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August 20, 2018, 11:49 AM | #51 |
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It will come down (Like I know) to reasonable doubt, IMHO. Is there a reasonable fear of continuing grievous bodily harm.
As far as the shooter, he will be ruined personally and it is well deserved. I don't buy that going up to a car window and yelling or 'politely discussing' something is the world's best plan. Would he have done it to a car full of males? Doubt it. Also, someone coming up to my car window and 'discussing' is close to being threatening to me. I would probably call the law and think about various options.
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August 20, 2018, 03:24 PM | #52 |
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To anyone who thinks that this shooter was justified in pulling the trigger for being shoved and falling to the ground, I do have a few comments. Maybe they were already voiced, I read thru half the comments only.
It really doesn't take much to shove someone to the ground. It might not even be called a 'violent' shove. Someones caught off guard and loses their balance, they will fall down. Simple as that. Even a two handed shove might not be enough to be called 'violent'. Now you might be asking yourself, how does spacemanspiff know this? What life experience might he have to lead him to say something like that? I spent 10 years working part time as a bouncer. I've been shoved by plenty a drunk, and done my fair share of shoving drunks, or sometimes just plain ol obnoxious jerks who were sober but combative and aggressive. I've done such in the presence of police officers doing walk throughs of the bar. I've had customers that tried to complain about being forcibly removed, in which they did fall to the ground after I shoved them out the door. If you believe that being shoved to the ground by someone who is NOT DISPLAYING ANY WEAPON justifies the use of deadly force, you are pretty much saying that any person I have removed from the bar, or stepped in and broken up a fight between patrons, you are saying that the vast majority of those people would have been justified in shooting me and any other bouncer I have worked with. By the letter of the law, being shoved to the ground constitutes an assault. However, in my years spent as a bouncer I learned that if I wanted to press charges against a person who laid hands on me, I needed to be able to show evidence that their contact with me caused me bodily harm. Long gone are the days where you can get someone thrown in jail for just touching you. Now, it was my job as bar security to do all that. Police recognized that, and so did bar management. But lets go back to the original topic here. Did the shooter in this story have any job he was performing to even mouth off to the woman who parked in a handicapped spot? No. Was he justified in mouthing off? No. Did he know for a 100% fact that it was not a legitimately used handicapped space? No. Even though she committed the first wrong, the shooters confronting her was also in the wrong. No one won anything except stupid prizes that day.
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August 20, 2018, 03:35 PM | #53 |
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The only reason that the threat stopped was because of the victim had the gun. If he hadn't produced it, the assault would have continued. If everyone just obeyed the law, this wouldn't have happened. I would have called 911 on the illegally parked car. He very well may have been looking for a fight and he found one. It didn't warrent dying but the first offense was not respecting handicapped laws.
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August 20, 2018, 06:58 PM | #54 | |
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This incident reminds me of the woman who took a couple shots at a guy for stealing someone else's groceries. Stealing groceries is not justification for shooting someone. Being shoved is not grounds for killing someone, regardless of any "stand your ground" law. If you think it is, then you really shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun. |
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August 20, 2018, 09:33 PM | #55 | |
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mid 20s youth vs 60-70-80+ year old? Much different. If the shove isn't fatal, the very next blow could well be. If ALL it is, is a shove and nothing else, I'd say shooting isn't justified. ANYTHING else that could be interpreted as hostile changes the equation. And, every single incident is different enough in particulars that matter, so blanket statements don't cover well. Simply put, if you intentionally shoot someone you don't have to, you should go to jail. Do not pass GO, do not collect $200. If you honestly believe you have to, then you believe you have to. If the jury agrees, you'll go free. If they don't, you'll go to jail.
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August 20, 2018, 09:47 PM | #56 | |
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I also agree that every incident is different, and there could be all kinds of mitigating factors that could change the actions and legal outcomes of this type of situation. My argument was aimed at just this situation however. It's possible that let my initial emotional reaction shade my response here. I just get annoyed by these incidents because they make the rest of us lawful CCs look like idiots. And I hate having to explain to my pro-gun control friends that not everyone who carries thinks this guy and those like him did the right thing. Anyway, 44AMP, you're right and I agree with your points. But in this particular incidence, this guy didn't do the rest of us any favors. |
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August 20, 2018, 10:30 PM | #57 |
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There have been any number of cases during which big, tough, unarmed children have beaten little old men half to death. If it had stopped before that first punch, before the aggressive actions became an attack, these people laying in hospitals in comas would be safe.
