Here Come The Scalpers - Page 2

TBM900 · August 23, 2020, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warhammer

The people defending CTD's price gouging (yes, it's price gouging; look it up) by saying "that's how business works" have clearly never had exposure to the P&L of an actual retail business. Astronomically increasing the price of one product category to take advantage of current circumstances is not the way honest businesses operate. There are too many people speaking out of turn about that which they clearly have only the barest grade school understanding. (This is coming from a long-time retail manager.)

From a long time business owner... everything you said is emotional rhetoric.

PS...
Care to get together and compare your P&L's to mine?

TBM900 · August 23, 2020, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiBC

I don't understand the emotion.
If CDT puts a ridiculous price on an item, I can simply scratch them as a source.
"Not a good place to buy" But I don't have any heartburn over it. Blood pressure stays the same. They never were a guns or ammo source for me.
I'm not giving them the power to ruin my day.
The good deals are where you find them. Don't try to pick tomatoes off of an elm tree.

Well said

gaseousclay · August 23, 2020, 11:35 AM

Quote:

The people defending CTD's price gouging (yes, it's price gouging; look it up) by saying "that's how business works" have clearly never had exposure to the P&L of an actual retail business. Astronomically increasing the price of one product category to take advantage of current circumstances is not the way honest businesses operate. There are too many people speaking out of turn about that which they clearly have only the barest grade school understanding. (This is coming from a long-time retail manager.)

I disagree. Consumers have no way of knowing what potential price increases happened along the supply chain. Those costs in turn are passed onto the retailer and the retailer passes it onto consumers. It's the consumer who decides the fair market value for ammo. If CTD raises their prices and consumers buy it, then the market will show that there is still demand, even at that high price. If CTD doesn't sell that ammo they'll have to reduce their prices.

My big box LGS does not charge inflated prices for ammo, and that ammo disappears within minutes of it being put on the shelf. This happened to me last week when I found 9mm on the shelf. I grabbed 200 rounds, left to look at something else and when I came back 5 minutes later it was all gone. They were charging $0.30/round versus the $0.68/round i'm seeing online. Would I pay $0.68/round? Of course I would, if I had the money and if I desperately needed it. Panic causes consumers to sometimes do irrational things, but the specter of continued civil unrest is showing that consumers are desperate to protect themselves in the face of mobs and will pay whatever until law and order is restored.

ghbucky · August 23, 2020, 11:45 AM

Inflated prices during shortages is a GOOD thing! This is a feature of supply and demand that reserves the ammo for the people in the most desperate need of it.

I am plagiarizing a scenario that I saw laid out to explain why this should not be short circuited by well meaning, but ultimately, poorly thought out price gouging laws.

Right now, a hurricanes are bearing down on Texas. In the aftermath, there is likely to be widespread power outages and generators will sell out. Say a guy in Kansas has a truck and trailer and runs to all the big box stores locally and fills his rig up with generators at normal retails prices.

Then he hauls it all down to the hurricane zone and sells them off the truck for 4x what he paid. People snap them up because those are the only ones available. Then the cops show up and arrest him for price gouging.

Do you think he will ever offer that service again?

Ricklin · August 23, 2020, 12:11 PM

During the early part of the shutdown we had a new office to set up.
We had two pickups towing trailers and we caravaned down to California from up North here, loaded up to the max.
We joked at gas stations on the way down we had toilet paper for the golden state to sell on street corners.

One guy took me seriously and lectured me at length about how California laws prohibited that. I finally had to tell him.....

I do a lot of online business, most people do today. The power of choice is yours, with a far larger choice no matter where you are located.

I don't do business with CTD. There are better choices.

gaseousclay · August 23, 2020, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Inflated prices during shortages is a GOOD thing! This is a feature of supply and demand that reserves the ammo for the people in the most desperate need of it.

Agreed. Those new gun owners that don’t know the average price of ammo will gladly pay it. The price increase will also help to curb demand and allow for the supply chain to replenish itself. We don’t have to like the increases but it’s our choice whether or not we’ll pay the price. I know what my price threshold is and if the cost edges up any higher then I’ll stop buying. So will most people, unless you’re rich.

Mike38 · August 23, 2020, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Think about it as your business. Your costs are fixed, the suddenly you don’t have any inventory to sell.

You don't have any inventory because you sold everything you had. So what did you do with those profits? Buy a corporate jet, or put it in the bank like most businesses would do so you have something to fall back on?

jmr40 · August 23, 2020, 10:54 PM

I understand the laws of supply and demand. I have no problem with stores charging a premium right now. If someone is knowledgeable about what a fair price is and they choose to pay those prices that is OK.

