45-70 405 grain Remington Core-Lokt for Bear Defense

[natman]

That Core-Lokt is actually a premium bullet .

I would argue that the Core-Lokt is not really a premium bullet. It's a really good factory bullet, but it's still cup and core.

The whole thing is somewhat moot, because the 405 grain 45-70 load under discussion doesn't use Core-Lokts. It uses an ordinary soft point, one that's designed to expand at the anemic 1300 fps the factory loads generate.

[Wyosmith]

Well Coldbeer I can see your point, but I have to let you in on something. The 600 and 800 that the US government admits to are not not not the only bears we have here. It's the ones they have counted and are held accountable for.

You actually did answer my question. "Who told you that"?
The US government told you that.

Another little bit of info that the US Fish and Wildlife came out with (when that man got his arm torn off at horse Creek Wyoming in 1999) was that the area of the Rocky Mountains around the Yellowstone and Teton Parks of Wyoming had more grizzlies per square mile than any place on earth including any in Canada or Russia. They have now done a back flip trying to cover that report up.

The 1400 in Yellowstone park, even if it was a correct number (which it clearly IS NOT) is only a small fraction of the Grizzlies that inhabit north western Wyoming.

Remember the Feds working the grizzlies and the wolves in the Teton and Yellowstone parks have an agenda that is being pushed from behind closed doors.
These are the same people that introduced the Canadian Timber Wolf to Wyoming (In clear violation to their own laws) and lied about it.
They are the ones that told the US Public it was only 30 wolves.
They said the Wolves would never leave the park.
Now we have wolves roaming all over the western USA and I have heard of some that were caught and killed in Minnesota and now in Oregon. All from the original population planted in Yellowstone.

Please tell me that you know the US government is not always (or maybe ever) honest with us and doesn’t always give us the accurate info!

Trust me…..we have a LOT more than 1200 elk around western Wyoming. And elk can be hard to find at times. But when I am hunting elk, high mountain deer or moose I nearly ALWAYS see grizzlies. That being said I think it’s pretty obvious that we have more than 1200 grizzlies in this area.

[coldbeer]

I hope you're right Wyosmith. It wouldn't be the first time people reliant on taxpayer money fudged the numbers to overstate their case and protect their meal ticket.

[jeager106]

Hummmm????
About the 45-70 ability to dispatch dangerous game quickly with modern loads using modern bullets in strong rifles.
Google up some true experiences in modern times about the ability of the
45-70 to dispatch dangerous African game.
'Nuff said.
I hunted the far north of Onterio for 5 years until I got my 300 pound bore brownie.
At the time my rifle & ctg. of choice was a 700 Rem. in .300 Win. Mag.
I stayed at an outiftters camp & of course the around the camp fire discussions often centered around calibers for moose & bear.
The owner of the camp was a very experienced hunter, saw many successes & failures reference caliber choices.
He strongly suggested I leave the .300 Win. Mag in camp & rely on my 1895 Marlin 45-70 with my handloads.
Not being dumb I trusted this mans opinions & took his suggestion.
We were 5 hunters from Ohio, I was the only one using the "obsolete"
45-70. Others were armed with .308, .300 Win. Mag., .338 Win. mag. a 30-06 & a .270.
The guy with the .270 hit & lost 2 blackies, the fellow with the .308 hit & lost one, hit 3 times, & finally took a small blackie which required 4 shots to dispatch, the .300 Win Mag fellow hit & lost 2 bear, the .338 Win. Mag. hunter missed one bear.
Just a small slice of experience & probably not enough data to draw a definate conclusion but interesting enough.

[tahunua001]

no offense but your hunting group needs to seriously work on marksmanship and tracking.

I shot my blacky with a 6.5 arisaka which is WAY lower powered than any of those rifles and I'm guessing the open sights are not nearly as precise as the scopes on those heavy bolt guns and I tracked him for about 15 yards before he dropped.

[jeager106]

QUOTE:
no offense but your hunting group needs to seriously work on marksmanship and tracking.

I shot my blacky with a 6.5 arisaka which is WAY lower powered than any of those rifles and I'm guessing the open sights are not nearly as precise as the scopes on those heavy bolt guns and I tracked him for about 15 yards before he dropped. __________________


No offense taken. I can't speak to the others proficienty with rifles.
Re: the fellow that hit bears with the .308.
3 days after his "assult" on his bear I helped him search for the animals & found both several hundred yards from where he shot them.
Both spoiled & wasted.
One was clearly gut shot, the other hit through both lungs, pass through shots.
In my opinion he was a poor shot & an even worse hunter.
Accuracy means everything in my opinion.
With respect to saving ones butt from a bear intent on making you dinner accuracy is paramount to stopping the thing quickly.

