Best 12gague with a pistol grip for home defence.

Beaten · July 15, 2001, 10:11 PM

What would you suggest for a college student?

Ewok_Guy · July 15, 2001, 11:00 PM

Winchester 1300 Defender

Quartus · July 15, 2001, 11:51 PM

Any good quality 12 or 20 gauge. Skip the fancy stuff. Use 00

Dave McC · July 16, 2001, 02:42 AM

Find the local gun shop that handles police tradeins and get a used 870 with 18" bbl. Most cruiser guns get shot very little, they do get dinged up which affect the value a bit.

There's tons of old threads here about why PGs on shotguns are egregious, I suggest you read up on them before you make a possibly tragic mistake.

July 16, 2001, 06:17 AM

http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm

Kevinch · July 16, 2001, 06:53 AM

From what I have been read & told, there aren't any - meaning your better off with a full length synthetic stock, especially in a 12 gauge. I guess in a 410 & maybe a 20 gauge the pistol grip might not be a bad alternative, but recoil of a 12 is said to be vicious when set up this way.

Dave McC · July 16, 2001, 08:34 AM

I fired hundreds/thousands of rounds of 00 from PG shotguns because I had to.As an instructor, I had to teach hundreds of rookies to shoot, and MD DOC, in its infinite wisdom, decreed that they had to be able to shoot from the hip like John Wayne.

As an instructor,I had to qualify and score over 90% to keep my certification. I did,but it took more work to get the hits.Many rookies had trouble qualifying with the shotgun, and scores from the hip were much lower even with troops used to shotgunning.

After all that training and practice, if I ever have to use my shotgun in a crisis, it will be fired from the shoulder and have a standard stock.
The sights will be used at anything over contact distance.

OTOH, if some enemy is coming after me with a shotgun, I fervently hope his has a PG.

Nuff said....

C.R.Sam · July 16, 2001, 11:01 AM

Many folks think that in a home defence situation, a shotgun is best because it doesn't require precise aiming.

Wrong.......think of a 12 ga shotgun as a .73 cal rifle. Even shooting from the hip, which takes a lot of practice to do well, a full stock is quicker and more accurate for most people.

The neophyte would do well to heed Dave's words. When one with his long experience with pistol grip shotguns says they are difficult to use effectively, take that as sage advice.

The advantage of a shotgun for close up defence is the very high probability of gettin the job done with one well placed shot. And a low probability of takin out a neighbor or two with that shot.

Sam.....you can't stop em with a cannon if you can't hit em.

ATTICUS · July 17, 2001, 02:49 PM

Dave McC: Great advice. I picked up a PD trade-in today at a local shop. It is a Rem 870 with an 18" barrel and a mag extension. It isn't real pretty, but it was $119. Awesome! Unfortunately the NICS was down. Hope to pick it up tomorrow.

CWL · July 17, 2001, 05:09 PM

Beaten,

Don't get a PG. I know it looks really "badass" but you're not going to hit much if the SHTF.

In practical usage, firing a shotgun with a shoulder stock takes up the same (or less) forward space than one fired using a PG. After trying to shoot it off your hip & one handed, you're going to start holding that "sucker" as far out as possible to absorb recoil.

Coronach · July 17, 2001, 10:53 PM

Are we talking about a PG-only configuration or a PG-and-full-stock? If its the latter, fine. My PD is about to go to that. I'm not really thrilled (I prefer standard stock only), but I'll make do.

PG-only weapons are best left to the actors and special effects guys. If you don't believe me, try it yourself:

Take one short little bad-ass PG shotgun and a few boxes of 00 buck out to the range.

Shoot all the ammo.

When you are able to type again, tell us how it felt.

Mike

Dave McC · July 18, 2001, 08:07 AM

Don't have a coronary,Coroneach(G). Full stocks with PGs work, PGs only do not,IMO. While I see little advantage to a full stock w/ PG, I see little wrong. Personal choice, or in this case, dept fiat.

Atticus, is that shop anyplace close to Md? For $119, I'd be there waving plastic in a heartbeat.

