paper cartridges

oldknotty · May 7, 2014, 06:10 PM

I am planning on having a go at making my own paper cartridges after seeing a fellow on You Tube do it with cigarette papers and glue .My question is , if i do not wish to make the same powerful charge that he does , can i top the cartridge off with corn meal , grits or some such stuff ??
Thanks old knotty

mehavey · May 7, 2014, 07:59 PM

Yes. N-SSA shooters do exactly that.
In fact as much as half or more of the (paper) case may be cornmeal for my 50-yard/Buffalo-slug loads.

oldknotty · May 7, 2014, 08:34 PM

Thank you Mehavey i appreciate it

maillemaker · May 7, 2014, 08:37 PM

I don't think a filler like that will work with paper cartridges. Here's why:

Typically in N-SSA competition, I pour in the measured powder charge, then I pour in a measured filler, then seat the ball. The ball should totally compress the filler and the powder.

If it doesn't, then the powder and the filler mix, resulting in a diluted, inconsistent charge, which will result in diluted, inconsistent accuracy. With every shot, the recoil mixes the remaining charges more.

A paper cartridge filled with both powder and filler will not be compressed out of the gun, so naturally the powder and filler will mix together during handling.

Instead, I'd use felt wads.

Steve

mehavey · May 7, 2014, 09:04 PM

Note that in the instructions above, it takes sufficient cornmeal to totally fill the case above the powder.
When the slug (or conical) is then pressed into the case past the driving ring, it compresses and fixes the powder/filler column.

It works, and easily withstands rough skirmish line activity during even rushed loading/reloading and grab-bag carbine cartridge box handling.
Trust me.

.

bedbugbilly · May 8, 2014, 08:44 AM

I think maillemaker has some good thoughts on that. If you make the cartridges and they get a lot of "jostling" - you could end up with the filler mixing with the powder and get the results he is talking about.

oldknotty - there are several things you don't mention in your post. What caliber and what charge are you talking about? You mention you don't want to make as strong of a load as in the video - what charge are you planning on using? I ask this for a reason.

In my Navies (36 cal) I shoot anywhere from 18gr to 22 gr of FFFG with a over the powder wad and round ball. Do you use an over the powder wad? What charge are you going to use? If you don't use a wad (some folks don't) - does your "normal charge" that you want to use in the cartridges work in your cylinder chambers allowing for good powder compression? If it does, then why add filler? i.e. - if you use say 18 gr. of 3F and your chamber gives plenty of compression when you seat the ball - then you could try the same in a paper cartridge. If you are planning on loading "mouse fart" loads - it's not going to work with powder only in the paper cartridge as you won't get the proper compression/ball seating since there should be no space between the powder and ball.

Most paper cartridges are rolled on a "tapered" dowel for a form - the taper "tail" allowing for easy insertion into the chamber. If your powder load is sufficient to insure that when loaded there is not space between powder and ball (normal loading compresses the powder load) then instead of using the length shown in the video - make your form shorter and your cartridge shorter.

If your powder load is not sufficient to allow for a normal compressed load, then you'd have to use a filler - i.e. corn meal or wad. Again, I would worry about what maillemaker speaks of in regards to the filler and powder getting mixed together in terms of normal handling, jostling, etc.

That doesn't mean that using a filler won't work and there may be those that do use it. If it was me and a filler was needed, I'd make a half dozen of them up and give them a "jostling" test. I don't know where/how you shoot but bear in mind, cartridges in a range box riding in a vehicle to a range can get a lot of jostling - so can those carried in a pouch while hiking, etc. If the powder and filler get mixed together - an example would be taking a tablespoon of BP and a tablespoon of corn meal, putting it in a bowl and shaking them until they mix - you aren''t going to get consistent loads - if the combination goes off.

Cartridges are not a bad idea and lots of folks have done it. I think you just need to experiment a little to see what happens to the mix of the two (BP and CM) in conjunction to the load you want to use and what your chambers require to give you a good compressed load. Metallic BP cartridges aren't any different and that's why many use over the powder wads in them on reduced loads - they allow a "compressed" load. The important thing to remember that is important is that you want no air space between BP and projectile - that can be very bad and cause some unpleasant results.

Good luck and let us know what you end up with - have fun and be safe!

oldknotty · May 8, 2014, 09:27 AM

Thanks for all the advice guys ,I am brand new to this hobby and i am still learning .I shoot at an indoor range with two 44 cal Pietta pistols .They do not allow loaded magazines or such to be carried in so you have to load your guns on the range .I thought that if i could make some paper cartridges that it would cut down my loading time and save on the mess if I get clumsy ( which at my age i am very prone to do ) !!!! I watched a video on you tube by boom1850 and he makes it look so easy !! Everything in one small package ready to go !! so i thought I would like to try it but seeing as i don't want to use that big of a load i was wondering if I could add a filler ??
Oldknotty

Magnum Wheel Man · May 8, 2014, 09:47 AM

so... I'm corn fused...

the paper cartridges we're talking about you're just tearing open, & dumping the powder??? or are you biting the end off, & actually putting the paper in ( or does the paper rupture enough that it fires fine in paper...

if the ball / bullet has to be rammed home anyway, why use any filler ??? or is the "chamber" not rifled & you get poor accuracy if the ball is in too far???

sorry... just starting to get into black powder brass cased loading, so I'm trying to understand paper...

