Target shooting H 4895 VS IMR 4895

cw308 · January 13, 2013, 11:44 AM

Thinking or trying another powder for targetshooting . Rifle is a Rem.700 LTR 308 Cal. 20" brl. 1-12 twist. Using a 168 Gr. Sierra HPBT bullet. Both powers are close. I don't like hot loads,I use IMR 4064 42.0 Gr. works great & will almost fill the case, I don't like a powder that leaves alot of empty room in the caseing. What do you think of these two powders.

hodaka · January 13, 2013, 11:46 AM

Both work fine in a .308 but I doubt that either will do better than 4064.

Colorado308shooter · January 13, 2013, 01:38 PM

I run IMR-4895 with 168's in my Remmy 700 SPS.....I really like this powder. Thank god I had 9lbs on hand, before the shortage hit.

I run H-4895 in .223 and its awesome for that caliber.

For .308.....I'd go with IMR-4895.

cw308 · January 13, 2013, 03:08 PM

Colorado - What is your twist rate and Brl. lenth on your 308 & 223

Colorado308shooter · January 13, 2013, 06:28 PM

CW, my Remmy 700 is an SPS Tactical, 20" barrel.....1:12 twist.

My .223 is a Mini-14 with an 18.5" barrel......1:9 twist.

Bart B. · January 13, 2013, 06:38 PM

When the .308 Win. was "the" round for NRA high power matches for rapid fire at 200 and 300 yards and slow fire at 200 yards, 41 grains of IMR4064 had a good track record of winning matches and setting records. IMR4064 has less velocity change per 1/10th grain of charge weight than either IMR4895 or H4895. Folks just metered charges, never weighed them, and test groups from good rifles with good barrels were about an inch at 300 yards.

44 grains of IMR4064 loaded in Federal Gold Medal .308 Match under Sierra 168's (a max load) was also popular with M14 and M1 competitors on service rifle teams. The USMC and US Army handloaded a lot of Federal cases with that load for their semiautos. This same load seemed to do so well across all sorts of barrel makes as well as 1:10, 1:11 and 1:12 twist barrels from 22 to 26 inches in both bolt guns and semiautos. A close second place load that was pretty much a standard was 42 grains of IMR4895 under a 168 in those cases; it shot well in everything well built with a good barrel.

cw308 · January 14, 2013, 09:25 AM

Bart B - I'm getting 1" groups at 200 yards, it's a stock barrel & still have some life left in it. When my groups start to open up I will have a new barrel installed & have it trued up. I was using 41.5 grains IMR 4064 Vel. 2485 but the older benchrest guy's were telling me to speed it up alittle, Did I say older, I'm 66. Anyway I did, 42.0 & 41.5 seems to shoot the same at 200 yds. which is Max. at the ranges here. Doesn't the empty space in the casing effect accuracy, I would always like to shoot a lighter load as long as it's accurate. Only target shooting, Chris

Bart B. · January 14, 2013, 10:14 AM

Chris, yes, too much empty space in the case can hurt accuracy. But if your worst groups are no bigger than 1.5" at 200, stick with that load.

Note that rifles and ammo have no idea how old their users are. Don't tell them your age and they'll all do just fine for you.

edward5759 · January 14, 2013, 01:36 PM

IMR-4064 is the most constant powder through the years.
Bart B is right, Hi bart

, I still use it in my 308 M1 Grand Rifle and M14.
I had a crowning tool for my M-14 and M1s that I would use after my groups would start to open up.
You can get it at brownells it may work for you.

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...r-prod628.aspx

Here is the pilot

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod41628.aspx

If you do use it send me a PM and I will give a couple of tips on using it.

Edward5759

Slamfire · January 14, 2013, 05:03 PM

I shot 27 lbs of AA2495 and at least as much IMR 4895 with 168's through my across the course 308 rifles.

I have bud's who swear by IMR 4064 but I don't like weighing charges. The 4895 series of powders, which includes H4895, throws much better and my short range (out to 300 yards) loads are thrown.

Recently I tried H4895 with 175's and it hammers at 600 yards.

I think H4895 is an improvement over IMR 4895 as it is one of those "extreme' powders.

I tried AA4064, a short grained 4064, I did not get as much velocity as IMR 4064, but it shot very well out to 600 yards.

I have a feeling that Varget may be the best overall 308 powder but it will take a while before I can prove that to myself.

4runnerman · January 14, 2013, 05:14 PM

I shoot only RL-15 in my 308. Has worked the best so far. Little dirty but rifle gets cleand so no big deal

Bart B. · January 14, 2013, 08:18 PM

Slamfire has bud's who swear by IMR 4064 but he doesn't like weighing charges. That's almost the same story that one of the arsenals found out decades ago.