But this seems an attempt to take advantage of new gun owners who don't know any better. To me this is no different than an auto mechanic taking advantage of an older widow who always let her husband deal with car repairs.

It's not like ammo is no longer being made. It is, and there are plenty of other stores selling ammo at reasonable prices. Granted much higher than a few months ago.

Hal · August 24, 2020, 05:21 AM

I'm proudly one of those individuals that Tamara ( a one time staffer here at TFL) referred to as - a binary thinker.

I like my black/white world.

I choose to think of places like CTD as "one of us" - meaning they are part of the "gun community". They do sell guns & ammunition after all.

HOWEVER - I can still think of them as "profiteering" - which may or may not be price gouging - but - whatever it entails, it's just not right.
They are every bit as slimy as the drug companies that stick it to people for necessary medications.

FITASC · August 24, 2020, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:
ok, your bills are still due, but WHY don't you have any inventory to sell??

BECAUSE YOU SOLD IT ALL

And you made your expected profit on all you sold.
Yes, in May
Now it’s August and your suppliers are delivering a tiny fraction of expected stock..
So you mark it at normal price and it sells out in 10 minutes...
Now what?

This is exactly true. A seller prices his goods based on his upcoming replacement costs; even if his cost remains the same, if he can only get 10% of his normal inventory then costs have to be cut and income raised to offset

Hal · August 24, 2020, 09:15 AM

Quote:

This is exactly true. A seller prices his goods based on his upcoming replacement costs; even if his cost remains the same, if he can only get 10% of his normal inventory then costs have to be cut and income raised to offset

Ahem - sort of...
A lot depends on how your inventory & accounting system are structured.
There's FIFO -LIFO and Weighted Average methods when you inventory at cost.

Inventorying at retail - a whole different ball of wax.

There is no one cut and dried method of accounting/inventory.

FITASC · August 24, 2020, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Inflated prices during shortages is a GOOD thing! This is a feature of supply and demand that reserves the ammo for the people in the most desperate need of it.

I am plagiarizing a scenario that I saw laid out to explain why this should not be short circuited by well meaning, but ultimately, poorly thought out price gouging laws.

Right now, a hurricanes are bearing down on Texas. In the aftermath, there is likely to be widespread power outages and generators will sell out. Say a guy in Kansas has a truck and trailer and runs to all the big box stores locally and fills his rig up with generators at normal retails prices.

Then he hauls it all down to the hurricane zone and sells them off the truck for 4x what he paid. People snap them up because those are the only ones available. Then the cops show up and arrest him for price gouging.

Do you think he will ever offer that service again?

I think you mean this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9QEkw6_O6w

ghbucky · August 24, 2020, 10:06 AM

I've never seen that video before, but it lays out the scenario much better than I can.

**44 AMP** · August 24, 2020, 01:08 PM

The down side is that those people who have the same need, but lack the funds to pay the hyper inflated price can't get the needed item. And when they could have gotten the needed item at the regular price, but now can't due to the seller jacking the price up to profit from the emergency, it creates a serious case of resentment against the seller.

Most people, even those with short funds understand and would accept a slight increase in the price but doubling, tripling or charging 5x or more the "pre panic" price is just to much for people to accept without resentment.

There's a convenience store a couple miles down the road from my house. Town is 10 miles away. Virtually everything in the store costs more than it does in town. I get that, I'm paying slightly more for the convenience of not having to go all the way to town and back. But while they may turn a $3.50 item at the grocery store into a $5 item at their store and sell it, they don't try to turn it into a $25 item.

50 shooter · August 24, 2020, 02:49 PM

Another issue is that as the panic goes away, people that paid the hyper inflated prices for the ammo, still think that the ammo is/should be sold at the same price! Because now they don't need as much or want to sell everything. Now they can't get their money back out of it.

So now you have a new shooter that's pissed off at the industry and other shooters for not helping them out. Yes, gun store employees should have said something but if they get caught, they might get fired. Or they could be talking to the owner, who probably won't tell them anything other than "live and learn"!

Just something else to think about when it comes to newbs, panic buyers... If you can, help newbs out, getting screwed over right out of the gate isn't going to help our cause. We need all gun owners doing their part, even if they just buy a gun to have it "incase".

JERRYS. · August 24, 2020, 03:08 PM

CTD prices, like the Taurus warranty times are hardly news. is there anyone here who does not already know this? maybe there should be a sticky for the members who still find this shocking somehow.

