Short Range Rifle Ballistics: Personal Choice? Numbers? Experience? 50 yards and in

[stonewall50]

Just curious how many of you have witnessed and/or done some studies on short range rifle ballistics. I know that rifles are usually meant for ranged work, but I am curious if you have ever analyzed shooting inside of 50.

All things considered...what calibers would you like to use and shoot inside of 50 for a rifle/Carbine?


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[CDR_Glock]

If I'm limited to 50 yards, I use a 22 LR, 22 Magnum.

I will zero for a Battle Zero at 50, but that's too close for any more expensive rifle ammunition for me.


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[RoughDivider]

I'd just go with a 5.56. A .357 or .44 mag carbine would probably be good too.

[stonewall50]

Originally Posted by RoughDivider

I'd just go with a 5.56. A .357 or .44 mag carbine would probably be good too.

See that is something I've been wondering about. Limiting the range changes the dynamics. I mean this is the whole premise of "brush guns." I have a friend who is looking around for a new hog rifle. He has some big ones and we had this discussion. When they are shooting them in the fields his BAR .308 is fine. But they use a mini14 when they go into the woods. Sometimes just a .357 mag.

Personally? Love the 7.62x39 mm that the sks shoots. And it is fun. But idk of the performance difference matters at 50 yards or less lol


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[jmr40]

Are you talking about hunting, or personal defense? When hunting I use the same rifle regardless of whether I'm expecting shots at 4 yards or 400. Usually a 308. It isn't handicapped in the least up close, but many traditional "brush gun" cartridges certainly are at longer ranges.

The exact cartridge isn't really important, the rifle can be. A shorter, lighter rifle with moderate recoil is a plus. But even at only 50 yards pinpoint accuracy can be a huge advantage. There is no bullet ever made that will shoot through brush without deflecting. But a tack driving accurate rifle can shoot through baseball size openings in brush at 50 yards to hit a game animal while avoiding the brush.

[stonewall50]

Originally Posted by jmr40

Are you talking about hunting, or personal defense? When hunting I use the same rifle regardless of whether I'm expecting shots at 4 yards or 400. Usually a 308. It isn't handicapped in the least up close, but many traditional "brush gun" cartridges certainly are at longer ranges.



The exact cartridge isn't really important, the rifle can be. A shorter, lighter rifle with moderate recoil is a plus. But even at only 50 yards pinpoint accuracy can be a huge advantage. There is no bullet ever made that will shoot through brush without deflecting. But a tack driving accurate rifle can shoot through baseball size openings in brush at 50 yards to hit a game animal while avoiding the brush.

There have been experiments on this. There is merit to using a big heavy caliber. The bullets will deflect...sure, but you also have to question what WONT make it deflect.

And I'm considering all options and mainly talking. About ballistics at short ranges. It is just a curiosity. Does something have an edge at 50 yards? I doubt I will ever shoot st something beyond 300. My eyesight is fine, but most places I hunt are limited. And I can see no practical application of me shooting 300 yards in self defense. 50? 100? Maybe.


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[ShootistPRS]

Limiting the range to 50 yards as a maximum would put the magnum pistol rounds in good standing. (especially from an 18" carbine) The 762x39 SHOULD work but it is a 123 grain bullet and with moderate sized critters it might be a bit light. It's not that pigs are particularly tough but they can be "single minded" when upset. A 30-30 with heavy lead bullets at 1200 - 1500 would also shine.
You have lots of choices to pick from and not all of them have been mentioned.

[jmr40]

There have been experiments on this. There is merit to using a big heavy caliber.

You are misinterpreting the results of the tests. Pointed bullets have most of the weight in the rear of the bullet. Round nose bullets have the weight more evenly distributed along the entire length of the bullet.

A round nose bullet with more weight forward is deflected LESS when it contacts brush. A pointed bullet will deflect MORE after striking brush and is more likely to begin to tumble. Bullet caliber and velocity have nothing to do with it. A 150 gr RN fired from a 270 at 3000 fps will fare just as well in brush as 405 gr 45-70 bullet fired at 1800 fps. A 150 gr pointed bullet fired at 3000 fps will deflect slightly more All perform poorly after striking anything. If there is more than a few feet between where the bullet contacts brush and the animal you're going to miss with any of them.

The best approach is to avoid hitting brush. A typical 357 or 44 mag will be as much as 4-5" above or below the line of sight at 50-100 yards. Out in the open at those ranges it isn't much of a handicap to hit a deer size animal. But when you have to thread a bullet with that much arc on it through brush the odds of striking tree limbs in between is pretty good.

A modern accurate rifle such as 243, any of the 6.5mm's, up to 308 will keep the bullet no more than 1/2" above or below line of sight out to about 130ish yards and is of no handicap up close.

Most shots taken at close range are also taken in poor light at dawn or dusk. Actually in thick woods it can be too dark to shoot with irons long before sundown on cloudy days. A quality scope not only allow the precision to shoot through the openings, it makes it far easier shoot in poor light.