PD tradeins are golden opportunities. Most have been carried a lot and shot little. The Arlington, Va cruiser gun that's now my Deer 870 looked brand new inside, and my smith buddy stated it might never have been fired. I picked up a rifle sighted slug bbl for ,IIRC,$10 more than I sold the old bead sighted riot bbl.

An acquaintance picked up a tradein recently with Remchokes, rifle sights, sling studs and a Flextab conversion for $ 200. Wood's ugly but who cares?

Coronach · July 18, 2001, 08:20 AM

Heh, in other times and other places when I used this name, my nickname was 'Coronary.' I could be a bit, uhm, strident about some things.

Mike

ATTICUS · July 18, 2001, 01:06 PM

Dave McC: Central Ohio (but distance is relative I guess) I picked mine up over lunch today and can't wait to do a little "exploring".
I've never owned a Remington SG - do you really need a removal tool to remove the forend?

Marko Kloos · July 18, 2001, 01:40 PM

My Mossenberger has a pistol grip and a folding stock, which is still a compromise for the sake of handy carry & storage. I know that I'd never use it without the folding stock out and locked, though...you can't hit beans with a pistol-gripped shotgun. The stock is folded when the shotgun is stored, but it gets extended as soon as I pick the Mossberg up.

I do like pistol grips, as they enhance the handling of a long gun for me, but I'd never go with a "PG only" configuration on a shotgun.

Shin-Tao · July 18, 2001, 08:53 PM

I have a PG only Wichester 1300 Defender. The 1300 is a very smooth operating weapon. The PG only configuration is very close to silly. I prefer PG with stock, ala M16.

Dave McC · July 19, 2001, 07:32 AM

Atticus, to separate the forearm wood from the metal,I use needlenose pliers, not some overpriced special tool. Insert the points in the notches and unscrew.

I wouldn't say "Strident", Mike. Just committed...

scouter27 · July 19, 2001, 01:09 PM

I shot my PG SG for the first time today. Four shots of 2.75" high brass was too much, but after a short brake, I shot two more, and so-on. Low brass was easy to handle though. I didn't do too bad, I was able to hit a pepsi can at 25 paces, which is further than I could shoot in my house.

Dave McC · July 20, 2001, 08:07 AM

Scouter, shoot that PG shotgun and one with a full stock side by side on any course of fire you like.Shoot for both time and score. A flagon of mead says that shortly thereafter, you'll be getting a full stock.

One thing about PG only shotguns. I know SWAT & HRT team members,Drug raid cops,military guys with berets,some very fit looking govt employees who do not talk about their jobs, and a whole messa folks who have seen the elephant one way or another. Darn few of them have PG only shotguns.

BigG · July 20, 2001, 08:16 AM

You can buy a police trade in at Potomac Arms Zero Prince Street, Alexandria, VA for cheap. At least you used to be able to when I lived in the area. Lotsa Ithaca pumps, 870s, etc. The stock allows the option for buttstroke, also.

I used to be partial to a Browning Automatic 5 with a short bbl.

Also, consider an old but well cared for double. Shorter by 6 inches for equivalent bbl length than any repeater. Commands big time respect when Mr. BG is confronted with those twin BIG holes!

ATTICUS · July 20, 2001, 10:09 AM

Dave: Thanks for the advice about the pliers, I'll give it a try.

Solitar · July 22, 2001, 01:45 PM

Kevinch said:
"recoil of a 12 is said to be vicious when set up this way."

Been there, done that with 3" magnum 00 buck, #4 buck, & S&B 00 buck from a Winchester 1200 pistol grip (with riveted side saddle and Butler Creek folding stock). The reports of "vicious" recoil from using only the pistol grip are a bunch of BS unless the shooter weighs under 150lbs and is slight of height and frame.

For a college dorm I'd use the pistol grip and #6 birdshot backed up by #4 buck and, if with a sidesaddle, backed up by 00 buck. Slugs are way too penetrative.

I'd keep the folder's screw tight and the hinge oiled though for ease of swinging out the stock if needed for longer range work - over 5 yards.