Weighed charges of IMR4064 shot the 172-gr. match bullet from the .30-06 more accurate than weighed ones of IMR4895. But with metered charges, IMR4064's weight spread was almost 2/10ths more than IMR4895 and it wasn't as accurate in their 600-yard tests. They stuck with IMR4895 in their high speed loading machines using metered charges.

Folks testing .308 Win. ammo from machine rested rifles got better accuracy with weighed charges of IMR4064, but a lot of them metered it for short range use as the difference from IMR4895 metered charges was nil. Sierra Bullets uses metered charges of IMR4064 testing their 168's, 175's and 180's. But the most accurate arsenal match ammo for the 7.62 NATO round's been with IMR4895.

cw308 · January 15, 2013, 09:46 AM

Thank's everyone, I think I will stick with IMR 4064 & weigh every round, using single stage rockchucker. Quick question, how often do you change the firingpin spring.

Bart B. · January 15, 2013, 10:53 AM

Firing pin springs typically weaken over time. Doesn't matter whether the rifle's cocked or not; the difference in spring load in pounds is small. The first indication a rifle spring's weak is too much vertical shot stringing at long range and a give range's zero has move up a bit on the sight. Weak firing pin springs cause inconsistant primer output.

I suggest replacing rifle firing pin springs every 3 years or so.

Most rifle ammunition performs better if one uses a 10% stronger spring. Wolff sells good ones.

cw308 · January 15, 2013, 02:29 PM

Thanks for the info Bart. Have the rifle 8 years, plus dry fire alot, so I guess its time . Thanks again Chris

bfoosh006 · January 15, 2013, 03:35 PM

While an OEM spring works well.... I have taken a liking to these springs...http://www.davidtubb.com/Rem_700_Short_CS_Spring

One less thing to wonder about..... when did I last change that spring ?

And they do offer these , if you are interested..http://www.davidtubb.com/speedlock-rem-700-short-action

I've never used that though.

cw308 · January 16, 2013, 02:54 PM

bfoosh006 - thanks for the info, Just ordered the same spring from Brownells. Thanks again Chris

January 13, 2013, 11:44 AM	#1
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Target shooting H 4895 VS IMR 4895 Thinking or trying another powder for targetshooting . Rifle is a Rem.700 LTR 308 Cal. 20" brl. 1-12 twist. Using a 168 Gr. Sierra HPBT bullet. Both powers are close. I don't like hot loads,I use IMR 4064 42.0 Gr. works great & will almost fill the case, I don't like a powder that leaves alot of empty room in the caseing. What do you think of these two powders.

January 13, 2013, 06:38 PM	#6
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	When the .308 Win. was "the" round for NRA high power matches for rapid fire at 200 and 300 yards and slow fire at 200 yards, 41 grains of IMR4064 had a good track record of winning matches and setting records. IMR4064 has less velocity change per 1/10th grain of charge weight than either IMR4895 or H4895. Folks just metered charges, never weighed them, and test groups from good rifles with good barrels were about an inch at 300 yards. 44 grains of IMR4064 loaded in Federal Gold Medal .308 Match under Sierra 168's (a max load) was also popular with M14 and M1 competitors on service rifle teams. The USMC and US Army handloaded a lot of Federal cases with that load for their semiautos. This same load seemed to do so well across all sorts of barrel makes as well as 1:10, 1:11 and 1:12 twist barrels from 22 to 26 inches in both bolt guns and semiautos. A close second place load that was pretty much a standard was 42 grains of IMR4895 under a 168 in those cases; it shot well in everything well built with a good barrel. Last edited by Bart B.; January 13, 2013 at 06:44 PM.

January 14, 2013, 01:36 PM	#9
edward5759 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ. 30 miles from water, two feet from Hell. Posts: 355	IMR-4064 is the most constant powder through the years. Bart B is right, Hi bart, I still use it in my 308 M1 Grand Rifle and M14. I had a crowning tool for my M-14 and M1s that I would use after my groups would start to open up. You can get it at brownells it may work for you. http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...r-prod628.aspx Here is the pilot http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod41628.aspx If you do use it send me a PM and I will give a couple of tips on using it. Edward5759 __________________ Failure is part of success! This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!" -Adolf Hitler,1935"