Caliber is pretty irrelevant. Pick a lightweight, handy, short barreled, accurate rifle and put a good quality scope on it and you have the ultimate close range deer/hog/bear hunting rifle.

Something like this. With an 18" barrel it is more compact than a 30-30 lever action and even with the scope on it is 3/4 lb lighter than a 30-30 with just irons. It costs about $100 less too. If I wanted to make it more better I could load 180-200 gr round nose bullets in it and get the same effect as any traditional "brush gun". But I use pointed 165 gr bullets and just shoot through the holes in the brush

[Mobuck]

Not sure where this is going. I've shot deer and bear as close as 10' with rounds up to 30/06 and the damage is totally devastating. Ballistics?? A ton of bullet energy dumped into a 200# animal is rough stuff.

[john in jax]

Like others mentioned above, I choose one rifle I am confident with at 20, 50 or 200 yards. Mine happens to be a .308. Big heavy bullets moving at high velocity are effective at long ranges and even more effective at short ranges.

BUT this is a hard lesson to learn. I tricked out a Ruger Mini-30 to exactly where I wanted it. Built it to be my perfect "brush gun"! But every time I loaded the truck to go hunting, the Mini-30 got left at home and my .308 accompanied me into the woods.

Later on I picked up an immaculate Marlin 1894 in .44mag. You see when I head out into the woods I almost always carry a .44mag revolver on my hip. I was just in gun-lust with idea of beating the brush and/or stalking with the .44mag revolver on my hip and the .44mag lever action in my hands. I never took that .44 to the woods, not even once.

There are lots and lots of rounds that are effective at +/-50 yards, but why not go high-powered rifle so you are just as effective at +/-150 yards?

[taylorce1]

Ruger is selling a .450 Bushmaster in the American Ranch. Should be very useful for short range hunting.

[old roper]

Here in Co, lot hunt the dark timber and depend 50 yds could be long shot. I'll hunt the edges of it but none of my hunting rifles would be ideal beyond that.

Mostly get elk/deer in that. Me I get one of the Browning BLR has open sight and 20" barrel for that.

[T. O'Heir]

Like jmr40 says, what you're doing with it matters. Still hard to beat a .30 Carbine with an SP or HP out to 50 yards. Except for a 12 or 20 gauge slug and rifle sights.
Mind you, the whole thing is more about the rifle/firearm itself than the cartridge. Long barrels tend to not swing right up close. At 50 yards, you'll be making very fast shots at beasties moving fast their ownselves. Usually.
"...The 7.62 x 39 SHOULD work..." Will work with the right bullet. Still about what work it's being expected to do. No fuss dropping a deer with the right bullet(and rifle). Not so much a Cape Buffalo. snicker.

[Oliver Sudden]

I'm fond of the 50 Sharps for close up work. 475 grain bullet and 110 grains of ffg stopped this fellow at about 20 steps.

[bamaranger]

The brush rifle, and brush rifle cartridges are one of those topics that have been debated many times, and will continue to fuel hunt club arguements and online forums. We typically cannot predict where and how we see game, and limiting ourselves to a short range only type firearm limits our chance for success on some hunts. But, if there are conditions where short range will indeed by the circumstances, I'm thinking bayed hogs, treed cats,
then a brush rifle would be acceptable.

The brush "rifle" needs to be short and light for a couple of reasons. (no offense intended for the fella with the .50 Sharps) One is you've got to get the rifle through the brush. Long barreled rifles (and shotguns) are a pain to get through thick stuff, either in hand or slung. Which brings up the next point....if your hunting in the brush, just not covering ground but expecting to get a shot on foot, you will need the rifle in your hands, not slung. A lighter gun will carry easier, in hand, over the long haul.

I think a brush rifle needs the capability for a fast repeat shot. Whether hunting rutting bucks, that can flash through a crossing while chasing a doe, or game driven by hounds or an ill tempered hog, we do miss, or hit limbs , stuff happens. The ability for a quick second shot is then fully appreciated. I'm not talking about unethical shots or blazing away randomly, simply saying that there are occasions where a quick follow up is advantageous. For me, that puts the bolt rifle in last place. I consider myself an able rifleman, but cannot run a conventional bolt as fast as I can deliver aimed repeat shots with a semi, pump, or lever, likely in that order.

I have seen video of the Euro folks shooting boar with straight pull bolts.....but that is another story. Have you noticed that most of that type of shooting seems to be done done down shooting lanes or on field edges, locations with defined and open fields of fire? They often do it with full size rifles, but are likely dropped at the stands by vehicle, and often shoot from elevated and clear platforms. Just not the same as sidehilling a hardwood ridge all morning below a pine plantation, looking for for a whitetail returning to bed.

Sights....50 yds and in is darn close, if I were not such an old school guy, I'd say that a red dot, a good one, would be the sight of choice. I still have a hard time accepting batteries on my firearms, but do realize that the military and competitive shooting has pretty much proven the dot sight...it's just me.
After that, a low powered variable with a big bold reticle. My brush rifles have 1-4x scopes w/ German #1's on them.