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August 20, 2018, 10:34 PM | #58 | |
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McGlockton was 28 -- Drejka is 47. That's not my idea of the same age group, unless you just classify "adult" as an age group. |
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August 20, 2018, 11:36 PM | #59 | ||||||||||
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But whatever, arguing about what might have or might not have taken place (whether you call it speculation or not) isn't necessary. We can see what DID happen and that's enough to assess the situation accurately. Quote:
However, as you pointed out initially, it's not relevant to the shooting. Quote:
"A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes..." It doesn't matter what a defender believes if that belief is unreasonable. A person who genuinely believes that an unarmed attacker is a deadly danger even while a distance away doesn't hold a REASONABLE belief and therefore the justification isn't there. Quote:
But that's not what happened. The attacker immediately began to back off when the man on the ground reached for his gun, before he could even see what the man was reaching for. And he continued to back off, even turning away before he was finally shot. Quote:
The defense lawyer will likely try to make the point that a violent assault can be very disorienting and, depending on his/her ability and on the validity of the point and the presence of evidence, may convince the jury. I'm not trying to get into the details of how juries are seated, but it's important to understand that it's not reasonable to expect that a jury in a case like this will be composed of, or even include any members who have been violently assaulted. Quote:
What did happen was that the attack was immediately halted and the attacker immediately began to retreat. Quote:
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August 20, 2018, 11:49 PM | #60 | |
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Not sure why you're so hot to defend this guy anyway. He (Drejka) has a history of not only verbally threatening people, and brandishing his weapon at unarmed people (apparently over that same handicapped parking space, which is just idiotic), but also a history of using racial slurs while doing so. In other words, he's the kind of racist nitwit we should all be trying to avoid and avoid being like in any way, shape or form. |
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August 20, 2018, 11:52 PM | #61 |
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In all fairness, even racist jerks have the right to self-defense. It may not be intuitive, but even criminals can still retain their right to self-defense while actively engaged in crime--under certain circumstances.
The issue here is whether or not the circumstances of the situation justify deadly force. Not what kind of a person Drejka was, or McGlockton was, or McGlockton's girlfriend was.
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August 21, 2018, 08:17 AM | #62 | |||
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It is safe to say most reasonable people don't find either sympathetic. This case is messy and it is why a trial is needed. None of us knows. The facts and the law have to be applied in a court. |
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August 21, 2018, 08:59 AM | #63 |
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Just as an information point. The Armed Society is a Polite Society quote comes from a Robert Heinlein book which postulates a very nasty culture which was a genetically determined caste system. People wore tatoos of their genetic status and there was a clearly discriminated against genetic underclass. The 'armed' part came from a dueling aspect of young toughs who bossed others around. Not a 'polite' society in our terms.
The hero of the book, in fact, thought the dueling aspect was stupid and was going to abandon being armed and wearing an arm band that announced he could not be challenged in a duel. The flip side was that he had to deter to the dueling culture toughs. He was convinced by a member of the ruling class not to do that and for grins carried a 1911 instead of the usual ray guns. The latter made neat cauterized holes and usually survivable. His opponents were shocked by 45 ACP impact. Not so nice. Thus, the mantra, if you know its origin, isn't what you think it is.
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August 21, 2018, 09:13 AM | #64 |
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I'll put my .02 in. My opinion is a couple of wrongs are here. First off the shooter is NOT the handicap parking police. Did he have a right to say something? Of coarse he did. If he elected to go about his business and not say anything we wouldn't be having this discussion. Should the boyfriend have pushed the shooter? Maybe yes, maybe not. My opinion is this, not being there or being personally involved. Once the man on the ground pulled his gun it appears that the threat/attack stops. If the deceased had taken a step toward the man on the ground I would say he has every right to stop the continuing threat/attack. I would have a hard time finding the shooter not guilty seeing what has been presented so far.
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August 21, 2018, 10:13 AM | #65 | |
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The reality is that neither lawyer wants anyone on the jury who might know something other than what the lawyers (and the judge) tell them. And, remember that while witnesses testifying are under oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, neither the prosecutor, nor the defense attorney take that oath!!
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August 21, 2018, 10:29 AM | #66 |
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The definition of belief should be examined, as well as the definition of reasonable belief. Note that 'belief" has absolutely no bearing on what is true and factual. Reasonable belief is a relative term, based on assessment by rational thought by rational people. belief may be based on fact, and in fact may be factual, as well as reasonable, but everyone is a closed system with limited abilities at finding and facts and truth. many people unreasonably believe that they can make no mistakes.
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August 21, 2018, 11:01 AM | #67 |
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Terms like "reasonable", "gross", and "wanton" are used in criminal and civil law all the time. There are no precise definitions for these terms.