January 14, 2013, 05:03 PM	#10
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	I shot 27 lbs of AA2495 and at least as much IMR 4895 with 168's through my across the course 308 rifles. I have bud's who swear by IMR 4064 but I don't like weighing charges. The 4895 series of powders, which includes H4895, throws much better and my short range (out to 300 yards) loads are thrown. Recently I tried H4895 with 175's and it hammers at 600 yards. I think H4895 is an improvement over IMR 4895 as it is one of those "extreme' powders. I tried AA4064, a short grained 4064, I did not get as much velocity as IMR 4064, but it shot very well out to 600 yards. I have a feeling that Varget may be the best overall 308 powder but it will take a while before I can prove that to myself. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

January 14, 2013, 05:14 PM	#11
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	I shoot only RL-15 in my 308. Has worked the best so far. Little dirty but rifle gets cleand so no big deal __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

January 13, 2013, 11:46 AM	#2
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	Both work fine in a .308 but I doubt that either will do better than 4064.

January 13, 2013, 01:38 PM	#3
Colorado308shooter Member Join Date: November 11, 2012 Posts: 72	I run IMR-4895 with 168's in my Remmy 700 SPS.....I really like this powder. Thank god I had 9lbs on hand, before the shortage hit. I run H-4895 in .223 and its awesome for that caliber. For .308.....I'd go with IMR-4895.

January 13, 2013, 03:08 PM	#4
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Colorado - What is your twist rate and Brl. lenth on your 308 & 223

January 13, 2013, 06:28 PM	#5
Colorado308shooter Member Join Date: November 11, 2012 Posts: 72	CW, my Remmy 700 is an SPS Tactical, 20" barrel.....1:12 twist. My .223 is a Mini-14 with an 18.5" barrel......1:9 twist.

January 14, 2013, 09:25 AM	#7
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Bart B - I'm getting 1" groups at 200 yards, it's a stock barrel & still have some life left in it. When my groups start to open up I will have a new barrel installed & have it trued up. I was using 41.5 grains IMR 4064 Vel. 2485 but the older benchrest guy's were telling me to speed it up alittle, Did I say older, I'm 66. Anyway I did, 42.0 & 41.5 seems to shoot the same at 200 yds. which is Max. at the ranges here. Doesn't the empty space in the casing effect accuracy, I would always like to shoot a lighter load as long as it's accurate. Only target shooting, Chris

January 14, 2013, 10:14 AM	#8
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Chris, yes, too much empty space in the case can hurt accuracy. But if your worst groups are no bigger than 1.5" at 200, stick with that load. Note that rifles and ammo have no idea how old their users are. Don't tell them your age and they'll all do just fine for you.

January 14, 2013, 08:18 PM	#12
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Slamfire has bud's who swear by IMR 4064 but he doesn't like weighing charges. That's almost the same story that one of the arsenals found out decades ago. Weighed charges of IMR4064 shot the 172-gr. match bullet from the .30-06 more accurate than weighed ones of IMR4895. But with metered charges, IMR4064's weight spread was almost 2/10ths more than IMR4895 and it wasn't as accurate in their 600-yard tests. They stuck with IMR4895 in their high speed loading machines using metered charges. Folks testing .308 Win. ammo from machine rested rifles got better accuracy with weighed charges of IMR4064, but a lot of them metered it for short range use as the difference from IMR4895 metered charges was nil. Sierra Bullets uses metered charges of IMR4064 testing their 168's, 175's and 180's. But the most accurate arsenal match ammo for the 7.62 NATO round's been with IMR4895.

January 15, 2013, 09:46 AM	#13
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Thank's everyone, I think I will stick with IMR 4064 & weigh every round, using single stage rockchucker. Quick question, how often do you change the firingpin spring.

January 15, 2013, 10:53 AM	#14
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Firing pin springs typically weaken over time. Doesn't matter whether the rifle's cocked or not; the difference in spring load in pounds is small. The first indication a rifle spring's weak is too much vertical shot stringing at long range and a give range's zero has move up a bit on the sight. Weak firing pin springs cause inconsistant primer output. I suggest replacing rifle firing pin springs every 3 years or so. Most rifle ammunition performs better if one uses a 10% stronger spring. Wolff sells good ones.

January 15, 2013, 02:29 PM	#15
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Thanks for the info Bart. Have the rifle 8 years, plus dry fire alot, so I guess its time . Thanks again Chris

January 15, 2013, 03:35 PM	#16
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,089	While an OEM spring works well.... I have taken a liking to these springs...http://www.davidtubb.com/Rem_700_Short_CS_Spring One less thing to wonder about..... when did I last change that spring ? And they do offer these , if you are interested..http://www.davidtubb.com/speedlock-rem-700-short-action I've never used that though.

January 16, 2013, 02:54 PM	#17
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	bfoosh006 - thanks for the info, Just ordered the same spring from Brownells. Thanks again Chris