Metal Poisoning

Sure Shot Mc Gee · December 13, 2014, 08:15 AM

There's always been a big-to-do about lead fragmentation in big game animals. Since I'm a traditional ball shooter. I see no need to worry about such a problem. Or should I?

On the other hand those who do use bullet or H/Base conical projectiles on big game. Should they be concerned?

What's your preference to use?

stagpanther · December 13, 2014, 08:22 AM

I think the lead issue is mostly a health threat to children with "developing minds." My mind is so far gone it probably isn't going to make much difference. : )

Hawg · December 13, 2014, 09:14 AM

There would be more danger in licking your fingers after handling lead bullets.

teeroux · December 13, 2014, 10:50 AM

I remember handling lead pellets when I was a kid. Used to hold a few spare in my mouth for follow up shots. Unthreading a can was painfully slow. As far as I know there have been no ill effects. This day I reload and cast bullets. A little more cautious due to the amount of potential exposure but lead fragments in a game animal seems an insignificant amount.

bedbugbilly · December 13, 2014, 01:44 PM

When I was a kid - 50 = years ago - we shot rabbits, pheasants and squirrels with shotguns. As careful as we were when cleaning, we still missed pellets but usually found them when eating the cooked game. I've often worried about this and last week, when I as at my Doctor's office for a check up, I asked him about it as it weighs heavy on my mind. That's when I got the bad news from him . . . I only have another 30 or so years to live . . . .

No disrespect intended Shur Shot . . but I always chuckle when I hear folks get worked up about this . . most of them worry about lead but think nothing of cramming fast food down their throats, eating all the prepared foods from the grocery store with all the additives and preservatives in them, eating a high fat diet that will clog their arteries up . . . and the list goes one and yet they get worked up over an element that is naturally found in the earth that they can easily avoid for the most part.

Last year, my wife stopped in to a bar and grill to get a salad for lunch and a ice tea (in AZ). There was a group of fellows that came in the same time that we did - all of them having at least three beers for lunch. I couldn't help overhearing their conversation as they were discussing the quality of water in their area and were concerned about their health and their families' health. Mind you , each had three beers in about 45 minutes - then they got up and left, got in their cars and drove away. Of course that wasn't dangerous to their health . . .

I'm sure that I have eaten my share of pellets when I was a kid (I don't hunt anymore) and I've cast bullets for 50+ years . . and my blood tests show that I am well within normal range. Now I did know a fellow that died from "lead poisoning" . . . but he got caught with his neighbor's wife . . .

Bella · December 13, 2014, 02:13 PM

I have a friend that had a lead pellet shot into his hand when he was ten. He is now 56. The pellet is still there and so is he.

**4V50 Gary** · December 13, 2014, 02:33 PM

Lead. Lead poisoning is worse when it enters the body at 1200 fps plus. May that never happen to any of us.

Beagle333 · December 13, 2014, 04:27 PM

Quote:

I remember handling lead pellets when I was a kid. Used to hold a few spare in my mouth for follow up shots. Unthreading a can was painfully slow.

+1. You don't have time to be digging a can of pellets out of your jeans, in amongst all your other prized possessions that kids carry in their pockets, when you are a kid with something in front of the sights that needs a second or third pellet in it!!!

B.L.E. · December 13, 2014, 04:38 PM

I would definitely wash my hands before eating after handling lead. It's not an acute poison that makes you drop dead like cyanide. Its a cumulative poison that builds up in your body after years of exposure and causes health problems more than mortality.
Also, it depends on the pH of the water just how much lead leaches. Alkali water ignores lead in plumbing but acidic water will form soluble lead salts. A lot of moonshiners got lead poisoning because the acetic acid (vinegar) in their moonshine would form soluble lead acetate when it hit the lead soldering joints in their stills.

