Hollow points in wiped supressor

Sabre9mm · August 26, 2015, 01:49 PM

My new Poseidon came with instructions explicitly saying this is a no no.
And when I googled it I found it to be a common consensus on wiped cans, but no real explanation why (common sense rule?)

Is it because it will try to expand in the neoprene, or is there some other reason? Like does it simply punch a hole in the wipe therefor decrease the effectiveness of the whole unit, or risk going boom

Not that I am going to try it, I am just curious?

BTW, the new sub2000 with the can installed, have not even had time to go shoot it yet...

skizzums · August 26, 2015, 09:40 PM

wow, makes sense. I am very surprised a wipe would expand a hollow-point, but at that kinda speed I guess it does happen, or it wouldn't be warned against. after hearing that, I would definitely not want a "wiped" suppressor.

Sabre9mm · August 26, 2015, 09:48 PM

Yeah it does not say it would, just do not use them, but that is the only reason I could think of. Then I found another post on another suppressor from Thompson machine saying not to use it with it either, and that one is NOT wiped... So still curious...

I found another thread that said something about it not being full jacket could lead to off gassing more lead and fouling the suppressor, I could not imagine if that was a huge problem it would not affect barrels more as well.

Another post said something about more potential for jacket separation and therefore more chance of hanging in the baffle, since I have had my storm lake barrel shred plated bullets in just a few feet leading to stray fragments in the target, I guess that *is* possible, but those were not hollow points, so in that case it would have been the same with round or hollow points...

This particular suppressor is wiped because it is very compact, though I acknowledge it is not the best option, it is reviewed as one of the best performing for its size, and the wipe *is* optional, just suggested for the best results in this smaller can.

Mobuck · August 27, 2015, 07:22 AM

I'm not really into the idea of "wiped" cans. Here's an observation from shooting the polymer "bouncy" targets. Roundnose FMJ bullets zip right through with hardly a mark but JHP with their sharp edged nose profile don't expand on the target but do cut a little hole in the material. How long would your wiper last if this was happening?

Sabre9mm · August 27, 2015, 08:44 AM

I figured that was a possible downside not a safety issue.
Since they have the same write up on all their suppressors though, wiped or not, I have sent brooks an email asking specifically why, and will relay back his answer for the final word (or at least their take) if he responds.

For posterity

Theohazard · August 27, 2015, 11:01 AM

I've heard of a few silencer companies -- even ones that don't make wiped cans -- who recommend against using JHP ammo. I've never heard an official explanation for this, but I have a few guesses.

First, it may be just like Sabre9mm said and they're worried about potential jacket separation inside the can. Another possibility is bullet stability; JHPs are longer than FMJs for any given bullet weight, so they're more likely to have stability problems that could cause baffle strikes. Now, most pistol barrels have rifling twists that are fast enough to handle any traditional JHP bullet, but maybe those silencer companies are just being extra careful.

As for JHPs in wiped cans, I tend to agree with Mobuck that it's probably just an issue with the bullet punching a large hole in the wipes and wearing it out much faster.

But I'm curious to hear the official company explanation.

Sabre9mm · August 28, 2015, 04:44 PM

Brooks replied with...

"The HP warning is largely out of an overabundance of caution. The danger of early expansion is the reason we put that warning in.

If you pre-punch your wipe, and are careful, you should be good to go with HP

Let me know if you have any other questions."

So there we have it folks, not blowing up my new can to test, but good to know *why* they warn on that from their perspective, hope it helps someone out.

(They are pretty supportive of their products, this sis the second reply I have gotten from them, I like that)

Sharkbite · August 28, 2015, 05:33 PM

Quote:

If you pre-punch your wipe, and are careful, you should be good to go with HP Let me know if you have any other questions."

Ok the "pre-punch" part i get. What does "and are careful" mean?

Sabre9mm · August 28, 2015, 06:27 PM

I interpreted it as do not attempt to fire 12g 3" magnum slugs through it

Sharkbite · August 28, 2015, 07:07 PM

Quote:

I interpreted it as do not attempt to fire 12g 3" magnum slugs through it

OK... Good advice

Theohazard · August 28, 2015, 09:04 PM

Thanks for sharing that info, Sabre9mm. I wonder if they've ever seen that happen with their cans, or if they're just worried about the theoretical possibility and they're covering their rear ends warranty-wise.

Sabre9mm · August 29, 2015, 11:15 PM

Just as an FYI to anyone else following this...

