Hostile situation. Bad guy has a friend at gun point?

David spargenator · January 31, 2014, 11:48 PM

If there was a bad guy that had your brother at gun point. And the bad guy was right behind him holding him in a headlock. What would you do if you have a pistol and a cell phone in your pocket that day? The bad guy says that he'll shoot your brother and you if you try to call police or try to pull a gun on him. And even if you did get a gun out of your pocket, your likely to hit your brother instead of the bad guy.

WardenWolf · January 31, 2014, 11:57 PM

"Buddy, there's only one way you're walking out of here alive. If you shoot him, you're a dead man, and you know it. Let him go, and run, and you'll live. I'll give you a 30 second head start."

leadcounsel · January 31, 2014, 11:59 PM

Um... what does he want? Probably your wallet and keys. Comply. Life isn't worth the money.

Stuck in that situation, I'd only draw/shoot when either safe, or when it appeared this was turning from robbery to execution and my hand was forced.

The best among us can't draw from concealed holster, acquire a plate sized target, and shoot accurately and safely, faster than it takes the hostage taker to squeeze the trigger and/or duck.

In addition to the real risk of you provoking the death of the hostage (which would be horrible and you'd forever live with that grief and guilt), or the real risk of him shooting you also, or the real risk of you missing and hitting the hostage... you'd be likely face criminal and civil legal problems in the event that whatever offensive actions you took resulted in innocent death/harm.

Say you draw, the hostage taker kills the hostage, you shoot and miss as he aims his gun at you while you dive for cover, and you shoot and kill an innocent person walking by... your actions would be armchair-quarterbacked at length and could result in serious criminal and/or civil suits with huge ramifications.

This is a lose-lose situation.

jason_iowa · February 1, 2014, 12:03 AM

Hypotheticals are dangerous. You do whatever it takes to get out of the situation with as many parties alive as humanly possible.

Pond, James Pond · February 1, 2014, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Um... what does he want? Probably your wallet and keys. Comply. Life isn't worth the money.

I'm inclined to agree.

If the would-be shooter has the drop on someone already, particularly someone you care for, then the stakes are way too high to do anything but as they say, especially if this is probably a robbery.

Comply, unless you have a strong indication that this person has ill intent beyond taking some valuables.

If that is the case it is impossible for me to say what I would do... create a subterfuge?
Get them to think there is someone coming behind them and use that to draw . Once you'd have drawn in that tense athmosphere, I expect there might little else available than to fire.
I don't think there would be the luxury of negotiation in that scenario..

AK103K · February 1, 2014, 08:18 AM

I agree with the "appearing" to comply and work it out, but make sure "you" are prepared as well. Practice for it ahead of time, and it wont be as scary a shot, especially if youve done it a millon times before, and know its not as tough as it might appear.

Tinner666 · February 1, 2014, 08:29 AM

Brother? No biggie. Shoot him until he drops, then shoot the bad guy. Two problems solved at once. (Collateral damage, don't ya know?)

Wife? She knows to just collapse her legs and drop, but she says she trusts me enough to not miss, that she isn't worried about it.

mehavey · February 1, 2014, 08:39 AM

I've always been amused by such bad guy situations
as shown in the foto.

At the range portrayed, with all that he's got exposed,
and the gun pointed at me instead of the victim...

AK103K · February 1, 2014, 08:44 AM

Quote:

At the range portrayed, with all that he's got exposed,
and the gun pointed at me instead of the victim...

Yea, they arent the best, but you work with what you can get.

Still, they help get your brain in the game, and beat trying to "imagine" it, while shooting at bullseyes.

mehavey · February 1, 2014, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Yea, they arent the best, but you work with what you can get.

`Story of my life...

kraigwy · February 1, 2014, 09:13 AM

Before everyone gets cocky, saying I'll do X or I'll do Y, go to the range, in a controlled Non-Stress environment and print and shoot this target.

At 15 yards, draw and shoot in less then 1 second, hitting the bad guy and not the good guy. Take in account, a miss is as bad as hitting the good guy.

http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy...0Target_1_.pdf

Before you ask, No, I can't do it using a pistol with any regularity.

AK103K · February 1, 2014, 09:59 AM

1 second from concealment at 15 yards on a target that small (they arent "life" size, right?), seems a pretty lofty aspiration.

I understand and agree with striving for better than you need to be, but I do think you need to be somewhat realistic too, otherwise youre likely just to frustrate yourself.

Drawing and shooting on a target in that situation would probably not be my first choice, although I do practice that. For me, 1 second aint a happening thing, I do know that, 2 maybe. 15 yards would be my max too, and 10 in is where most of my practice is done.