GI Joe · July 22, 2001, 08:04 PM

What if the shooter is 6'4 and weighs 135 lbs? Seriously, does the recoil of a PG only go straight back to the wrists or does it jar your ribcage (when fired from the hip)? I suspect that would be quite painful either way

Dave McC · July 23, 2001, 08:41 AM

Solitar,I'm 6'2", 250 lbs,take a size 52 coat, rarely wear a wrist watch because I can't find a band that will fit, and leave the area fragrant with newly made testosterone when I walk through. I've survived one war, three prison riots and a couple of Cub Scout camping trips. And no shotgun of mine has ever had only a PG nor will they.

PG only shotguns are vicious kickers. I've more experience with them than most, for years it was my job to shoot them and teach others to also. A 5 round demo stings,10 rounds or more can hurt.

The kick can be dealt with to an extent by training and practice. What cannot be improved is the plain fact that it's harder to hit with the $%^&* things than with a shoulder operated weapon.In crises, one heckuvalot harder. And those are the last places one needs extra limitations.

If one is committed to the idea that short range scenarios are best dealt with by hip shooting and PG shotguns, fine. Just do not expect either reality nor myself to agree.

**Mike Irwin** · July 23, 2001, 11:09 AM

Another vote against the pistol grip-only stock. Almost every one of the "buckshot rounds to the ceiling" at the range I used to work at happened because people didn't know how to handle a pistol-gripped shotgun. Unless you've got a TON of training, you're very likely going to shoot way high, possibly over the target.

One mistake a lot of people make when shooting PG-shotgun is to keep the shoulder and elbow locked in. Big mistake, as it really beats your hand and wrist up.

The best way to handle the recoil is to let your arm and elbow pivot back with the recoil. That absorbs a lot of the force, and takes a lot of the strain off of your hand and wrist.

July 15, 2001, 10:11 PM	#1
Beaten Junior Member Join Date: July 15, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 1	Best 12gague with a pistol grip for home defence. What would you suggest for a college student? __________________ I'm out like a fat kid in dodge ball.

July 15, 2001, 11:51 PM	#3
Quartus Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 3,823	Any good quality 12 or 20 gauge. Skip the fancy stuff. Use 00 __________________ . Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.

July 16, 2001, 06:17 AM	#5
PreserveFreedom Guest Posts: n/a	If you don't mind jumping through a couple of hoops... http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm

July 16, 2001, 08:34 AM	#7
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I fired hundreds/thousands of rounds of 00 from PG shotguns because I had to.As an instructor, I had to teach hundreds of rookies to shoot, and MD DOC, in its infinite wisdom, decreed that they had to be able to shoot from the hip like John Wayne. As an instructor,I had to qualify and score over 90% to keep my certification. I did,but it took more work to get the hits.Many rookies had trouble qualifying with the shotgun, and scores from the hip were much lower even with troops used to shotgunning. After all that training and practice, if I ever have to use my shotgun in a crisis, it will be fired from the shoulder and have a standard stock. The sights will be used at anything over contact distance. OTOH, if some enemy is coming after me with a shotgun, I fervently hope his has a PG. Nuff said.... Last edited by Dave McC; July 17, 2001 at 08:45 AM.

July 17, 2001, 10:53 PM	#11
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	Now hang on.... Are we talking about a PG-only configuration or a PG-and-full-stock? If its the latter, fine. My PD is about to go to that. I'm not really thrilled (I prefer standard stock only), but I'll make do. PG-only weapons are best left to the actors and special effects guys. If you don't believe me, try it yourself: Take one short little bad-ass PG shotgun and a few boxes of 00 buck out to the range. Shoot all the ammo. When you are able to type again, tell us how it felt. Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

July 15, 2001, 11:00 PM	#2
Ewok_Guy Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2001 Location: Endor Posts: 1,664	Winchester 1300 Defender

July 16, 2001, 02:42 AM	#4
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Find the local gun shop that handles police tradeins and get a used 870 with 18" bbl. Most cruiser guns get shot very little, they do get dinged up which affect the value a bit. There's tons of old threads here about why PGs on shotguns are egregious, I suggest you read up on them before you make a possibly tragic mistake.