It comes down to what the jury deems to be reasonable, gross, or wanton. |
August 21, 2018, 03:15 PM | #68 |
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Without all the facts (not speculation) it is hard to be certain, but from what has been released, it APPEARS to me that the shooter was not justified in his actions.
I agree that as a gun carrier, one has to be ever more cautious about not instigating any confrontation that might escalate into a force encounter. However, I does seem like a sad commentary on society today when we are afraid to make even the most innocuous comment about rude, obnoxious, or otherwise socially unacceptable behavior for fear of provoking an assault on one's self. |
August 21, 2018, 07:01 PM | #69 |
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One thing I am seeing is a whole lot of speculation and where is and ifs and what was and this maybe.
I think the stand your ground thing was a badly done law. It mucked up things as it became totally subjective. You should be threatened and not feel threatened. Frankly you are justified in using force if someone else is threatened, but they darn well better have proof. If you want to police parking spaces, then get a camera, record it and submit it to the police departments. In this case the individual was clearly looking to make it a confrontation and succeeded beyond what he thought (yelling at a woman that is below your in my opinion could be interpreted as stand your ground and she had a right to shoot him) Getting into brandishing weapons is also a red haring. You can pull a gun and be in the defend yourself mode, but if that changes then you don't have to shoot. In this case, the sight of the gun clearly deescalated it, the shover backed off and was moving away. I think despite the self created circumstance there was justification to pull the gun. The nut case had ratcheted himself up tot he point that he was going to shoot the shover, he was just looking for an excuse (and was given it) Armed Society are not peaceful, they are dangerous. Trained Police often fail the test, non trained citizens? WE all know responsible people, we all know dangerously out of control or on the edge people and all of them can have a gun. Just go to the range and watch the gun handling. Some very nice people scare the be-jesus out of you.
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August 21, 2018, 07:45 PM | #70 | |
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How about "Armed individuals might not be peaceful, they may be dangerous" We(armed individuals) should not all be lumped into that same category.
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22lr, 20 gauge, 8mm Mauser, 35 Remington, 30-06, 5.56x45/223, 9mm, 380acp Last edited by GarandTd; August 21, 2018 at 07:48 PM. Reason: Changed "can not" to "should not" |
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August 21, 2018, 10:34 PM | #71 |
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So, someone died because of being parked in the wrong parking space.
Regardless of the outcome of the court case, the moral of the story is clear here (and I've said it many times,and I'll say it again): A concealed carry permit does not make you a policeman. Don't go looking for trouble. If you are assaulted or threatened, then deal with the threat. Otherwise, mind your own business and go home. At the end of the day, someone died over a parking spot at a convience store. Justified or not, it's just stupid.
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August 21, 2018, 11:35 PM | #72 | |||
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The entire "stand your ground" soundbyte is misleading. The law doesn't require you to stand your ground, it just removed the legal requirement to retreat (when physically possible) and the spurious prosecution via civil suits if you chose not to retreat. "Reasonable" people are still expected to retreat/de-escalate/de-fuze the situation if possible. All the stand your ground laws do is remove legal penalties if you don't. Whether or not deadly force is justified, and when are still the same as they were before stand your ground, and is a separate matter under our legal system. Quote:
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August 22, 2018, 09:05 AM | #73 | ||
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One element of respect can be a recognition that another has the capacity to do harm, but chooses not to. A harmless person can't make that choice and may not gain the respect one gives a genuinely moral actor. Whether the fellow in the video reasonably believed that he was subject to great bodily harm or a continuing felonious assault isn't resolved by a silent video. One would need more information to reasonably conclude that the shooter deserves to be ruined, and it should not be the object of a criminal justice system to ruin a person without respect to guilt.
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August 22, 2018, 09:13 AM | #74 | |
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August 22, 2018, 12:04 PM | #75 |
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Stand your ground has nothing to do with this, and the official claiming otherwise is grossly ignorant of the law or deliberately misstating it to serve some agenda.
As for the shooter, if you are an armed person and you shoot an unarmed one with not so much as a scratch on you, there are going to be consequences. You should expect to go to jail, lose your job, lose all your money and most of your possessions, and probably lose some close personal relationships as well. I’m not saying that is just; but you should expect it because it certainly happens in a lot of those cases. That’s why your threshhold should be “Do I have to shoot now in order to stop my immediate death or serious bodily injury?” Even if it was justified, you might still spend some time in jail and have to spend everything you have and everything you and your family can borrow. Frank Ettin used to have a list of people who were acquitted in self-defense shootings but lost everything. We’ve probably seen a dozen more since the last time the list was posted. One thing they all have in common: armed person shooting unarmed person. If you can avoid that scenario, you should. |
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