I got a chance to test fire this setup today along with my Glock 17 Gen 4.

I tried the following...

Remington UMC 115gr JHP & FMJ
(I knew this was not subsonic, but wanted to see how much difference the suppressor made.)

HPR EMCON "Suppressor Specific" 147gr FMJ

Winchester 147gr JHP (White Box)

Each ammo switch in the can started with a fresh wipe, I looked at the way the wipe fits into the Poseidon, and the way it is designed, even if it tried to expand, it wold have just blown the wipe out the end, so I took a chance and did not prepunch, I was a little nervous that first JHP trigger pull, but was pleased with the outcome.

I started with the 115's both shot straight, made round holes, so I figured both *safe* to test in the can, with a *significant* sound difference between with and without the it (most noticeable on the handgun) still both very loud though which is to be expected, FMJ would rip the wipe in random patterns around a center hole, JHP cut a clean hole in the center < .25 of round diameter. Wet or dry made no difference I could detect with my ears, I have no true audio testing equipment, the round hole I found very interesting...
Blew out the wipe in about 10 shots regardless of bullet form.

So I tried the EMCON FMJ, it was quiet, but for "Hyper clean" it actually seemed a lot messier, with the dry tests leaving carbon dust, a lot of smoke after each round, I was not impressed with the performance, but it was unquestionably quieter. It lacerated the wipe as well, and it failed to cycle the handgun almost every shot was a FTE with return to battery, stovepipe, or a FTE/doublefeed. It ran in the sub2000 but again messy and smokey. Flew accurate and stable, just simply not impressed though. Completely tore up / blew out the wipe in about 15 shots.

The clear winner was the 147gr JHP Winchester, cut almost surgical small holes in the < .25 of round diameter, flew stable and accurate with or without can, unquestionably the quietest of the tested, consistently, cycled both weapons without a single failure through 50 rounds, and I got 20+ rounds out of a wipe. This was a really well performing round, and as fate would have it only 20 per box at Walmart for 50 rounds, cannot beat that.

I did not have my cell, or I would have snapped some shots, next trip I will get pics of the wipes. But in all cases, the wipes performed BETTER with the HP rounds.

I will be buying more of the Winchester for standard use in these two.

And that Poseidon is actually very impressive for its size, but I simply could not tell any difference in anything other than how much carbon spray I got on myself by wetting it....

August 26, 2015, 01:49 PM	#1
Sabre9mm Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 303	Hollow points in wiped supressor My new Poseidon came with instructions explicitly saying this is a no no. And when I googled it I found it to be a common consensus on wiped cans, but no real explanation why (common sense rule?) Is it because it will try to expand in the neoprene, or is there some other reason? Like does it simply punch a hole in the wipe therefor decrease the effectiveness of the whole unit, or risk going boom Not that I am going to try it, I am just curious? BTW, the new sub2000 with the can installed, have not even had time to go shoot it yet...

August 26, 2015, 09:40 PM	#2
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	wow, makes sense. I am very surprised a wipe would expand a hollow-point, but at that kinda speed I guess it does happen, or it wouldn't be warned against. after hearing that, I would definitely not want a "wiped" suppressor. __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

August 27, 2015, 11:01 AM	#6
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Location: Western PA Posts: 3,829	I've heard of a few silencer companies -- even ones that don't make wiped cans -- who recommend against using JHP ammo. I've never heard an official explanation for this, but I have a few guesses. First, it may be just like Sabre9mm said and they're worried about potential jacket separation inside the can. Another possibility is bullet stability; JHPs are longer than FMJs for any given bullet weight, so they're more likely to have stability problems that could cause baffle strikes. Now, most pistol barrels have rifling twists that are fast enough to handle any traditional JHP bullet, but maybe those silencer companies are just being extra careful. As for JHPs in wiped cans, I tend to agree with Mobuck that it's probably just an issue with the bullet punching a large hole in the wipes and wearing it out much faster. But I'm curious to hear the official company explanation. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

August 28, 2015, 04:44 PM	#7
Sabre9mm Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 303	Official answer Brooks replied with... "The HP warning is largely out of an overabundance of caution. The danger of early expansion is the reason we put that warning in. If you pre-punch your wipe, and are careful, you should be good to go with HP Let me know if you have any other questions." So there we have it folks, not blowing up my new can to test, but good to know why they warn on that from their perspective, hope it helps someone out. (They are pretty supportive of their products, this sis the second reply I have gotten from them, I like that)