The cartridge? That's the fly in the ointment. I have no belief at all that I can chop through brush to get a predictable, killing shot on a deer with any caliber. I suppose if you compare extremes (say .17 Rem v. 45-70), through thin cover like a a screen of sage right next to your animal, you can make the arguement. But typical deer calibers are going to deflect and deform when encountering an limb of any size, and your point of impact will be random, and the closer to the muzzle, the worse the problem. I can accept a moderate cartridge for my hunting, which is typically from climbing stands, in woodlands, and ranges are short, though they will go over 50, they are almost always under 100. I know where I will hunt an on most any given outing, and in the very rare instances when I hunt on large food plots from shooting house or box blinds, or on open ROWs, I simply take a bigger rifle.
Typically, I'll keep a spare rifle in the truck anyhow, and usually it's GP in nature, often the .308 Savage Hog.

My dedicated brush/treestand rifles? Most often, a vintage Ruger .44 carbine (tube feed). Another is a Mini30. Both have the 1-4x mentioned. The .44 is so short and light it will spoil you. Terrible trigger, so-so accuracy, but over the years very reliable, and is grim death inside 100 yds. Most of the venison it's collected has been well under half that distance. The Mini30 is a tad heavier but falls into the same category.

[NHSHOOTER]

I will have to chime in, I am a bolt hunter and last Sunday I went to the club I joined recently and on Sundays they have a running deer shoot. There is a cable driven target run from right to left at 50 yds, I did the shoot several times with my bolt rifle, 7-08 and 243, I did as well as some of the semi shooters and not as good as 1 of em. I might add, you get 3 shots as the deer "runs" across.

[Art Eatman]

Cartridges such as the '06 don't become less effective at 50 yards, but otherwise-ineffective or marginal cartridges can become useful.

Looks to me as though energy at impact, penetration, and bullet behavior (expansion, e.g.) are the primary factors.

[Deaf Smith]

My Trapper 30/30 has just a Williams aperture sight. Using LeverRevoution power it gets an honest 2150 fps from that 16 inch tube using 170gr flatnose.

I just set the sight for 50 yards and it's good to past 125. In heavy woods all I have to do is aim right on the money. And since the sights are low to the bore, I can just put the bullets right where I aim!

Deaf

[bacardisteve]

At close range bullet construction plays a bigger part than caliber. More so for high velocity cartridges. Use something like a ballistic tip or sst above 2500fps or so at 50yds and you will make a mess of things.

[Art Eatman]

Make a mess? The last deer I killed with my '06 was at no more than twenty or so yards. The bullet blew up--in his neck. Neck meat is kinda low on the list of My Favorite Venison.

[rickyrick]

No studies, but my hunting and other experience has shown me that most center fire rifle ammo can be intensely damaging and sometimes surprising. They sometimes behave in unpredictable ways. I know that I don't want to be on the receiving end of a 303brit at close range.

[Duster340]

I use my Bubba-ized No4Mk1, 17-1/4" barrel 303 British. The max realistic hunting/shooting range on our parcel is 50-60 yards, thick cedar wetlands, dense hardwoods etc. The stubby little 303 carbine certainly gets the job done with adequate authority

[Tinbucket]

This would take about thirty pages to cover, all the variety of guns and ammo.
Preference and game and range to be hunted.
If there is bear on the list or a possibility and you don't won't to destroy a deer, a 45.70 was used for many decades.
Marlin, Mossberg, and others and the .444 too.
There are now carbines handling stiff loads off .45 Colt and longer higher pressure .45 rounds.
A .44 Ruger carbine, in you can find one for shorter ddistances
Also the .30-30 and .32 special and a variety of other rounds.
The 94 is easy in the hands and light and 7 rounds quickly available take anything including black bear and more range with the new polymer tipped rounds.
A Remington 600 in .308 or .358 mag, if you can find one. It weight scant ore than my .44 Ruger handgun in seems in hand.
Any gun that is your favorite carry, with a good center fire rifle caliber of .30 or above will do the deed. However if there is Griz around you might want to stock to the .45-70 and larger rounds.

[Picher]

There's nothing you can't fix with 300 bucks and a 30-06. However, a .308 and a 2-7x Leupold helps. Shooting in the woods/brush is often more successful if you have a low-powered scope that can be turned up to see gaps to put a bullet in the critter and not a tree.

Besides, a .30 caliber deer bullet will shoot through a 3" tree and kill the deer standing behind it. Don't try it with a .223.

JP

[Husqvarna]

bamaranger

even in those big driven hunts there are guys mushing thru the bush, with short carbine type rifles. preferably in something heavy, with heavy for the calibre bullets because as the dog men they won't have longshots

the blaser r93 is very very common, have one short barrel with an aimpoint and a longer heavier barrel for the few times you get to stand in the blind and be "served" with the animals

me I am on a budget I have a brownig BLR in 358win

I very seldom shot when doing one of those big hunts because I am invited to be the dogman not the hunter, but as money doesn't buy class some of those blindhunters are trigger happy not all hit game stays down and I get to finish it, , and wounded game seldom lays down in the open