Reduced load article in handloader..

[1stmar]

I picked up a copy of handloader and was reading an article by john haviland on reduced loads for 308. Very good article with some great info. As he describes the recipes he noted the velocities and subsequent extreme spread. I have to say I was shocked at the extreme spreads especially given they were reduced loads. Again these are extreme spreads:
2 fps with w760
0 fps with h4198
12 fps with 4759
7 fps with reloader 7
3 fps red dot

Several others in the low teens.

There were others listed but these numbers seem astonishing given partial case volume. I saw no reference to the number of rounds chronod but if it was more then two this seems extremely good. He was using lead bullets as you might guess, various molds (5) and several powders ranging from red dot, tight group, clays, etc..

Have you guys seen es like this ? Great article. August edition.

[reynolds357]

I really do not believe 0, 2, or 3. I would have to see that with my own eyes.

[Sam06]

Having done a lot of reduced loads I call bs.

[Nullcone]

I'd need to see those shot in front of me, and even then I'd have my doubts...

Maybe the ES is inversely proportional to the cost of the rifle used?

[Sharkbite]

I run A LOT of subsonic 308. Trailboss is my go to powder ( not listed ). Ive never had ES's that low. Mid 20's is about the best ive gotten

[Bart B.]

Barreled actions hard mounted or rifles shot in total free recoil, both untouched by humans can easily get under a 5 fps spread for muzzle velocity. With the same resistance to recoil while the bullet is in the barrel and same angle of it to the bore axis being repeatable from shot to shot, its effect on muzzle velocity is repeatable.

Us humans don't hold them exactly the same from shot to shot. Those variables unequally subtract muzzle velocity numbers. Bullets leave slower and have a greater range of speeds.

Did that article state how the barreled actions were mounted; in detail? Without knowing all the details of the tests, I don't have enough facts to pass judgement on the results.

[Paul B.]

IIRC he was shooting from the bench.
Paul B.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I can believe some very low ES numbers under the proper conditions but zero? Out of how many? One?

Zero is impossible. No load under any conditions fires every single round at the exact same speed.

[Sevens]

I would also be in the skeptical camp, wondering if the chrono has the ability to measure the speed of the bullets that well.

[totaldla]

I think I'd get greater ES than that if I just let the cartridges roll off the shooting bench.

[SHR970]

If what the OP posted is correct; then we know the name of another magazine author who's statements are to be taken with a grain of salt. E.S. of 0 That is a statistical anomaly with 2 shots, with 5 a near impossibility. Someone is skiing on Bandini Mountain.

[1stmar]

August edition 291 page 54 and 55. I don't view this magazine in the same vein as say guns and ammo or shooting times, perhaps I should. But I give this rag another level of credence. The article was very timely for me and I enjoyed reading it and the rest of the magazine, enough to subscribe. But frankly, the must know the audience is experienced enough to know 0 fps, 3 fps .. Es on reduced loads no less, is not believable.

[SHR970]

And 1stmar just provided the proof that the author of the article skis on Bandini Mountain.

For those who don't get the reference

[Slamfire]

Did he not claim groups as small as 0.6 MOA with Marlin 30-30 lever actions?

I don't know where my August issue of Handloader is right now, but ES's that low are outside of my experience.

[mannyCA]

did a few videos describing my techniques, never thought to chrono them though. Always seem to hit what I was aiming at and usually made swift kills. All that matters to me!

[pathdoc]

I call typo, maybe even dropped digits. Proofreading and checking are really poor these days, even in expensive professional text books.

[green_MTman]

What would even be the point of a load that slow.wouldn't you need at least 300 fps to have a functional gun

[1stmar]

Would have to be multiple typos. Not believing 2 or 3 fos es either.

[chiefr]

Personally, I don't have much use for reduced loads even when fire forming. When fire forming, I use "start" loads. If I need less power when hunting or eliminating pests, I use a .22. Even .22 has standard velocity or CBs if you need less.

Read the article and had serious doubts. Good to see some of the posters here know BS when they read it.
IMHO, have considered Handloader the only magazine left that is worth a darn*. I quit subscribing to most of the gun magazines because of far too much hype in selling new products that just were not that great. Plus touting brands that did not work or had problems at the range.

[Slamfire]

I looked at the article this morning. The author is shooting three shot groups, as best I can tell, from the images of his targets. There is no indication of the string length in this article. Based on the three shot groups used in his 30-30 Marlin cast bullet article, and the sub MOA claims he made there, I have no reason to assume that this article is based on anything but three shot groups.

