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Old December 20, 2017, 10:49 AM   #51
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I do not think it prudent to take the time to reassess after two shots in a defensive encounter.
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Old December 20, 2017, 12:30 PM   #52
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That doctrine was one to mitigate the bad PR from multiple gun shots. Waiting to see if your opponent is still capable of doing your harm will let you discover that said opponent is doing you harm, it would seem to me.

Of course, there are cases where the opponent is clearly disabled and the shooter continues to blast away, then the latter is in legal trouble as you shoot to stop.

There's really no set rule, you have to evaluate the opponent's action as compared to having a 'rule'. Are they still in the threat? Does this mean you take a mandated pause or is it done in parallel with your actions?
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Old December 20, 2017, 01:41 PM   #53
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There's really no set rule, you have to evaluate the opponent's action as compared to having a 'rule'.
And for that reason, training for one set response may lead to a defender acting in the same manner whether or not it is effective, and whether or not it constitutes excessive force.

Better to vary the number of shots in training.

That's not from any expertise I have, but it is based upon the way human beings react to stressful situations, as described by Rob Pincus.
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Old December 20, 2017, 04:46 PM   #54
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My people were in a real world where the training was unfortunately tested by anti social individuals. I doubt we had an officer read Pinicus but we certainly had them survive in shooting incidents.
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Old December 20, 2017, 08:15 PM   #55
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I doubt we had an officer read Pinicus but we certainly had them survive in shooting incidents.
And afterward, they recommend pausing after two shots to see what's up?
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Old December 20, 2017, 09:04 PM   #56
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And afterward, they recommend pausing after two shots to see what's up?
That's funny! Based on conversations with the officers I know, and every dash cam video I've ever seen, the two shot rule is not that popular when stopping a bad guy with a gun. They are assessing as they go and stop shooting when the threat is stopped.

My current method is two center mass and one to the head as fast as I can stay on target when shooting a B 27 target. Most of the time though I am shooting as fast as I can keep three rounds in a 5" circle. Add any movement to the equation and that 5" circle or human head target becomes far more challenging. I haven't been shooting as much lately, and I can say with certainty that all of this is easier talked about than done with a pistol in hand.

For the record, Rob Pincus is one of the trainers I respect the most, and I have not met him in person. His videos should be watched repeatedly by anyone who carries a gun.
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Old December 21, 2017, 12:40 PM   #57
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do not think it prudent to take the time to reassess after two shots in a defensive encounter
being alert, receptive and cognizant of the effects that your [use of force] is having [in the moment] is not really rocket science. Of course you do not arbitrarily halt your efforts but a lawful use of force should not be devoid of common sense measurement regarding the application method and duration.
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Old December 22, 2017, 07:23 AM   #58
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The use of the double tap, two rounds fired quickly, is to be best used as a multiple target threat, say, two bad guys. Or three.

You are more accurate when firing twice than once where more than one threat
is presented.

Try this, put up three IDPA targets, a yard apart, stand 5 yards away. Draw and fire, one round on each, as fast as you can, do this three times.

Patch the holes, repeat, but two rounds on each this time!

Notice your hits, by comparing the patches, to the new hits.
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Old December 22, 2017, 10:47 AM   #59
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Try this, put up three IDPA targets, a yard apart, stand 5 yards away. Draw and fire, ....
That will illustrate something about shooting at three stationary targets a yard apart, the locations of which are known in advance to the defender, who knows that he will draw and fire upon the signal.

I would not consider that to represent a realistic defensive scenario.

Better: the defender's attention is drawn to someone approaching and probably asking for something, and possibly suspicious. A previously unnoticed attacker moves in from a different angle. The defender must draw, and will probably shoot the second person.

What next? Who knows?

One can try this with Simunitions in FoF scenarios. Best to vary the scenarios, and to include some that do not result in the need to use deadly force.

I think it likely that the defender will quickly learn that the idea of trying a head shot at close range against a moving attacker is a very high risk, low return gambit.

How many shots to fire? That will depend upon what unfolds, and it should not be drummed into one's routine through choreographed exercises.
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Old December 22, 2017, 09:55 PM   #60
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That will illustrate something about shooting at three stationary targets a yard apart, the locations of which are known in advance to the defender, who knows that he will draw and fire upon the signal.

I would not consider that to represent a realistic defensive scenario.
I agree... it is essentially a choreographed dance that you could do blindfolded after a few times. You can get good at it but it don't make you a gunfighter.
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Old December 23, 2017, 09:53 PM   #61
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Gentlemen, you have missed the whole impact of my post!

This exercise I have set up a few times. And what it proves, over, and over.