I practice a couple of different ways other than from the draw too, and none are "static". The three I do the most are from SUL, a pulled in ready, and one handed, with my arm hanging, from behind my back leg when bladed to the target.

The more you practice, the better you get, the more confidant you get, and the less likely youll be to hesitate when you need to shoot.

I do think the more realistic the target (ie "photo" type) are a better choice, as they get your brain accustomed to real people, and not just generic outlines. They also help with targeting decisions, especially from angles other than head on.

mehavey · February 1, 2014, 10:06 AM

- 55% of gunfights take place 0-5 feet.
- 20% of gunfights take place in 5-10 feet.
- 20% of gunfights take place in 10-21 feet.

Bottom Line: 95% of gunfights take place in 0-21 feet. (Source- FBI)
See also: http://www.virginiacops.org/articles...ing/combat.htm

A man's got to know his limitations.

David spargenator · February 1, 2014, 10:10 AM

Ya I've been practicing with little pocket pistols. Since that's probably what I'll havre if that happens. It would be a very difficult shot to make. Would it be better to descretely call 911?

Grizz12 · February 1, 2014, 10:34 AM

my brother is a Marine, the bad guy would be bleeding profusely long before any threats came from his mouth which in turn would give me plenty of time to draw

AK103K · February 1, 2014, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Bottom Line: 95% of gunfights take place in 0-21 feet. (Source- FBI)

I understand "the stats", and how they come by them, the only problem is "Murphy", and for me, his apparent fondness for me.

If the stats were 100%, then we could all carry a 5 shot J frame, and adhear to the rule of threes.

Personally, I think you need to practice (within reason) beyond what you plan to encounter, so if Murphy does stop by, youre in a better position to deal with things.

Quote:

A man's got to know his limitations.

Absolutely!

Just dont limit yourself trying to figure them out.

Mobuck · February 1, 2014, 10:40 AM

Throw down whatever he's asking for and back away toward cover(shooting rest). He'll look at what you dropped and probably expose more target.
I've killed coyotes and skunks at 25 yards with my carry pistol(I had a little more than 1 second but not a lot)-I can pop this guy's melon at 20'.

raimius · February 1, 2014, 09:21 PM

Quote:

A man's got to know his limitations.

VERY appropriate quote!

In that situation, I would say comply or at least give the appearance of compliance, unless and until you suspect that one of the innocent parties is about to die.

You have to realize that you'll create some movement (error or intentional), the hostage will likely move, and the bad guy will likely move. So, you've got three moving pieces and metal flying at high velocity between them. Not a sure thing!

I've seen well trained cops and government security teams drill the hostage target at 3-5 yards in training. I wouldn't want to take a similar shot unless I felt that it was the only way to prevent an innocent person from being maimed/killed.

Try something like this target...then do the same with it moving!
http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=PHT-ST

veamon · February 1, 2014, 10:01 PM

Do what you could to comply, and if things look like they're going that extra dangerous step, then reevaluate.

This kind of situation isnt hollywood, and I doubt you're as good as the movies make the heroes out to be.

9ballbilly · February 2, 2014, 08:03 AM

I'd also give the BG what he wanted as nothing in my pockets is worth a life. That said, if he was distracted by whatever I tossed his way and "presented" a clear target I'd likely shoot him as he's still a threat.

My brother is very close to 300lbs. and spent most of his life working heavy construction (steel and concrete). It's quite possible all I'd have to do is sit back and watch him turn the BG into a bloody rag doll.

All of this is, of course, armchair quarterbacking and absolutely worthless.

skoro · February 2, 2014, 08:38 AM

Unless you already have your pistol drawn and a bead on the BG, you're at a total disadvantage with no good way forward. Comply with his demands and hope for an opening or that he'll release his hostage. Fumbling around trying to get your gun unholstered and into action in that situation isn't likely to yield good results.

Jim243 · February 2, 2014, 09:03 AM

Quote:

The best among us can't draw from concealed holster, acquire a plate sized target, and shoot accurately and safely, faster than it takes the hostage taker to squeeze the trigger and/or duck.

While I don't disagree with you on what you are saying, I do disagree with this statement, and yes I can draw and shoot the BG out from behind a hostage have done it many times in IDPA matches.

Get out and try one sometime, you will see it is not as hard as you think. (it takes about 1 second)

It would however, depend on a number of other factors on if I would, but it can be done. (easy)

Jim

DT Guy · February 2, 2014, 09:48 AM

The key is-it depends. Depends on the range, the target exposed by the aggressor, what the hostage is doing, what you're armed with...

