Poor neck tension

martin1833 · March 3, 2013, 03:14 PM

I've been reloading for handgun a couple years and haven't run into this before. I just began handloading/reloading 44 mag. The Winchester brass I used for handloading rounds from scratch works great. I've already reloaded it a few times and it's problem-free.

I bought some Rem UMC ammo. The factory rounds' neck tension is fine, but when I reload it, the tension isn't good at all. Even after crimping I can push the bullets into the case. These same bullets work fine with my Winchester brass.

Is the Rem UMC brass I have just weak, or is there anything else that might be going on?

oldpapps · March 3, 2013, 04:35 PM

Lets work through this.

Clean and inspect some brass. Look for any splits in the neck. OK, didn't expect any. Steel sizing DIE, lube well and size. Carbide sizing DIE, lube very lightly and size. OK, now check how BIG or tight the case mouth is, turn a bullet nose down and stick it into a case. Can you easily push it in? If you can, your sizing DIE is not doing what it is designed to do.

As I don't know the DIE set you are using.. At some place the case mouth is 'belled'. Only a sight 'bell' is needed and wanted. Back 'it' out till that is all you get.

Load one round, primer, powder and bullet. STOP! Don't do anything more than seat the bullet and at this point it doesn't have to be fully seated. Can you push the bullet into the case? If so, look at each step. If not, continue.

The 'CRIMP'. Load a suitable number of round with NO crimp. Take them to shoot and try them. Fire these rounds. Check for bullets moving forward between shots. If none moved, this loading doesn't need to be crimped. Very, very few loading need to be crimped. (Note, some powders do better with a harder pull. But lets get past one hurdle at a time.)
As there are no absolutes, the words 'always' or 'never', just don't work. The best I can use is seldom crimp a bullet that does not have a crimp groove (canalure) or crimping band (lead bullets).

I VERY seldom use any crimp on anything.

20 to 25 years ago, Winchester had a few runs with brass that was brittle and would crack. I only got one loading out of this brass. No other .44 mag brass has ever given me any problems, including lots of other Winchester head stamped brass.

Hope this helps.

Load with care,

OSOK

F. Guffey · March 3, 2013, 04:44 PM

44 Remington Mag., When I crimp the 44 Rem Mag case there is no way the bullet is going to move after crimping. I do not mix cases, I adjust my dies every time I use them, meaning a different length case will effect the effectiveness of the crimp.

I do not have new UMC-Remington cases. I have Federal, Winchester, R-P and TEXAN.

F. Guffey

drail · March 3, 2013, 11:22 PM

Measure the plug in your expander die. Measure your bullet diameter. If the plug is not 3 or 4 thous. smaller than the bullet dia. the case will be overexpanded for THAT bullet. You can turn down the plug in a drill to the size you need if it is too big (many are) Remington brass is thinner than most brands and do not have good neck tension after they have been worked a few times. If you seat a bullet in a case (without crimping) you should not be able to push it any deeper by hand no matter how hard you push. Crimp actually has less effect on holding the bullet in place than most people believe (unless you are crimping into a deep cannelure). Overcrimping to try to solve bullet pull or setback will actually make it worse. You must have good neck tension first. I load almost nothing but cast bullets the have no crimping groove but the neck tension holds the bullet in place even with little or no crimp. When people give me Remington brass I just give them to someone I don't like.

dickttx · March 4, 2013, 07:57 AM

Quote Oldpapps:
"Carbide sizing DIE, lube very lightly and size. OK, now check how BIG or tight the case mouth is, turn a bullet nose down and stick it into a case. Can you easily push it in? If you can, your sizing DIE is not doing what it is designed to do."

This^^. If your case will not retain the bullet straight from the sizing die there is nothing you can do to make that bullet work in that case with that die.

Nathan · March 4, 2013, 08:11 AM

What is your id(measure three times and average) after sizing? Check both brass.

Also, just for confirmation, what is your neck thickness(measure 3 times and average)?

martin1833 · March 4, 2013, 10:37 AM

drail said:

When people give me Remington brass I just give them to someone I don't like.

I'm with you on that one!

I'll try all the suggestions. Thanks, all! I'm afraid that at this point, since the Winchester brass is holding the bullets and the Rem is not, that I won't be able to use the brass from my spendy Rem 44 mag ammo.

eldermike · March 4, 2013, 10:47 AM

Over expanding is the problem. It's a typical issue with 44 mag. Tension is more important than crimping, crimping is something you add to tension, you don't get tension by crimping.

drail · March 4, 2013, 02:54 PM

Well spoken.