July 16, 2001, 06:53 AM	#6
Kevinch Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2001 Location: NE OH. Posts: 828	Best with a pistol grip? From what I have been read & told, there aren't any - meaning your better off with a full length synthetic stock, especially in a 12 gauge. I guess in a 410 & maybe a 20 gauge the pistol grip might not be a bad alternative, but recoil of a 12 is said to be vicious when set up this way. __________________ ...arms...discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. ...Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law abiding) deprived the use of them. --Thomas Paine

July 16, 2001, 11:01 AM	#8
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Many folks think that in a home defence situation, a shotgun is best because it doesn't require precise aiming. Wrong.......think of a 12 ga shotgun as a .73 cal rifle. Even shooting from the hip, which takes a lot of practice to do well, a full stock is quicker and more accurate for most people. The neophyte would do well to heed Dave's words. When one with his long experience with pistol grip shotguns says they are difficult to use effectively, take that as sage advice. The advantage of a shotgun for close up defence is the very high probability of gettin the job done with one well placed shot. And a low probability of takin out a neighbor or two with that shot. Sam.....you can't stop em with a cannon if you can't hit em.

July 17, 2001, 02:49 PM	#9
ATTICUS Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,100	Dave McC: Great advice. I picked up a PD trade-in today at a local shop. It is a Rem 870 with an 18" barrel and a mag extension. It isn't real pretty, but it was $119. Awesome! Unfortunately the NICS was down. Hope to pick it up tomorrow.

July 17, 2001, 05:09 PM	#10
CWL Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2001 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 1,576	Beaten, Don't get a PG. I know it looks really "badass" but you're not going to hit much if the SHTF. In practical usage, firing a shotgun with a shoulder stock takes up the same (or less) forward space than one fired using a PG. After trying to shoot it off your hip & one handed, you're going to start holding that "sucker" as far out as possible to absorb recoil.

July 18, 2001, 08:07 AM	#12
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Don't have a coronary,Coroneach(G). Full stocks with PGs work, PGs only do not,IMO. While I see little advantage to a full stock w/ PG, I see little wrong. Personal choice, or in this case, dept fiat. Atticus, is that shop anyplace close to Md? For $119, I'd be there waving plastic in a heartbeat. PD tradeins are golden opportunities. Most have been carried a lot and shot little. The Arlington, Va cruiser gun that's now my Deer 870 looked brand new inside, and my smith buddy stated it might never have been fired. I picked up a rifle sighted slug bbl for ,IIRC,$10 more than I sold the old bead sighted riot bbl. An acquaintance picked up a tradein recently with Remchokes, rifle sights, sling studs and a Flextab conversion for $ 200. Wood's ugly but who cares?

July 18, 2001, 08:20 AM	#13
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	Heh, in other times and other places when I used this name, my nickname was 'Coronary.' I could be a bit, uhm, strident about some things. Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

July 18, 2001, 01:06 PM	#14
ATTICUS Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,100	Dave McC: Central Ohio (but distance is relative I guess) I picked mine up over lunch today and can't wait to do a little "exploring". I've never owned a Remington SG - do you really need a removal tool to remove the forend?

July 18, 2001, 01:40 PM	#15
Marko Kloos Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: Enfield, NH Posts: 5,521	My Mossenberger has a pistol grip and a folding stock, which is still a compromise for the sake of handy carry & storage. I know that I'd never use it without the folding stock out and locked, though...you can't hit beans with a pistol-gripped shotgun. The stock is folded when the shotgun is stored, but it gets extended as soon as I pick the Mossberg up. I do like pistol grips, as they enhance the handling of a long gun for me, but I'd never go with a "PG only" configuration on a shotgun. __________________ "The right to buy weapons is the right to be free." --A.E. Van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher the munchkin wrangler.

July 18, 2001, 08:53 PM	#16
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	I have a PG only Wichester 1300 Defender. The 1300 is a very smooth operating weapon. The PG only configuration is very close to silly. I prefer PG with stock, ala M16. __________________ SPQR

July 19, 2001, 07:32 AM	#17
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Atticus, to separate the forearm wood from the metal,I use needlenose pliers, not some overpriced special tool. Insert the points in the notches and unscrew. I wouldn't say "Strident", Mike. Just committed...