And the only real way to be able to decide (rapidly!) if you can make the particular shot you're presented with is to practice, train and test yourself until you know the shots you can, and cannot, make. The reason you 'know your limits' is so in training you can attempt to move them, and in reality you can work within or around them. Key to that is knowing immediately, "Can I make this shot?"

Larry

Deja vu · February 2, 2014, 11:58 AM

Comply. You can not draw aim and fire faster than the bad guy can just fire...

Want proof reverse the roll. Could you fire before the bad guy was able to draw aim and fire if you already have the gun out and aimed? That is a losing situation.

That is a situation where I don't see a good out come. Chances are at least 1 person is going to get shot if you cant talk him down.

Strafer Gott · February 2, 2014, 12:52 PM

It takes .25 seconds to fire. How fast is your draw again? So somebody is going to get shot. At that point you have a clear target. What's the problem now? I doubt the officers in the "Onion Field" would make the same choice given a "mulligan". Don't give up your gun! How will increasing the number of hostages improve the situation? In this "scenario", your flow chart is complete. Get busy!

January 31, 2014, 11:48 PM	#1
David spargenator Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2013 Posts: 131	Hostile situation. Bad guy has a friend at gun point? If there was a bad guy that had your brother at gun point. And the bad guy was right behind him holding him in a headlock. What would you do if you have a pistol and a cell phone in your pocket that day? The bad guy says that he'll shoot your brother and you if you try to call police or try to pull a gun on him. And even if you did get a gun out of your pocket, your likely to hit your brother instead of the bad guy.

January 31, 2014, 11:59 PM	#3
leadcounsel Junior member Join Date: September 8, 2005 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 2,119	Um... what does he want? Probably your wallet and keys. Comply. Life isn't worth the money. Stuck in that situation, I'd only draw/shoot when either safe, or when it appeared this was turning from robbery to execution and my hand was forced. The best among us can't draw from concealed holster, acquire a plate sized target, and shoot accurately and safely, faster than it takes the hostage taker to squeeze the trigger and/or duck. In addition to the real risk of you provoking the death of the hostage (which would be horrible and you'd forever live with that grief and guilt), or the real risk of him shooting you also, or the real risk of you missing and hitting the hostage... you'd be likely face criminal and civil legal problems in the event that whatever offensive actions you took resulted in innocent death/harm. Say you draw, the hostage taker kills the hostage, you shoot and miss as he aims his gun at you while you dive for cover, and you shoot and kill an innocent person walking by... your actions would be armchair-quarterbacked at length and could result in serious criminal and/or civil suits with huge ramifications. This is a lose-lose situation. Last edited by leadcounsel; February 1, 2014 at 12:16 AM.

February 1, 2014, 08:29 AM	#7
Tinner666 Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2012 Location: Richmond, Va. Posts: 353	Brother? No biggie. Shoot him until he drops, then shoot the bad guy. Two problems solved at once. (Collateral damage, don't ya know?) Wife? She knows to just collapse her legs and drop, but she says she trusts me enough to not miss, that she isn't worried about it. __________________ Frank-- Member, GoA, NRA-ILA, SAF, NRA Life Member

February 1, 2014, 09:13 AM	#11
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Before everyone gets cocky, saying I'll do X or I'll do Y, go to the range, in a controlled Non-Stress environment and print and shoot this target. At 15 yards, draw and shoot in less then 1 second, hitting the bad guy and not the good guy. Take in account, a miss is as bad as hitting the good guy. http://photos.imageevent.com/kraigwy...0Target_1_.pdf Before you ask, No, I can't do it using a pistol with any regularity. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

February 1, 2014, 10:06 AM	#13
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	- 55% of gunfights take place 0-5 feet. - 20% of gunfights take place in 5-10 feet. - 20% of gunfights take place in 10-21 feet. Bottom Line: 95% of gunfights take place in 0-21 feet. (Source- FBI) See also: http://www.virginiacops.org/articles...ing/combat.htm A man's got to know his limitations. Last edited by mehavey; February 1, 2014 at 10:50 AM.

January 31, 2014, 11:57 PM	#2
WardenWolf Junior member Join Date: December 12, 2013 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 135	"Buddy, there's only one way you're walking out of here alive. If you shoot him, you're a dead man, and you know it. Let him go, and run, and you'll live. I'll give you a 30 second head start."

February 1, 2014, 12:03 AM	#4
jason_iowa Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Posts: 686	Hypotheticals are dangerous. You do whatever it takes to get out of the situation with as many parties alive as humanly possible.

February 1, 2014, 08:18 AM	#6
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	I agree with the "appearing" to comply and work it out, but make sure "you" are prepared as well. Practice for it ahead of time, and it wont be as scary a shot, especially if youve done it a millon times before, and know its not as tough as it might appear.