Sevens · March 4, 2013, 03:49 PM

Dies out of spec could be the problem.
Over-flaring could be the problem.
Bullets that are on the slim side is often a problem. (guarenteed with Nosler handgun slugs)

However... in loading 17 different handgun chamberings over the last bunch of years and having been handling and using R-P handgun brass for a very long time, I'm absolutely 100% positive and will argue to the end that R-P brass is amongst the absolute thinnest in the industry.

I'm not saying it's the worst brass out there. I'm not saying it doesn't last long or can't be loaded. I am saying that there are certain places where I avoid it like the plague and that I'm proof-positive that in some places with some bullets, R-P brass is incompatible.

If you lay out a bunch of different head stamps and you offer them to me to buy or swap for, R-P is in an exclusive group of stuff that I will avoid, turn down, skip past or flat-out refuse in certain calibers.

In other calibers, I do use it and I can still feel the difference in my press handle when seating bullets. In some chamberings, I won't use the stuff.

If you are asking if you have some MAJOR problem on your hands because your handloads feel "right" in Win brass, but feel "WRONG" in R-P brass, it's my experienced opinion that you have NOTHING to worry about. R-P handgun brass isn't as good as most others.

Strafer Gott · March 4, 2013, 04:58 PM

If you bell the casemouth, don't apply more than is absolutely necessary. I adjust the belling die to just touch the case mouth, then try the bullet until it just starts. Much grief may be avoided with a few tips.

jersurf101 · March 4, 2013, 05:10 PM

I agree that Remmington or R-P brass has thin case mouths/walls and you can get into bad lots with poor neck tension. I have also experienced this with PMC .357 magnum cases.

joneb · March 4, 2013, 09:05 PM

I have the same trouble with R-P brass, and the more you load it the worse it gets. I use R-P brass with cast bullets that are sized .001" over.
You could get another expander plug and turn it down so it flares only.
You could try seat and crimping in separate steps.
I trim my brass to allow for a consistent heavy crimp.

Quote:

Bullets that are on the slim side is often a problem. (guarenteed with Nosler handgun slugs)

I need to talk with Nosler most of their handgun bullets are sized .0005 under

Hornady .44 cal. are sized at .430"

March 3, 2013, 03:14 PM	#1
martin1833 Junior Member Join Date: February 16, 2013 Posts: 3	Poor neck tension I've been reloading for handgun a couple years and haven't run into this before. I just began handloading/reloading 44 mag. The Winchester brass I used for handloading rounds from scratch works great. I've already reloaded it a few times and it's problem-free. I bought some Rem UMC ammo. The factory rounds' neck tension is fine, but when I reload it, the tension isn't good at all. Even after crimping I can push the bullets into the case. These same bullets work fine with my Winchester brass. Is the Rem UMC brass I have just weak, or is there anything else that might be going on?

March 3, 2013, 11:22 PM	#4
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	Measure the plug in your expander die. Measure your bullet diameter. If the plug is not 3 or 4 thous. smaller than the bullet dia. the case will be overexpanded for THAT bullet. You can turn down the plug in a drill to the size you need if it is too big (many are) Remington brass is thinner than most brands and do not have good neck tension after they have been worked a few times. If you seat a bullet in a case (without crimping) you should not be able to push it any deeper by hand no matter how hard you push. Crimp actually has less effect on holding the bullet in place than most people believe (unless you are crimping into a deep cannelure). Overcrimping to try to solve bullet pull or setback will actually make it worse. You must have good neck tension first. I load almost nothing but cast bullets the have no crimping groove but the neck tension holds the bullet in place even with little or no crimp. When people give me Remington brass I just give them to someone I don't like. Last edited by drail; March 3, 2013 at 11:28 PM.