FIL had plastic / glass tubes, that he pre-measured powder charges into, but didn't use paper

maillemaker · May 8, 2014, 11:50 AM

Quote:

When the slug (or conical) is then pressed into the case past the driving ring, it compresses and fixes the powder/filler column.

It looks like oldknotty is talking about revolver cartridges here, which is what I'm assuming. I don't know anything about sharps cartridges, but I don't think revolver cartridges are stout enough to press a bullet into and compress powder and filler to the point that they won't mix.

Quote:

so... I'm corn fused...

the paper cartridges we're talking about you're just tearing open, & dumping the powder??? or are you biting the end off, & actually putting the paper in ( or does the paper rupture enough that it fires fine in paper...

if the ball / bullet has to be rammed home anyway, why use any filler ??? or is the "chamber" not rifled & you get poor accuracy if the ball is in too far???

sorry... just starting to get into black powder brass cased loading, so I'm trying to understand paper...

FIL had plastic / glass tubes, that he pre-measured powder charges into, but didn't use paper

According to Round Ball to Rimfire, originally revolver cartridges were much like musket cartridges: Little paper cylinders that contained the powder and the ball, and you tore off the tail to access the powder which was dumped into a chamber, then you removed the ball and pressed it in also.

This was noted as being tricky because it was hard to get the powder to go into the cylinder you were aiming for.

Soon they developed "combustible paper cartridges" for the revolvers. These were paper, foil, or gut tubes wrapped and formed on a conical mandrel, which were filled with powder and then a bullet glued in place to cap them off. These were inserted whole into the chamber and then rammed down into place. Upon firing the body of the cartridge was, in theory, consumed.

This video gives a nice overview of a modern reproduction method:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2HUcfAyaaQ

You will notice that in the video Balázs also says you can put filler in the cartridge. I suppose if you can push the bullet firmly enough, and if[ you don't shake your cartridges too much, then you may get away with it.

My own experience with loose filler was when I poured in the powder and then some filler but not enough filler so that the ball bottomed out on the filler. Consequently there was loose powder and filler in my chamber under the ball, and they mixed during firing.

It's possible my concerns are unfounded, but personally if I was going to make under-strength paper cartridges I would use wadding as a filler as there is no way for it to mix with the charge.

Here is a picture of a period cartridge:

Steve

gunslinger2000 · May 8, 2014, 01:17 PM

Been muzzle loading since 1968. Doing living history.... Rev War, Civil War, mountain man era. Used paper cartridges with muskets and single shot pistols, I personally found them to be of more bother than they were worth for revolvers. A second cylinder is much more efficient. gunslinger

noelf2 · May 12, 2014, 12:58 PM

Quote:

I personally found them to be of more bother than they were worth for revolvers.

+1

maillemaker · May 15, 2014, 08:15 AM

It just depends on what kind of experience you are going for. If you want to experience period shooting to its fullest, use period ammunition.

Steve

DD4lifeusmc · May 23, 2014, 01:14 PM

Been making them for a few years but each has to do what works for them.
Have mine pretty down pat.
Sometimes at the table sometimes in the recliner.
Make fill and tie.
Store them in a small container.
I leave the prjectile off.
Slip one in the chamber and then press in the projectile and cap.
Pretty simple for me.

May 7, 2014, 06:10 PM	#1
oldknotty Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Location: Norwood Ohio Posts: 90	paper cartridges I am planning on having a go at making my own paper cartridges after seeing a fellow on You Tube do it with cigarette papers and glue .My question is , if i do not wish to make the same powerful charge that he does , can i top the cartridge off with corn meal , grits or some such stuff ?? Thanks old knotty

May 7, 2014, 07:59 PM	#2
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	Yes. N-SSA shooters do exactly that. In fact as much as half or more of the (paper) case may be cornmeal for my 50-yard/Buffalo-slug loads. Last edited by mehavey; May 7, 2014 at 08:05 PM.

May 7, 2014, 09:04 PM	#5
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,896	Note that in the instructions above, it takes sufficient cornmeal to totally fill the case above the powder. When the slug (or conical) is then pressed into the case past the driving ring, it compresses and fixes the powder/filler column. It works, and easily withstands rough skirmish line activity during even rushed loading/reloading and grab-bag carbine cartridge box handling. Trust me. . Last edited by mehavey; May 7, 2014 at 09:11 PM.