August 28, 2015, 09:04 PM	#11
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Location: Western PA Posts: 3,829	Thanks for sharing that info, Sabre9mm. I wonder if they've ever seen that happen with their cans, or if they're just worried about the theoretical possibility and they're covering their rear ends warranty-wise. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

August 26, 2015, 09:48 PM	#3
Sabre9mm Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 303	Yeah it does not say it would, just do not use them, but that is the only reason I could think of. Then I found another post on another suppressor from Thompson machine saying not to use it with it either, and that one is NOT wiped... So still curious... I found another thread that said something about it not being full jacket could lead to off gassing more lead and fouling the suppressor, I could not imagine if that was a huge problem it would not affect barrels more as well. Another post said something about more potential for jacket separation and therefore more chance of hanging in the baffle, since I have had my storm lake barrel shred plated bullets in just a few feet leading to stray fragments in the target, I guess that is possible, but those were not hollow points, so in that case it would have been the same with round or hollow points... This particular suppressor is wiped because it is very compact, though I acknowledge it is not the best option, it is reviewed as one of the best performing for its size, and the wipe is optional, just suggested for the best results in this smaller can.

August 27, 2015, 07:22 AM	#4
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	I'm not really into the idea of "wiped" cans. Here's an observation from shooting the polymer "bouncy" targets. Roundnose FMJ bullets zip right through with hardly a mark but JHP with their sharp edged nose profile don't expand on the target but do cut a little hole in the material. How long would your wiper last if this was happening?

August 27, 2015, 08:44 AM	#5
Sabre9mm Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 303	I figured that was a possible downside not a safety issue. Since they have the same write up on all their suppressors though, wiped or not, I have sent brooks an email asking specifically why, and will relay back his answer for the final word (or at least their take) if he responds. For posterity

August 28, 2015, 06:27 PM	#9
Sabre9mm Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 303	I interpreted it as do not attempt to fire 12g 3" magnum slugs through it

August 29, 2015, 11:15 PM	#12
Sabre9mm Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 303	Just as an FYI to anyone else following this... I got a chance to test fire this setup today along with my Glock 17 Gen 4. I tried the following... Remington UMC 115gr JHP & FMJ (I knew this was not subsonic, but wanted to see how much difference the suppressor made.) HPR EMCON "Suppressor Specific" 147gr FMJ Winchester 147gr JHP (White Box) Each ammo switch in the can started with a fresh wipe, I looked at the way the wipe fits into the Poseidon, and the way it is designed, even if it tried to expand, it wold have just blown the wipe out the end, so I took a chance and did not prepunch, I was a little nervous that first JHP trigger pull, but was pleased with the outcome. I started with the 115's both shot straight, made round holes, so I figured both safe to test in the can, with a significant sound difference between with and without the it (most noticeable on the handgun) still both very loud though which is to be expected, FMJ would rip the wipe in random patterns around a center hole, JHP cut a clean hole in the center < .25 of round diameter. Wet or dry made no difference I could detect with my ears, I have no true audio testing equipment, the round hole I found very interesting... Blew out the wipe in about 10 shots regardless of bullet form. So I tried the EMCON FMJ, it was quiet, but for "Hyper clean" it actually seemed a lot messier, with the dry tests leaving carbon dust, a lot of smoke after each round, I was not impressed with the performance, but it was unquestionably quieter. It lacerated the wipe as well, and it failed to cycle the handgun almost every shot was a FTE with return to battery, stovepipe, or a FTE/doublefeed. It ran in the sub2000 but again messy and smokey. Flew accurate and stable, just simply not impressed though. Completely tore up / blew out the wipe in about 15 shots. The clear winner was the 147gr JHP Winchester, cut almost surgical small holes in the < .25 of round diameter, flew stable and accurate with or without can, unquestionably the quietest of the tested, consistently, cycled both weapons without a single failure through 50 rounds, and I got 20+ rounds out of a wipe. This was a really well performing round, and as fate would have it only 20 per box at Walmart for 50 rounds, cannot beat that. I did not have my cell, or I would have snapped some shots, next trip I will get pics of the wipes. But in all cases, the wipes performed BETTER with the HP rounds. I will be buying more of the Winchester for standard use in these two. And that Poseidon is actually very impressive for its size, but I simply could not tell any difference in anything other than how much carbon spray I got on myself by wetting it....