March 4, 2013, 07:57 AM	#5
dickttx Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2011 Location: Fort Worth Posts: 500	Quote Oldpapps: "Carbide sizing DIE, lube very lightly and size. OK, now check how BIG or tight the case mouth is, turn a bullet nose down and stick it into a case. Can you easily push it in? If you can, your sizing DIE is not doing what it is designed to do." This^^. If your case will not retain the bullet straight from the sizing die there is nothing you can do to make that bullet work in that case with that die. __________________ Education teaches you the rules, experience teaches you the exceptions (Plagiarized from Claude Clay)

March 4, 2013, 03:49 PM	#10
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Dies out of spec could be the problem. Over-flaring could be the problem. Bullets that are on the slim side is often a problem. (guarenteed with Nosler handgun slugs) However... in loading 17 different handgun chamberings over the last bunch of years and having been handling and using R-P handgun brass for a very long time, I'm absolutely 100% positive and will argue to the end that R-P brass is amongst the absolute thinnest in the industry. I'm not saying it's the worst brass out there. I'm not saying it doesn't last long or can't be loaded. I am saying that there are certain places where I avoid it like the plague and that I'm proof-positive that in some places with some bullets, R-P brass is incompatible. If you lay out a bunch of different head stamps and you offer them to me to buy or swap for, R-P is in an exclusive group of stuff that I will avoid, turn down, skip past or flat-out refuse in certain calibers. In other calibers, I do use it and I can still feel the difference in my press handle when seating bullets. In some chamberings, I won't use the stuff. If you are asking if you have some MAJOR problem on your hands because your handloads feel "right" in Win brass, but feel "WRONG" in R-P brass, it's my experienced opinion that you have NOTHING to worry about. R-P handgun brass isn't as good as most others. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

March 3, 2013, 04:35 PM	#2
oldpapps Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2011 Location: Middle America Posts: 518	Lets work through this. Clean and inspect some brass. Look for any splits in the neck. OK, didn't expect any. Steel sizing DIE, lube well and size. Carbide sizing DIE, lube very lightly and size. OK, now check how BIG or tight the case mouth is, turn a bullet nose down and stick it into a case. Can you easily push it in? If you can, your sizing DIE is not doing what it is designed to do. As I don't know the DIE set you are using.. At some place the case mouth is 'belled'. Only a sight 'bell' is needed and wanted. Back 'it' out till that is all you get. Load one round, primer, powder and bullet. STOP! Don't do anything more than seat the bullet and at this point it doesn't have to be fully seated. Can you push the bullet into the case? If so, look at each step. If not, continue. The 'CRIMP'. Load a suitable number of round with NO crimp. Take them to shoot and try them. Fire these rounds. Check for bullets moving forward between shots. If none moved, this loading doesn't need to be crimped. Very, very few loading need to be crimped. (Note, some powders do better with a harder pull. But lets get past one hurdle at a time.) As there are no absolutes, the words 'always' or 'never', just don't work. The best I can use is seldom crimp a bullet that does not have a crimp groove (canalure) or crimping band (lead bullets). I VERY seldom use any crimp on anything. 20 to 25 years ago, Winchester had a few runs with brass that was brittle and would crack. I only got one loading out of this brass. No other .44 mag brass has ever given me any problems, including lots of other Winchester head stamped brass. Hope this helps. Load with care, OSOK

March 3, 2013, 04:44 PM	#3
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	44 Remington Mag., When I crimp the 44 Rem Mag case there is no way the bullet is going to move after crimping. I do not mix cases, I adjust my dies every time I use them, meaning a different length case will effect the effectiveness of the crimp. I do not have new UMC-Remington cases. I have Federal, Winchester, R-P and TEXAN. F. Guffey

March 4, 2013, 08:11 AM	#6
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	What is your id(measure three times and average) after sizing? Check both brass. Also, just for confirmation, what is your neck thickness(measure 3 times and average)?

March 4, 2013, 10:37 AM	#7
martin1833 Junior Member Join Date: February 16, 2013 Posts: 3	drail said: When people give me Remington brass I just give them to someone I don't like. I'm with you on that one! I'll try all the suggestions. Thanks, all! I'm afraid that at this point, since the Winchester brass is holding the bullets and the Rem is not, that I won't be able to use the brass from my spendy Rem 44 mag ammo.

March 4, 2013, 10:47 AM	#8
eldermike Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2013 Location: NC Posts: 545	Over expanding is the problem. It's a typical issue with 44 mag. Tension is more important than crimping, crimping is something you add to tension, you don't get tension by crimping.

March 4, 2013, 02:54 PM	#9
drail Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2008 Posts: 3,150	Well spoken.

March 4, 2013, 04:58 PM	#11
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,315	If you bell the casemouth, don't apply more than is absolutely necessary. I adjust the belling die to just touch the case mouth, then try the bullet until it just starts. Much grief may be avoided with a few tips.

March 4, 2013, 05:10 PM	#12
jersurf101 Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2013 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 553	I agree that Remmington or R-P brass has thin case mouths/walls and you can get into bad lots with poor neck tension. I have also experienced this with PMC .357 magnum cases.