May 8, 2014, 08:44 AM	#6
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	I think maillemaker has some good thoughts on that. If you make the cartridges and they get a lot of "jostling" - you could end up with the filler mixing with the powder and get the results he is talking about. oldknotty - there are several things you don't mention in your post. What caliber and what charge are you talking about? You mention you don't want to make as strong of a load as in the video - what charge are you planning on using? I ask this for a reason. In my Navies (36 cal) I shoot anywhere from 18gr to 22 gr of FFFG with a over the powder wad and round ball. Do you use an over the powder wad? What charge are you going to use? If you don't use a wad (some folks don't) - does your "normal charge" that you want to use in the cartridges work in your cylinder chambers allowing for good powder compression? If it does, then why add filler? i.e. - if you use say 18 gr. of 3F and your chamber gives plenty of compression when you seat the ball - then you could try the same in a paper cartridge. If you are planning on loading "mouse fart" loads - it's not going to work with powder only in the paper cartridge as you won't get the proper compression/ball seating since there should be no space between the powder and ball. Most paper cartridges are rolled on a "tapered" dowel for a form - the taper "tail" allowing for easy insertion into the chamber. If your powder load is sufficient to insure that when loaded there is not space between powder and ball (normal loading compresses the powder load) then instead of using the length shown in the video - make your form shorter and your cartridge shorter. If your powder load is not sufficient to allow for a normal compressed load, then you'd have to use a filler - i.e. corn meal or wad. Again, I would worry about what maillemaker speaks of in regards to the filler and powder getting mixed together in terms of normal handling, jostling, etc. That doesn't mean that using a filler won't work and there may be those that do use it. If it was me and a filler was needed, I'd make a half dozen of them up and give them a "jostling" test. I don't know where/how you shoot but bear in mind, cartridges in a range box riding in a vehicle to a range can get a lot of jostling - so can those carried in a pouch while hiking, etc. If the powder and filler get mixed together - an example would be taking a tablespoon of BP and a tablespoon of corn meal, putting it in a bowl and shaking them until they mix - you aren''t going to get consistent loads - if the combination goes off. Cartridges are not a bad idea and lots of folks have done it. I think you just need to experiment a little to see what happens to the mix of the two (BP and CM) in conjunction to the load you want to use and what your chambers require to give you a good compressed load. Metallic BP cartridges aren't any different and that's why many use over the powder wads in them on reduced loads - they allow a "compressed" load. The important thing to remember that is important is that you want no air space between BP and projectile - that can be very bad and cause some unpleasant results. Good luck and let us know what you end up with - have fun and be safe! __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

May 8, 2014, 09:47 AM	#8
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	so... I'm corn fused... the paper cartridges we're talking about you're just tearing open, & dumping the powder??? or are you biting the end off, & actually putting the paper in ( or does the paper rupture enough that it fires fine in paper... if the ball / bullet has to be rammed home anyway, why use any filler ??? or is the "chamber" not rifled & you get poor accuracy if the ball is in too far??? sorry... just starting to get into black powder brass cased loading, so I'm trying to understand paper... FIL had plastic / glass tubes, that he pre-measured powder charges into, but didn't use paper __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

May 7, 2014, 08:34 PM	#3
oldknotty Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Location: Norwood Ohio Posts: 90	Thank you Mehavey i appreciate it

May 7, 2014, 08:37 PM	#4
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I don't think a filler like that will work with paper cartridges. Here's why: Typically in N-SSA competition, I pour in the measured powder charge, then I pour in a measured filler, then seat the ball. The ball should totally compress the filler and the powder. If it doesn't, then the powder and the filler mix, resulting in a diluted, inconsistent charge, which will result in diluted, inconsistent accuracy. With every shot, the recoil mixes the remaining charges more. A paper cartridge filled with both powder and filler will not be compressed out of the gun, so naturally the powder and filler will mix together during handling. Instead, I'd use felt wads. Steve

May 8, 2014, 09:27 AM	#7
oldknotty Member Join Date: March 20, 2014 Location: Norwood Ohio Posts: 90	Thanks for all the advice guys ,I am brand new to this hobby and i am still learning .I shoot at an indoor range with two 44 cal Pietta pistols .They do not allow loaded magazines or such to be carried in so you have to load your guns on the range .I thought that if i could make some paper cartridges that it would cut down my loading time and save on the mess if I get clumsy ( which at my age i am very prone to do ) !!!! I watched a video on you tube by boom1850 and he makes it look so easy !! Everything in one small package ready to go !! so i thought I would like to try it but seeing as i don't want to use that big of a load i was wondering if I could add a filler ?? Oldknotty

May 8, 2014, 01:17 PM	#10
gunslinger2000 Member Join Date: March 5, 2014 Location: Waterloo, Iowa Posts: 66	Been muzzle loading since 1968. Doing living history.... Rev War, Civil War, mountain man era. Used paper cartridges with muskets and single shot pistols, I personally found them to be of more bother than they were worth for revolvers. A second cylinder is much more efficient. gunslinger

May 15, 2014, 08:15 AM	#12
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	It just depends on what kind of experience you are going for. If you want to experience period shooting to its fullest, use period ammunition. Steve

May 23, 2014, 01:14 PM	#13
DD4lifeusmc Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2012 Location: Wyoming Posts: 351	paper cartridge Been making them for a few years but each has to do what works for them. Have mine pretty down pat. Sometimes at the table sometimes in the recliner. Make fill and tie. Store them in a small container. I leave the prjectile off. Slip one in the chamber and then press in the projectile and cap. Pretty simple for me.