[RangerHAAF]

I wouldn't think about shooting a big northern bear using anything less than 400 grains, moving between 13-1600 fps preferably in a copper jacketed solid but a regular un-jacketed solid would also work.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

To my way of thinking, "premium" means bonded or partitioned, or monolith/gilding metal. The Rem Core-Lokt, while an excellent bullet, isn't any of those things, is it?

[mete]

To me a "premium bullet" is one that performs significantly better than the standard cup and core . My definition does not define design , only performance.
My old 44 mag load used the Speer swchp .Cup and core ? Sure, but a much better performer.One secret was a core of 3% antimony IIRC That was the highest antimony percentage for cores. My only recovered bullet went through 30" of deer ,taking out a rib, going through the thickrest part of the ham , stopping against the hide at .50 cal diameter. Cup&core yes, premium performance ? Yes.

[Deja vu]

The big heavy bullets do not need the speed that many of the 30 calibers need to kill effectively. But if it was me id still use a big bullet and load it as fast as I could tolerate.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

To me a "premium bullet" is one that performs significantly better than the standard cup and core

Fair enough. But if the core-lokt isn't a "standard cup and core", then what is it? I guess I'm ignorant of its details.

[mete]

There are a number of cup&core bullets , standard , Core-Lokt, bonded, core of various lead alloys ,various jacket copper alloys, various jacket thickness ,various round nose ,spitzer .HP, etc .Yes all C&C but all different.

As a hunter I'm concerned with performance not the details of construction .

[reynolds357]

Its on my bucket list, but I have never hunted a Brown bear. Maybe one day I can afford to do it. From what I have read, and from first hand accounts I have heard, the hypervelocity magnums pushing Barnes X is the way to quickly put down a brown. One of my good friends took a .338 Rum to Kodiak. He had an old school guide who did not like anything .338. He griped and moaned about how he was going to have to go into the brush and kill the bear after it ran off. He wanted his hunters to have .375 or bigger. My friend shot a huge Kodiak, the bear jumped straight up and died in the air. The guide tried to buy his rifle.

[T. O'Heir]

Yogi doesn't need defending, but if he's within 100 yards or less, you'll never be fast enough to recognize the treat and react. He can cover 100 yards in under 6 seconds. However, a 405 will work, if you can place the shot. It will not kill a griz in his tracks, but neither will anything else.
To my way of thinking, "premium" means over priced and unnecessary.

[Panfisher]

Would I trust the .45-70 and 405 grain Cor-lokt to stop a bear, yeah about as much as I would trust anything else. Seems like the power and bullet type/quality is there, assuming the shooter does their part in recognizing and reacting to the threat.

[WIN1886]

To my way of thinking,"premium" means overpriced and unnecessary.

My 405 hardcast w gascheck FP bullets cost me less to purchase from a local source than the Remington 405 grain bullets I've used for reloading and they hold together and penetrate waaaaay better than the Remington soft point ! I know from experience that the Remington 405 grain SP works fine on most medium game but I have serious doubts on using it on larger animals...especially those with sharp teeth and claws !

[Barnacle Brad]

There are numerous caveats, 'what if's and 'if only's to any shooting/hunting experience.

Personally, I would not go afield in Griz country without a cadre of Ninjas to scout, harass, draw attention to (bait), and/or surgically remove the heart of said beast with a razor sharp blade of the finest steel made in some far off exotic land, with one fell stroke.

If one of my Ninjas were armed with a 45/70 with 405gr Core-Lokt, my gut tells me he would have a better chance of surviving an attack than the blade wielding one, pajamas notwithstanding...

[SansSouci]

.45/70 velocity doesn't cause concern. With the right bullet, a .45/70 Gov't will kill everything that walks.

Get the right 400 grain .45/70 Gov't bullet at an arbitrarily determined and nominal 1600 FPS, and there is nothing in North America that it won't kill.

One caveat: I have a an original Marlin Guide Gun in .45/70. It doable with factory loads. When handloads start getting warm, recoil becomes a very real problem. Load that sucker with a maximum charge of R-7 or IMR 3031, and it is downright mean and unpleasant to shoot.

Were I to use my Guide Gun in areas where big bears are a concern, I'd go with a stout 400 grain bullet at about 1500 FPS, maybe 1400. When recoil starts to loosen teeth, it's time to reduce velocity. And no girz will know the difference.

[6.5swedeforelk]

I wouldn't think about shooting a big northern bear using anything less than 400 grains, moving between 13-1600 fps preferably in a copper jacketed solid...

You may want to check the legality of this before striking out.

[Guv]

If you have a Marlin why on earth would you use such a weak 45-70 load when much better ones are available? Is your life really worth proving this point? A hand loaded 350gr Hornady at much higher safe velocity would give you alot more insurance against such a dangerous animal. natman is also correct in stating the 405 Remington is not a Corelokt bullet but just a standard SP. Pull one from a cartridge and section it, I bet you will be suprised how thin the jacket really is. Price of ammo should be your last concern.