Pond, James Pond · December 13, 2014, 05:55 PM

As I understand it, lead is an issue when ingested. Gastric acid reacts with it, it gets absorbed through the GI wall and then you get the detrimental neurological effects. Hence why washing hands after handling lead is important: it is not absorption through the skin, it is risk of ingestion.

Holding a lead pellet teeth, whilst not recommended, is not as as bad as swallowing the pellet and a lead imbedded in the tissue is probably fairly inert.

That is my understanding, but someone may know better.

darkgael · December 13, 2014, 06:13 PM

I have my blood tested a couple of times a year. I had a run in with a high lead count a few years ago. A normal serum blood count for an adult is about 10 micrograms/DL. Below 20 was considered safe for and adult. Mine was over 40. To this day, I do know why it got that high.
I have a friend who had his count up over 70... he became ill... vomiting, etc. He had to undergo a Chleation treatment.
Lead can make you sick... it can affect the heart, it can predipose one to stroke. It affects blood pressure, muscles, nerves, fertility, memory.
It is just not supposed to be there and there are no safe levels. We can only minimize what we have.
Pete

44 Dave · December 13, 2014, 09:37 PM

How many of you city dwellers have lead water service pipes, many city installations up into the early 60's were were with lead water lines.
That is why there are so many "wackos" from Chicago!

Gaucho Gringo · December 13, 2014, 09:50 PM

When I was a kid we used our teeth to clinch lead split shot on our line for fishing. Used to handle lead when fishing and shooting without washing our hands before eating lunch when we were out in the field. When I was older I was around lead in the construction & remodeling business for years. At age 63 I am still here with no problems due to lead exposure.

BirchOrr · December 13, 2014, 10:36 PM

Man dies from led poisoning? Caught with neighbors wife? Lol!!!

Birch

Hellgate · December 13, 2014, 11:32 PM

Don't smoke while casting lead. The NRA did a study years ago on lead exposure from casting and found that those with excessive lead levels were smokers who handled lead where it rubbed off onto the cigarettes and they subsequently smoked the cigs and adsorbed the lead that way. So, washing before eating is strongly advised.

johnwilliamson062 · December 13, 2014, 11:38 PM

Pure lead outide the body isn't much of an issue. Lead is extremely stable. You need a reactive chemical, such as gastric acids, in order to make it dangerous. Lead became an issue because industry started putting it in products with other chemicals. Gasoline, paint, etc.
Lead pipes are mostly 75+ years old. If they were losing any significant amount of material they would have been long gone.
There was an informal survey here several years ago where several people participating in different shooting activities were tested. Reloading, casting, shooting, etc. Although very limited in scope and not all that scientific, the only pattern that developed was those shooting indoor had "dangerous" levels. It was suggested that lead is used in most primers in combination with the exact type of volatile chemicals that would make it dangerous.
I too am past my brains "developmental stage." I have been working with pure lead rotor weights at work recently. I am not at all worried about it. I just make sure I wash up well before breaks, and try to keep from disturbing dust. It isn't like pure lead floats for long. Use PPE of course.

IMO, don't shoot indoors and avoid ingesting it with regularity. I imagine you would have to survive off of small game harvested with shot for an extended period of time in order for ingestion to be a problem.

Magnum Wheel Man · December 15, 2014, 11:39 AM

my understanding is the lead oxide is most dangerous... as mentioned, lead pipes, & lead solder have been used for many decades... I never put lead shot in my mouth as a kid, but those split shot sinkers were designed to bite them open & closed weren't they ???

anyway... the lead poisoning that killed the deer, is the most likely way to kill someone with a bullet...

if you wanted to chase this further... the alloys used in bullet casting, both dilute the percentage of lead, & likely make it more stabile

if you are worried, just don't use fuzzy white balls

maillemaker · December 15, 2014, 11:42 AM

I've started having my lead levels checked as part of my annual blood work since I started casting for BP shooting.

I have not had an issue yet. But I don't smoke, and I always wash my hands after handling lead, and I always ventilate the work area while casting.