FITASC · August 24, 2020, 06:52 PM

Quote:

There's a convenience store a couple miles down the road from my house. Town is 10 miles away. Virtually everything in the store costs more than it does in town. I get that, I'm paying slightly more for the convenience of not having to go all the way to town and back. But while they may turn a $3.50 item at the grocery store into a $5 item at their store and sell it, they don't try to turn it into a $25 item.

How about the fact that it also costs that retailer more for those goods to be brought to him? I stopped one time at a gas station in Big Sur to use the bathroom; I noticed their very high gas prices compared to areas some miles away. His cost for the gas was as high as those other places were selling because he bought smaller amounts and it was expensive to deliver that smaller load...........

SHR970 · August 24, 2020, 07:22 PM

Quote:

His cost for the gas was as high as those other places were selling because he bought smaller amounts and it was expensive to deliver that smaller load

In a word NO. That's not how gasoline delivery works in Kali. I happen to work super close to a major refinery. Just up the street is a station selling their gas (as in right next door); they also have some of the highest prices in the area for the brand.

The terminal might be 1/2 a mile up the road but the TRANSPORTATION Supplier happens to be many miles away. You pay freight for the truck to go to and from the barn and every stop in between.

Big Sur is a stop on the way to and from the barn. A set of doubles carries 8K - 11.6K gallons depending on the rig. The question becomes 'where is the barn' for the brand?

This has much to do about current costs. The middle man gets his cut and the end supplier passes this on. Some end suppliers like CTD went from reasonable to do business with to the multi warehouse shell game to the stick it to everyone when the SHTF.

Before things turned ugly one coworker joined our ranks and got ammo and started practising. As I told several coworkers when things started to get ugly: If you buy a gun in XXX caliber / gauge don't worry if you can't get ammo; I'll part with enough for you to handle your business. One bought and got his ammo too....but thanked me for the offer. One is looking into transferring his stuff in from out of state. He has reserved his option on a preagreed set price (pre panic). One is worried that he missed the boat and can't even buy anything.

**44 AMP** · August 25, 2020, 02:17 AM

One thing about gasoline that makes it different from most other things sold at retail, most gas stations do not own the gas they sell. A few do (or used to), but most don't. The distributor owns the gas and sets the price. The gas station gets a percentage for selling it, and the use of its tanks & pumps.

Ammo, and most other goods don't get sold that way, the seller is also the owner and therefore controls their prices.

ATN082268 · August 25, 2020, 07:22 AM

The main reasons I don't do business with Cheaper than Dirt (CTD) are because their prices are high and their customer service is low. I don't know if the stories are true but some people said they had their orders cancelled so CTD could relist the merchandice at a higher price. I don't know if situations like that are illegal but definitely are unethical.

HiBC · August 25, 2020, 07:47 AM

Quote:

And when they could have gotten the needed item at the regular price, but now can't due to the seller jacking the price up to profit from the emergency, it creates a serious case of resentment against the seller.

Bingo. And that resentment can last a long time. Obviously CDT is not greatly appreciated here. So,vote with your buck. CTD may hold some ammo,but YOU hold the money.

Dicks alienated many of us.I won't walk through their door.

Do those who are bellyaching have any better solution than taking your business elsewhere? Are you asking for "We are the Government and we are here to help?" Do you want Government price controls on ammo?

Or should Win,Fed,Hornady,Rem,demand and enforce all retailers to sell at MSRP ??

Did we bellyache when WalMart was selling Win White box 45 ACP and 9mm hardball cheap enough I was too lazy to sit down at my loading bench?

DANG IT. Those dirt bags are selling ammo TOO CHEAP!! Boooo Hisss! I'll never shop there again!!

What is it you are asking for???? Be very careful,you might get it. Freedom is tough to deal with sometimes.

ghbucky · August 25, 2020, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Freedom is tough to deal with sometimes.

This needs to be on billboards and shouted from rooftops.

44caliberkid · August 26, 2020, 03:43 PM

While I don't do business with CTD, the reason for my post was just to highlight how crazy prices are getting, not to be critical of free enterprise. I don't need any ammo or reloading supplies and can wait till things are back to normal, if ever.
A few weeks ago I was in a big retailer's gun department and saw the clerk come out of the back and surreptitiously give two boxes of ammo to a customer, who hurried off to the check out. I asked the clerk, What are you keeping back there? He either didn't hear me or ignored me.
I'm surprised every size of cleaning jag is sold out except big 45 and 50 rifle jags.
I do wish I had bought a few more FAL mags when they were $10 a piece, just a few months ago.