February 1, 2014, 08:39 AM	#8
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	I've always been amused by such bad guy situations as shown in the foto. At the range portrayed, with all that he's got exposed, and the gun pointed at me instead of the victim...

February 1, 2014, 09:59 AM	#12
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	1 second from concealment at 15 yards on a target that small (they arent "life" size, right?), seems a pretty lofty aspiration. I understand and agree with striving for better than you need to be, but I do think you need to be somewhat realistic too, otherwise youre likely just to frustrate yourself. Drawing and shooting on a target in that situation would probably not be my first choice, although I do practice that. For me, 1 second aint a happening thing, I do know that, 2 maybe. 15 yards would be my max too, and 10 in is where most of my practice is done. I practice a couple of different ways other than from the draw too, and none are "static". The three I do the most are from SUL, a pulled in ready, and one handed, with my arm hanging, from behind my back leg when bladed to the target. The more you practice, the better you get, the more confidant you get, and the less likely youll be to hesitate when you need to shoot. I do think the more realistic the target (ie "photo" type) are a better choice, as they get your brain accustomed to real people, and not just generic outlines. They also help with targeting decisions, especially from angles other than head on.

February 1, 2014, 10:10 AM	#14
David spargenator Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2013 Posts: 131	Ya I've been practicing with little pocket pistols. Since that's probably what I'll havre if that happens. It would be a very difficult shot to make. Would it be better to descretely call 911?

February 1, 2014, 10:34 AM	#15
Grizz12 Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2012 Posts: 527	my brother is a Marine, the bad guy would be bleeding profusely long before any threats came from his mouth which in turn would give me plenty of time to draw

February 1, 2014, 10:40 AM	#17
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	Throw down whatever he's asking for and back away toward cover(shooting rest). He'll look at what you dropped and probably expose more target. I've killed coyotes and skunks at 25 yards with my carry pistol(I had a little more than 1 second but not a lot)-I can pop this guy's melon at 20'.

February 1, 2014, 10:01 PM	#19
veamon Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2013 Posts: 186	Do what you could to comply, and if things look like they're going that extra dangerous step, then reevaluate. This kind of situation isnt hollywood, and I doubt you're as good as the movies make the heroes out to be.

February 2, 2014, 08:03 AM	#20
9ballbilly Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: northeast Florida Posts: 611	I'd also give the BG what he wanted as nothing in my pockets is worth a life. That said, if he was distracted by whatever I tossed his way and "presented" a clear target I'd likely shoot him as he's still a threat. My brother is very close to 300lbs. and spent most of his life working heavy construction (steel and concrete). It's quite possible all I'd have to do is sit back and watch him turn the BG into a bloody rag doll. All of this is, of course, armchair quarterbacking and absolutely worthless. __________________ may God eternally bless the American Rifleman--- as long as one stands, resolute, liberty shall not perish.

February 2, 2014, 08:38 AM	#21
skoro Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 1,952	Hostile situation. Bad guy has a friend at gun point? Unless you already have your pistol drawn and a bead on the BG, you're at a total disadvantage with no good way forward. Comply with his demands and hope for an opening or that he'll release his hostage. Fumbling around trying to get your gun unholstered and into action in that situation isn't likely to yield good results.

February 2, 2014, 09:48 AM	#23
DT Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 959	The key is-it depends. Depends on the range, the target exposed by the aggressor, what the hostage is doing, what you're armed with... And the only real way to be able to decide (rapidly!) if you can make the particular shot you're presented with is to practice, train and test yourself until you know the shots you can, and cannot, make. The reason you 'know your limits' is so in training you can attempt to move them, and in reality you can work within or around them. Key to that is knowing immediately, "Can I make this shot?" Larry __________________ He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast. Government, Anarchy and Chaos

February 2, 2014, 11:58 AM	#24
Deja vu Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Border of Idaho & Montana Posts: 2,584	Comply. You can not draw aim and fire faster than the bad guy can just fire... Want proof reverse the roll. Could you fire before the bad guy was able to draw aim and fire if you already have the gun out and aimed? That is a losing situation. That is a situation where I don't see a good out come. Chances are at least 1 person is going to get shot if you cant talk him down. __________________ Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull. all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...

February 2, 2014, 12:52 PM	#25
Strafer Gott Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2011 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,315	It takes .25 seconds to fire. How fast is your draw again? So somebody is going to get shot. At that point you have a clear target. What's the problem now? I doubt the officers in the "Onion Field" would make the same choice given a "mulligan". Don't give up your gun! How will increasing the number of hostages improve the situation? In this "scenario", your flow chart is complete. Get busy!