This shows a basic laziness, because it takes time to load and shoot more rounds, and a glaring lack of understanding behind the numbers that are coming up on his chronograph. Everyone can read about statistics, lots of articles, a very basic idea of statistics is how to draw inferences from data and thus how to make predictions. Three data points don’t tell you much about the population, and just because the chronograph provides an ES, standard deviation, etc, drawing galactic inferences and making big future predictions with little tiny sample sizes, just reveals the limits of the author’s education and knowledge.

Any interplanetary device designed by this guy is just as likely to hit a mountain as the moon. Maybe more so. Why then do we consider these guys as authorities?

[1stmar]

Slanfire I agree with you though I thought I saw some pics of shot groups that were bigger then 3. Normally I don't give a lot of credence to these mags and as some else mentioned I stopped by gun mags. But I have a thirst for knowledge around reloading and this mag seemed to be less commercial then the traditional g&a stuff. I thought it was a step above. Maybe not.

[Paul B.]

There were comments made on a different article by Mr. Haviland that apparently made him unhappy. I got the impression that if he and the author ever met face to face there would be a fight. I got the impression he did not take too kindly to criticism. Wonder how he'd react to the comments in this thread.
I've only had one rifle give really low ES figures, a .375 Taylor and they were from full power loads. Did it more than once too.
Paul B.

[Slamfire]

A different tack, why not post your own cast bullet chronograph data, and then we can see, based on what is posted, whether extreme spreads less than 10 are realistic.

Of the cast bullet loads I have tried, AA5744 gives me the lowest ES's and SD's. For the 308 Win, I only had to shoot five rounds to determine that a 12" X 12" group at 100 yards was so bad, that no further data points were needed.

Overall, I have had nothing but frustration with cast bullets. Nice ES's though.

308 Win M1A Douglas 1:10" Barrel				
				
173 gr Lyman 311041 GC sized .310 Lyman #2 alloy
24.0 grs AA5744 CCI#34  OAL 2.515 Mixed cases 

28 Sept 2008 T =  80 °F		
				
Ave Vel =1934			
Std Dev =14			
ES =	17			
High =	1951			
Low =	1934			
N =	5			
				
awful, 12" X 12" group. Nothing in center. 


30-06 M1903A3 Remington two groove barrel	
							
205 gr .310" sized 311299 mold Gas Check		 		
25.0 grs AA5744 WLR PS74  OAL 3.290"				
							
11-Sep-06	T = 90 °F						
		 					
Ave Vel =	1738					 	
Std Dev =	21						
ES =	59						
High =	1770						
Low =	1711						
N =	10	 	

303 British No. 4 MkII 				
						
200 gr  Lyman 314299 GC sized .313" Lyman #2 alloy	
26.0 grs AA5744 WLR OAL 3.00" HP70 cases trimmed 2.20"	
28 Sept 2008 T =  78 °F				
						
Ave Vel =	1899					 
Std Dev =	14					 
ES =	48					
High =	1923					
Low =	1875					
N =	12					
						
Awful group, all over the place. 				
						
						
200 gr  Lyman 314299 GC sized .313" Lyman #2 alloy	
27.0 grs AA5744 WLR OAL 3.00" HP70 cases trimmed 2.20"	
28 Sept 2008 T =  78 °F				
						
Ave Vel =	1944				 	
Std Dev =	14				 	
ES =	48				 	
High =	1961				 	
Low =	1913				 	
N =	10					
						
Awful group, all over the place. 	

There were comments made on a different article by Mr. Haviland that apparently made him unhappy.

I went out and shot at least three hundred rounds of jacketed 30-30 and the best 10 shot group I get, at 100 yards, is 2.0 inches. Never tried to replicate the group so it might be a fluke. Next best was closer to 3.0".

And this author, goes out with 150 gr bullets in the 30-30, shoots three shot groups, and claims sub MOA groups at 100 yards.

Maybe he was given a better Marlin than what I could buy.

Or maybe something else was going on.

[1stmar]

Slamfire check that es on the m1a load..it's equal to your low velocity. Es should be 17. How's that m1a w a Douglas shoot?

[Slamfire]

Slamfire check that es on the m1a load..it's equal to your low velocity. Es should be 17. How's that m1a w a Douglas shoot?

Spreadsheet had the wrong formula in the cell.

These M1a's shoot well with jacketed.

100 yards, prone RF,



100 yards, load testing, using a rest