Double Naught Spy · August 26, 2020, 05:32 PM

Funny how consumers want to blame the vendors for the lack of preparation on the part of the consumers. If you wanted to have access to a bunch of ammo at pre panic prices, then you should have bought a bunch of ammo when their wasn't a panic. Or, maybe you should have started buying ammo when you realized things were going south SEVERAL MONTHS AGO!

Besides, this is a presidential election year. Panics are common for the last several elections. NOBODY should be surprised by this. You had 4 years since the last election to get ready...and what did you do?

As for CTD, again, NOT A SURPRISE. We have had posts here for more than a decade as to the type of business that CTD conducts.

bill460 · August 27, 2020, 09:06 AM

Every time there is a run on ammo, (and there have been several), the same thing happens. People b!tch and moan about Cheaper Than Dirt. "Robbers!"... "Boycott them!"... "They should be run out of business!"

It's all B.S. Nothing more. It's called capitalism people. It's what our country was built on. They have the right to charge what they want... And you have the right not to pay it, if you choose not to. Think about it. You can only be "scalped" if you are FORCED to buy. Food, water, fuel, and batteries during a hurricane. And even then, you should have the foresight to stock up on these things if you live in hurricane country.

Ammunition is no different. Americans go into panic mode if a feather so much as falls on their heads. These people always seem to have the money, and will pay through the nose for it in a crisis... But these same individuals purchase nothing when it's cheap and plentiful. Because most can't be bothered. So why should we be concerned about them, when they're not concerned about themselves? It makes zero sense.

August 23, 2020, 12:11 PM	#30
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,013	Essential workers During the early part of the shutdown we had a new office to set up. We had two pickups towing trailers and we caravaned down to California from up North here, loaded up to the max. We joked at gas stations on the way down we had toilet paper for the golden state to sell on street corners. One guy took me seriously and lectured me at length about how California laws prohibited that. I finally had to tell him..... I do a lot of online business, most people do today. The power of choice is yours, with a far larger choice no matter where you are located. I don't do business with CTD. There are better choices. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

August 23, 2020, 10:54 PM	#33
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	I understand the laws of supply and demand. I have no problem with stores charging a premium right now. If someone is knowledgeable about what a fair price is and they choose to pay those prices that is OK. But this seems an attempt to take advantage of new gun owners who don't know any better. To me this is no different than an auto mechanic taking advantage of an older widow who always let her husband deal with car repairs. It's not like ammo is no longer being made. It is, and there are plenty of other stores selling ammo at reasonable prices. Granted much higher than a few months ago. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

August 24, 2020, 01:08 PM	#39
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	The down side is that those people who have the same need, but lack the funds to pay the hyper inflated price can't get the needed item. And when they could have gotten the needed item at the regular price, but now can't due to the seller jacking the price up to profit from the emergency, it creates a serious case of resentment against the seller. Most people, even those with short funds understand and would accept a slight increase in the price but doubling, tripling or charging 5x or more the "pre panic" price is just to much for people to accept without resentment. There's a convenience store a couple miles down the road from my house. Town is 10 miles away. Virtually everything in the store costs more than it does in town. I get that, I'm paying slightly more for the convenience of not having to go all the way to town and back. But while they may turn a $3.50 item at the grocery store into a $5 item at their store and sell it, they don't try to turn it into a $25 item. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

August 24, 2020, 02:49 PM	#40
50 shooter Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2002 Location: SoCal PRK Posts: 986	Another issue is that as the panic goes away, people that paid the hyper inflated prices for the ammo, still think that the ammo is/should be sold at the same price! Because now they don't need as much or want to sell everything. Now they can't get their money back out of it. So now you have a new shooter that's pissed off at the industry and other shooters for not helping them out. Yes, gun store employees should have said something but if they get caught, they might get fired. Or they could be talking to the owner, who probably won't tell them anything other than "live and learn"! Just something else to think about when it comes to newbs, panic buyers... If you can, help newbs out, getting screwed over right out of the gate isn't going to help our cause. We need all gun owners doing their part, even if they just buy a gun to have it "incase". __________________ I see the world thru bloodshot eyes Streets filled with blood from distant lies The dogs of war never compromise, No time for rearranging.