Steve

**4V50 Gary** · December 15, 2014, 12:57 PM

Hellgate is right. Wash your hands (and face) before you eat and drink after casting lead. I prefer to change my clothes and shoes. Rinse off the bottom of the shoes and take the clothes to a coin operated laundrymat for cleaning (beats cleaning it in your own machine where you can expose the kiddies).

swathdiver · December 15, 2014, 04:16 PM

I don't worry about lead poisoning while casting and eating my lunch at the same time. When the Lord decides to take me home, none of these things are going to make a difference.

Think of the folks alive from the 1500s through the 1800s who largely subsisted on meat that they shot FOR THEIR ENTIRE LIVES. Lead poisoning is as ludicrous as being poisoned by cooking food over a fire as some fools tried to proclaim about ten years ago. Since the flood, man has been cooking his meat over a fire!

We had a wonderful weekend shooting our cap and ball pistols with friends and family. It was especially fun teaching youngsters how to do it and watching those faces of apprehension turn into ear to ear grins as the smoke cleared from their first shot!

wogpotter · December 15, 2014, 04:26 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't lead as such non poisonous. I remember hearing lead Oxide was toxic, but lead was incapable of absorption in the body?

robhof · December 15, 2014, 06:31 PM

Had a friend years ago that casted sinkers commercially to sell at flea markets, he ended up with toxic lead levels. I casted bullets at the time and was worried til I watched him cast, he was eating a sandwich and would put it down on the table with the casting residue and he also handled the sinkers and raw lead quite a bit. I told him of his mistakes, but it took a blood test to convince him. I also got tested and came back normal, and have been casting on and off for 50 years and am still normal, simple common sense precautions are all that is needed!

December 13, 2014, 08:15 AM	#1
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Metal Poisoning There's always been a big-to-do about lead fragmentation in big game animals. Since I'm a traditional ball shooter. I see no need to worry about such a problem. Or should I? On the other hand those who do use bullet or H/Base conical projectiles on big game. Should they be concerned? What's your preference to use?

December 13, 2014, 01:44 PM	#5
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	When I was a kid - 50 = years ago - we shot rabbits, pheasants and squirrels with shotguns. As careful as we were when cleaning, we still missed pellets but usually found them when eating the cooked game. I've often worried about this and last week, when I as at my Doctor's office for a check up, I asked him about it as it weighs heavy on my mind. That's when I got the bad news from him . . . I only have another 30 or so years to live . . . . No disrespect intended Shur Shot . . but I always chuckle when I hear folks get worked up about this . . most of them worry about lead but think nothing of cramming fast food down their throats, eating all the prepared foods from the grocery store with all the additives and preservatives in them, eating a high fat diet that will clog their arteries up . . . and the list goes one and yet they get worked up over an element that is naturally found in the earth that they can easily avoid for the most part. Last year, my wife stopped in to a bar and grill to get a salad for lunch and a ice tea (in AZ). There was a group of fellows that came in the same time that we did - all of them having at least three beers for lunch. I couldn't help overhearing their conversation as they were discussing the quality of water in their area and were concerned about their health and their families' health. Mind you , each had three beers in about 45 minutes - then they got up and left, got in their cars and drove away. Of course that wasn't dangerous to their health . . . I'm sure that I have eaten my share of pellets when I was a kid (I don't hunt anymore) and I've cast bullets for 50+ years . . and my blood tests show that I am well within normal range. Now I did know a fellow that died from "lead poisoning" . . . but he got caught with his neighbor's wife . . . __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

December 13, 2014, 02:33 PM	#7
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,833	Lead. Lead poisoning is worse when it enters the body at 1200 fps plus. May that never happen to any of us. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

December 13, 2014, 04:38 PM	#9
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	I would definitely wash my hands before eating after handling lead. It's not an acute poison that makes you drop dead like cyanide. Its a cumulative poison that builds up in your body after years of exposure and causes health problems more than mortality. Also, it depends on the pH of the water just how much lead leaches. Alkali water ignores lead in plumbing but acidic water will form soluble lead salts. A lot of moonshiners got lead poisoning because the acetic acid (vinegar) in their moonshine would form soluble lead acetate when it hit the lead soldering joints in their stills. __________________ Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."