Is this, when you fire once and move to the next target, and the third, as fast as you can, your brain, at speed, wants to fire more quickly.
Unfortunately, this invariably has off centre hits, it appears you want to rush your trigger presses, so your hits are released too quickly. On the first, second or third.

Firing two at a time? It seems, that the second shot is anchored by the first.

That is all I wish to show! Oh, let me make fun of an idea? Shure, why not.
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Old December 23, 2017, 10:02 PM   #62
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One thing I noticed in all the descriptions is that the 'target' always seems to be square on to you for two in the nice center and one in the face that faces you.

Ever think the target may not be in that position for your nice two and evaluate? Took a class on 3D anatomy of shooting. In FOF, we shot at what was available. My, my you were bladed at me, so what to shoot? Oh, you just stuck your leg out of cover, do I wait for the classic B-27 pose or do I hose your inner thigh?

One run, I end on the ground, the opponent was over me. Thus, I put a nice J frame full of 'rounds' into his upper thigh and groin.
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Old December 23, 2017, 11:19 PM   #63
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Firing two at a time? It seems, that the second shot is anchored by the first.
Works for a stationary target.
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Old December 24, 2017, 07:00 PM   #64
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I'd say practice 7 yards and closer for self defense. Learn to shoot without using the sights. If you have a range that will allow hip firing, practice that too. Always double tap center mass.
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Old December 25, 2017, 10:54 AM   #65
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I'd say practice 7 yards and closer for self defense. Learn to shoot without using the sights. If you have a range that will allow hip firing, practice that too.
Good advice, with emphasis on "and closer".

Quote:
Always double tap center mass.
I would be concerned that practicing dupable taps would lead a defender to pause after firing twice, when three or four or more rapid shots may well be necessary.
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Old December 25, 2017, 10:51 PM   #66
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"Shot placement" ?????

I have to start with a military (1968.1969) experience or two condensed into this post.

I DO/CAN NOT remember aiming my weapon (M14...others had M16s) in any "close quarter" situation. I am talking 20-30 ish yards as I never experienced combat much less than that. And that was too close. My tipped hat and my salute and my never ending admiration to/for those that did it practically every day!

Throwing as much lead as possible in a somewhat general direction (combined with others) from my experience seemed to rule the few moments it was necessary...Thankfully.

I can not remember aiming at anything other than in training and I grew up hunting and was decent enough that I was asked if I wanted to go to sniper school which I declined.

Keep in mind that there was a good deal of firepower coming from my folks and me.

As good as I could be (back then) with a rifle in a shot placement/precision shooting situation, that went out the window when faced with the immediate stress of kill or be
killed situation.

I have often wondered how I would react if met with a civilian situation where I had to shoot or kill another human. Would I hesitate and get my own bass or a loved one killed or would I revert to training under fire that may have saved mine and other lives.

It took me thirty years or so to even be close to a gun without being sick to my stomach.

A couple of instances (attempted car jacking by two thugs and a perp walking into an unlocked apartment door (he was drunk) made me think about a gun and being able to shoot another human. I decided that I could shoot another human and got my first gun since the mid 1960s. That was in the early 2000s.

I can go to a gun range (or my back yard pistol range) and shoot with pretty good precision and decent accuracy (EXCEPT FOR THAT SHIELD 40/9). However, there is no stress or convulsive shooting in shooting peacefully in a controlled environment.

Under stress of life threatening situations can I (or you) shoot good shot placement to stop an assailant??

Most of us go to the range and practice aiming and trying to shoot with precision and accuracy and that IS a rewarding experience every time we do it and if we do not we go back to the range and try to get better.

Many of us practice handling a weapon to "stop" an assailant.

But under the stress of kill or be killed how do we react or react. I doubt any of us normal folks know. Even those of us who have experienced it.

Do not get me wrong, practice and practice of many shooting situations is great training.

BUT, if you are in that situation, will you grip your weapon differently, will you remember to point the weapon (aiming at close quarters is too timely) , will you forget to pull the trigger (look up the stories from the civil war where rifles were found that had 18 rounds in the barrel and the trigger was never pulled). Can you handle the weapon when the assailant has pushed you back. And a bunch of other situations.

Stress of those type of situations can make one very cloudy as to what they do or think they do.

Precise shot placement goes out the window for most folks. Most situations in a self defense mode means shooting with one hand very close up (closer than I ever experienced). You will not have time to think about it and if you do, it is quite possible that your thinking days will have been done.

At the risk of redundancy, can you shoot another human and, if so, will your shot placement be precise.

What do "they" say?....Stop the threat and can you or I do that under a stressful situation?