July 19, 2001, 01:09 PM	#18
scouter27 Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2001 Location: pennsylvania Posts: 420	I shot my PG SG for the first time today. Four shots of 2.75" high brass was too much, but after a short brake, I shot two more, and so-on. Low brass was easy to handle though. I didn't do too bad, I was able to hit a pepsi can at 25 paces, which is further than I could shoot in my house. __________________ Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons. S/F Jesse

July 20, 2001, 08:07 AM	#19
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Scouter, shoot that PG shotgun and one with a full stock side by side on any course of fire you like.Shoot for both time and score. A flagon of mead says that shortly thereafter, you'll be getting a full stock. One thing about PG only shotguns. I know SWAT & HRT team members,Drug raid cops,military guys with berets,some very fit looking govt employees who do not talk about their jobs, and a whole messa folks who have seen the elephant one way or another. Darn few of them have PG only shotguns.

July 20, 2001, 08:16 AM	#20
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	You can buy a police trade in at Potomac Arms Zero Prince Street, Alexandria, VA for cheap. At least you used to be able to when I lived in the area. Lotsa Ithaca pumps, 870s, etc. The stock allows the option for buttstroke, also. I used to be partial to a Browning Automatic 5 with a short bbl. Also, consider an old but well cared for double. Shorter by 6 inches for equivalent bbl length than any repeater. Commands big time respect when Mr. BG is confronted with those twin BIG holes! __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

July 20, 2001, 10:09 AM	#21
ATTICUS Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,100	Dave: Thanks for the advice about the pliers, I'll give it a try.

July 22, 2001, 01:45 PM	#22
Solitar Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2000 Location: Solitary Posts: 717	Kevinch said: "recoil of a 12 is said to be vicious when set up this way." Been there, done that with 3" magnum 00 buck, #4 buck, & S&B 00 buck from a Winchester 1200 pistol grip (with riveted side saddle and Butler Creek folding stock). The reports of "vicious" recoil from using only the pistol grip are a bunch of BS unless the shooter weighs under 150lbs and is slight of height and frame. For a college dorm I'd use the pistol grip and #6 birdshot backed up by #4 buck and, if with a sidesaddle, backed up by 00 buck. Slugs are way too penetrative. I'd keep the folder's screw tight and the hinge oiled though for ease of swinging out the stock if needed for longer range work - over 5 yards.

July 22, 2001, 08:04 PM	#23
GI Joe Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2000 Posts: 158	What if the shooter is 6'4 and weighs 135 lbs? Seriously, does the recoil of a PG only go straight back to the wrists or does it jar your ribcage (when fired from the hip)? I suspect that would be quite painful either way

July 23, 2001, 08:41 AM	#24
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Solitar,I'm 6'2", 250 lbs,take a size 52 coat, rarely wear a wrist watch because I can't find a band that will fit, and leave the area fragrant with newly made testosterone when I walk through. I've survived one war, three prison riots and a couple of Cub Scout camping trips. And no shotgun of mine has ever had only a PG nor will they. PG only shotguns are vicious kickers. I've more experience with them than most, for years it was my job to shoot them and teach others to also. A 5 round demo stings,10 rounds or more can hurt. The kick can be dealt with to an extent by training and practice. What cannot be improved is the plain fact that it's harder to hit with the $%^&* things than with a shoulder operated weapon.In crises, one heckuvalot harder. And those are the last places one needs extra limitations. If one is committed to the idea that short range scenarios are best dealt with by hip shooting and PG shotguns, fine. Just do not expect either reality nor myself to agree.

July 23, 2001, 11:09 AM	#25
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Another vote against the pistol grip-only stock. Almost every one of the "buckshot rounds to the ceiling" at the range I used to work at happened because people didn't know how to handle a pistol-gripped shotgun. Unless you've got a TON of training, you're very likely going to shoot way high, possibly over the target. One mistake a lot of people make when shooting PG-shotgun is to keep the shoulder and elbow locked in. Big mistake, as it really beats your hand and wrist up. The best way to handle the recoil is to let your arm and elbow pivot back with the recoil. That absorbs a lot of the force, and takes a lot of the strain off of your hand and wrist. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.