December 13, 2014, 05:55 PM	#10
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	As I understand it, lead is an issue when ingested. Gastric acid reacts with it, it gets absorbed through the GI wall and then you get the detrimental neurological effects. Hence why washing hands after handling lead is important: it is not absorption through the skin, it is risk of ingestion. Holding a lead pellet teeth, whilst not recommended, is not as as bad as swallowing the pellet and a lead imbedded in the tissue is probably fairly inert. That is my understanding, but someone may know better. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

December 13, 2014, 08:22 AM	#2
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,783	I think the lead issue is mostly a health threat to children with "developing minds." My mind is so far gone it probably isn't going to make much difference. : )

December 13, 2014, 09:14 AM	#3
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	There would be more danger in licking your fingers after handling lead bullets.

December 13, 2014, 10:50 AM	#4
teeroux Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Posts: 1,512	I remember handling lead pellets when I was a kid. Used to hold a few spare in my mouth for follow up shots. Unthreading a can was painfully slow. As far as I know there have been no ill effects. This day I reload and cast bullets. A little more cautious due to the amount of potential exposure but lead fragments in a game animal seems an insignificant amount.

December 13, 2014, 02:13 PM	#6
Bella Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Posts: 341	I have a friend that had a lead pellet shot into his hand when he was ten. He is now 56. The pellet is still there and so is he.

December 13, 2014, 06:13 PM	#11
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	lead I have my blood tested a couple of times a year. I had a run in with a high lead count a few years ago. A normal serum blood count for an adult is about 10 micrograms/DL. Below 20 was considered safe for and adult. Mine was over 40. To this day, I do know why it got that high. I have a friend who had his count up over 70... he became ill... vomiting, etc. He had to undergo a Chleation treatment. Lead can make you sick... it can affect the heart, it can predipose one to stroke. It affects blood pressure, muscles, nerves, fertility, memory. It is just not supposed to be there and there are no safe levels. We can only minimize what we have. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

December 13, 2014, 09:37 PM	#12
44 Dave Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2013 Posts: 584	How many of you city dwellers have lead water service pipes, many city installations up into the early 60's were were with lead water lines. That is why there are so many "wackos" from Chicago!

December 13, 2014, 09:50 PM	#13
Gaucho Gringo Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2007 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 366	When I was a kid we used our teeth to clinch lead split shot on our line for fishing. Used to handle lead when fishing and shooting without washing our hands before eating lunch when we were out in the field. When I was older I was around lead in the construction & remodeling business for years. At age 63 I am still here with no problems due to lead exposure. __________________ 357 Taurus Gaucho, 22 Heritage RR, 2-Pietta 1858 44 NMA Remingtons, Pietta, Euroarms & ASM 36 1851 Navies, 31 Uberti 1849, 12 ga H&R Topper, 16 Ga Western Field, 43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block, 44 ASM Colt Walker, High Point C9 9mm, Winchester 1906 22, Rossi 62 22 rifle, Uberti 1860, H&A & IJ 32 S&W BreakTop, 36 Euroarms 1858, 32 H&R 04, 22mag NAA SS BP revolver, .44 Rodgers & Spencer, IJ 38 S&W BreakTop, IJ 22 Sealed 8

December 13, 2014, 10:36 PM	#14
BirchOrr Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2012 Location: Eaton Rapids, MI Posts: 445	BBB Man dies from led poisoning? Caught with neighbors wife? Lol!!! Birch __________________ Black Powder: Not because it is easy, but because it is hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win...