August 25, 2020, 02:17 AM	#44
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	One thing about gasoline that makes it different from most other things sold at retail, most gas stations do not own the gas they sell. A few do (or used to), but most don't. The distributor owns the gas and sets the price. The gas station gets a percentage for selling it, and the use of its tanks & pumps. Ammo, and most other goods don't get sold that way, the seller is also the owner and therefore controls their prices. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

August 23, 2020, 11:45 AM	#29
ghbucky Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2020 Posts: 1,177	Inflated prices during shortages is a GOOD thing! This is a feature of supply and demand that reserves the ammo for the people in the most desperate need of it. I am plagiarizing a scenario that I saw laid out to explain why this should not be short circuited by well meaning, but ultimately, poorly thought out price gouging laws. Right now, a hurricanes are bearing down on Texas. In the aftermath, there is likely to be widespread power outages and generators will sell out. Say a guy in Kansas has a truck and trailer and runs to all the big box stores locally and fills his rig up with generators at normal retails prices. Then he hauls it all down to the hurricane zone and sells them off the truck for 4x what he paid. People snap them up because those are the only ones available. Then the cops show up and arrest him for price gouging. Do you think he will ever offer that service again?

August 24, 2020, 05:21 AM	#34
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	I'm proudly one of those individuals that Tamara ( a one time staffer here at TFL) referred to as - a binary thinker. I like my black/white world. I choose to think of places like CTD as "one of us" - meaning they are part of the "gun community". They do sell guns & ammunition after all. HOWEVER - I can still think of them as "profiteering" - which may or may not be price gouging - but - whatever it entails, it's just not right. They are every bit as slimy as the drug companies that stick it to people for necessary medications.

August 24, 2020, 10:06 AM	#38
ghbucky Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2020 Posts: 1,177	I've never seen that video before, but it lays out the scenario much better than I can.

August 24, 2020, 03:08 PM	#41
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,969	CTD prices, like the Taurus warranty times are hardly news. is there anyone here who does not already know this? maybe there should be a sticky for the members who still find this shocking somehow.

August 25, 2020, 07:22 AM	#45
ATN082268 Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2013 Posts: 975	The main reasons I don't do business with Cheaper than Dirt (CTD) are because their prices are high and their customer service is low. I don't know if the stories are true but some people said they had their orders cancelled so CTD could relist the merchandice at a higher price. I don't know if situations like that are illegal but definitely are unethical.

August 26, 2020, 03:43 PM	#48
44caliberkid Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2017 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,104	While I don't do business with CTD, the reason for my post was just to highlight how crazy prices are getting, not to be critical of free enterprise. I don't need any ammo or reloading supplies and can wait till things are back to normal, if ever. A few weeks ago I was in a big retailer's gun department and saw the clerk come out of the back and surreptitiously give two boxes of ammo to a customer, who hurried off to the check out. I asked the clerk, What are you keeping back there? He either didn't hear me or ignored me. I'm surprised every size of cleaning jag is sold out except big 45 and 50 rifle jags. I do wish I had bought a few more FAL mags when they were $10 a piece, just a few months ago.

August 26, 2020, 05:32 PM	#49
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Funny how consumers want to blame the vendors for the lack of preparation on the part of the consumers. If you wanted to have access to a bunch of ammo at pre panic prices, then you should have bought a bunch of ammo when their wasn't a panic. Or, maybe you should have started buying ammo when you realized things were going south SEVERAL MONTHS AGO! Besides, this is a presidential election year. Panics are common for the last several elections. NOBODY should be surprised by this. You had 4 years since the last election to get ready...and what did you do? As for CTD, again, NOT A SURPRISE. We have had posts here for more than a decade as to the type of business that CTD conducts. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

August 27, 2020, 09:06 AM	#50
bill460 Member Join Date: December 13, 2019 Location: Lake Havasu City, Arizona Posts: 93	Every time there is a run on ammo, (and there have been several), the same thing happens. People b!tch and moan about Cheaper Than Dirt. "Robbers!"... "Boycott them!"... "They should be run out of business!" It's all B.S. Nothing more. It's called capitalism people. It's what our country was built on. They have the right to charge what they want... And you have the right not to pay it, if you choose not to. Think about it. You can only be "scalped" if you are FORCED to buy. Food, water, fuel, and batteries during a hurricane. And even then, you should have the foresight to stock up on these things if you live in hurricane country. Ammunition is no different. Americans go into panic mode if a feather so much as falls on their heads. These people always seem to have the money, and will pay through the nose for it in a crisis... But these same individuals purchase nothing when it's cheap and plentiful. Because most can't be bothered. So why should we be concerned about them, when they're not concerned about themselves? It makes zero sense.