just "right". Progressives are wonderful for short, strait cases, like pistol rounds but have their issues with longer cases. Also, there is the "feel" issue as well.

With a single stage press, you get a feel for things, and can often stop something bad before it ruins a case, or a bullet. You can also do this with a progressive, but unless you are using it as a single stage press, its really tough to notice a minor thing.

The shell plate of the progressive often allows a long (rifle) case to tip more than the shellholder of a single stage press does.

Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it. The "best" set up for loading cast bullets in a .30-30 is a single stage press with a proper expander die for the cast bullets. It should be set so as to just barely flare the case mouth, to prevent shaving lead from the bullet. It should not do anything else. The expander ball in the sizer die handles ensuring the neck ID is correct.

progressives are great for mass producing standard loads. Cast bullets in a .30-30 is more in the "specialty" class, I think. You can do it on a progressive, but you need to watch things very carefully, using more care than loading FMJ 9mm, for example. Personally, I think batch operation with a single stage (or using the progressive as a single stage press) is the way to go when you are doing "specialty" loading. And that means anything that takes more than usual steps and care.

I gave up on the progressive press some time ago. Just not for me. had more troubles and more bad rounds in the few years I used one than in the decades before I got it. I'm back to the single stage press, and doing things in batches. No, I don't turn out as many rounds as quickly, but I am more confident the round I do make will all be good ones.