December 13, 2014, 11:32 PM	#15
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	Don't smoke while casting lead. The NRA did a study years ago on lead exposure from casting and found that those with excessive lead levels were smokers who handled lead where it rubbed off onto the cigarettes and they subsequently smoked the cigs and adsorbed the lead that way. So, washing before eating is strongly advised. __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

December 13, 2014, 11:38 PM	#16
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	Pure lead outide the body isn't much of an issue. Lead is extremely stable. You need a reactive chemical, such as gastric acids, in order to make it dangerous. Lead became an issue because industry started putting it in products with other chemicals. Gasoline, paint, etc. Lead pipes are mostly 75+ years old. If they were losing any significant amount of material they would have been long gone. There was an informal survey here several years ago where several people participating in different shooting activities were tested. Reloading, casting, shooting, etc. Although very limited in scope and not all that scientific, the only pattern that developed was those shooting indoor had "dangerous" levels. It was suggested that lead is used in most primers in combination with the exact type of volatile chemicals that would make it dangerous. I too am past my brains "developmental stage." I have been working with pure lead rotor weights at work recently. I am not at all worried about it. I just make sure I wash up well before breaks, and try to keep from disturbing dust. It isn't like pure lead floats for long. Use PPE of course. IMO, don't shoot indoors and avoid ingesting it with regularity. I imagine you would have to survive off of small game harvested with shot for an extended period of time in order for ingestion to be a problem.

December 15, 2014, 11:39 AM	#17
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	my understanding is the lead oxide is most dangerous... as mentioned, lead pipes, & lead solder have been used for many decades... I never put lead shot in my mouth as a kid, but those split shot sinkers were designed to bite them open & closed weren't they ??? anyway... the lead poisoning that killed the deer, is the most likely way to kill someone with a bullet... if you wanted to chase this further... the alloys used in bullet casting, both dilute the percentage of lead, & likely make it more stabile if you are worried, just don't use fuzzy white balls __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

December 15, 2014, 11:42 AM	#18
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I've started having my lead levels checked as part of my annual blood work since I started casting for BP shooting. I have not had an issue yet. But I don't smoke, and I always wash my hands after handling lead, and I always ventilate the work area while casting. Steve

December 15, 2014, 12:57 PM	#19
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,833	Hellgate is right. Wash your hands (and face) before you eat and drink after casting lead. I prefer to change my clothes and shoes. Rinse off the bottom of the shoes and take the clothes to a coin operated laundrymat for cleaning (beats cleaning it in your own machine where you can expose the kiddies). __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

December 15, 2014, 04:16 PM	#20
swathdiver Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2012 Location: Treasure Coast, Florida Posts: 335	I don't worry about lead poisoning while casting and eating my lunch at the same time. When the Lord decides to take me home, none of these things are going to make a difference. Think of the folks alive from the 1500s through the 1800s who largely subsisted on meat that they shot FOR THEIR ENTIRE LIVES. Lead poisoning is as ludicrous as being poisoned by cooking food over a fire as some fools tried to proclaim about ten years ago. Since the flood, man has been cooking his meat over a fire! We had a wonderful weekend shooting our cap and ball pistols with friends and family. It was especially fun teaching youngsters how to do it and watching those faces of apprehension turn into ear to ear grins as the smoke cleared from their first shot! __________________ “Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.” - Job 38:3

December 15, 2014, 04:26 PM	#21
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't lead as such non poisonous. I remember hearing lead Oxide was toxic, but lead was incapable of absorption in the body? __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

December 15, 2014, 06:31 PM	#22
robhof Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2007 Posts: 712	robhof Had a friend years ago that casted sinkers commercially to sell at flea markets, he ended up with toxic lead levels. I casted bullets at the time and was worried til I watched him cast, he was eating a sandwich and would put it down on the table with the casting residue and he also handled the sinkers and raw lead quite a bit. I told him of his mistakes, but it took a blood test to convince him. I also got tested and came back normal, and have been casting on and off for 50 years and am still normal, simple common sense precautions are all that is needed!