Sorry if my rambling is inarticulate! In researching possible improvements in my own degrading shooting abilities brought on by older age and arthritis and other physical ailments I have questioned my own abilities to "stop the threat"! Still very enjoyable trying to shoot!
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Old December 27, 2017, 09:49 AM   #67
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Shot placement requires two things that are simple to describe but more difficult to execute:

1) Reliably indexing your weapon to the target in a consistent manner
2) Trigger control so you don't yank the indexed weapon off target

The reason pistols have sights is because that is a reliable, combat-proven way to index a pistol to a target. Buy yourself one of the laser training cartridges and practice working from the holster at home (with a safe backstop). You'll soon learn what works and what doesn't in indexing the pistol - and the laser dot will show if you are ganking the trigger as well. For training value, those are worth every penny since they allow many to practice techniques they are unable to train for at the local range.*

*But you should still find a good range and get quality training on basic defensive pistol techniques.
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Old December 27, 2017, 02:25 PM   #68
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It takes a lot more than those (2) things. You can do both of those things all day long and still miss a target.
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Old December 27, 2017, 03:27 PM   #69
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It takes a lot more than those (2) things. You can do both of those things all day long and still miss a target.
As Bart pointed out in Post # 23, the real "targets" are not viable to the naked eye.

That and the fact of movement make effective shot placement more a matter of chance than one of design.

Therefore, one should train to shoot rapidly, several times, with control.
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Old January 30, 2018, 08:26 PM   #70
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In starting my School in Toronto Canada, in 1980, the weapons used by Police, and armed Security/Armoured Vehicle Officers, at that time. Was Revolvers, all S&W Mod 64/65.

I ran that business for 25 years and was a board member of IALEFI for twenty years, 1984-2004. Double tap was the name of the game, a particular shooting, with one of my Students, he fired one round, 158g Semi-Wadcutter, .38 Special, two hands, eyes behind the sights, distance, 8 ft.

As the pistol fired, the youth armed with a broken pint glass, stopped his advance! And collapsed vertically, straight down. The heart was struck.

The round traversed the body, was found on the gurney, when the clothes were cut away. He did not fire twice as trained.
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Old February 1, 2018, 10:40 AM   #71
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No. No, no, no.

You shoot to stop a threat. Period.

You shoot what's available to you and what you can hit. The largest part of the human body is the torso. Hence, "center of mass" and why we train to hit the center of mass.

Anything less than lethal like a limb could be argued that you didn't have to injure and maim the now, potential defendant. If the case isn't cut and dry.

And God forbid you to say that you didn't mean to kill them.....


Also, bear in mind that someone hit in the femoral artery could bleed out and die in 2 minutes. Standard police response time in your area isn't even that good. Not to mention, the scene has to be cleared before medical professionals can make it to the scene.



So again I stress. You shoot to stop the threat. However many rounds it takes for the bad guy to stop doing the bad thing they're doing.
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Old February 1, 2018, 11:06 AM   #72
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I'm rather shocked to read someone that actually carries a gun would even think about aiming at the pelvis......SMH...but I've had some strange ideas about things in the past also.

Center of mass if you can see that, whatever shot if you have to take it. If you had a choice you wouldn't be shooting. This isn't some game, it's not a TV show---you, your family, your friends, the innocent around you are threatened with grave harm or death, the bad guy(s) has forced you into this, he wanted it, you are shooting to stop him. If you were Superman or Gandalf things would be different but you aren't.

My training came from the training officer of a sheriff's department, he emphasized "two shots to chest, if he doesn't go down, assume body armor or drugs, then aim for computer" as he marked an "X" on the target's forehead.

I have shot a lot of NRA Action Pistol matches, double tap is what we did then and double tap is how I practice now. I may end up going a mag dump but I expect the bad guy can count on at least two doses.

I began carrying pepper spray 18 years ago for those threats that didn't require a bullet just yet. I can say pepper spray is very good at encouraging an apparently unarmed aggressor to back off, without being sprayed.

As to distance, DON'T LET SHADY PEOPLE GET THAT CLOSE. It's OK to tell people "that's far enough, what do you need?" It really throws panhandlers off their game and makes them think you're a police officer. You are definitely something different, that's for sure. Most shootings occur at arm's length, so practice the speed rock. Practice more being alert, not on your phone, Ipad, Iphone, get the headphones off and earbuds out, keep your head on a swivel. See people before they see you, get into that habit. Bad guys target based on who looks the most distracted and least confident.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/arti.../marked-mayhem

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Old February 1, 2018, 06:14 PM   #73
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As Bart pointed out in Post # 23, the real "targets" are not viable to the naked eye.

That and the fact of movement make effective shot placement more a matter of chance than one of design.

Therefore, one should train to shoot rapidly, several times, with control.
I re-read #23... I do not disagree with what he is saying there
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