Most practical hunting/trail gun caliber for the 1873 Winchester and clones: .44-40, .45, .357?

[Cossack]

I've been thinking about picking up an Uberti/Cimarron or Winchester/Miroku contemporary version of an 1873 Winchester, but I am trying to decide which chambering to get it in.

Before we go on, I'm not particularly interested in getting a Marlin or a Model 92. It's the '73 specifically that holds the mystique for me. So even though the stronger action guns offer more practical advantages, I'm not interested in advice to "just get a Model 92."

I'm not into CAS shooting, so I don't see myself pouring thousands of rounds through this rifle annually.

I have just wet my toes a little bit into reloading, but I'm not a serious reloader yet.

So, what I'm interested in is which caliber offers the best or most versatile utility for small and medium game. I picture myself taking the occasional deer or pronghorn and just dragging it along for camping and hiking. I'll be punching paper and cans otherwise.

.44 Magnum would be ideal, but it's not offered in the guns I'm interested in. I think Uberti offers it in a barrel-band carbine version, but I only like the rifle forend. I realize that you shouldn't really load up an 1873 action for grizzly-busting loads in .45 colt, which is a pity, but hey, I'll just carry bear spray anyway.

So which chambering do you think offers the most outdoor and hunting utility?

[44 AMP]

I've never been a fan of the .44-40. Its a decent round and the "period correct" one if that matters. to me, it doesn't.

I began shooting .357 in the 70s and .45 Colt in the 80s, so I have a little bit of experience with both cartridges and love them both, for different reasons.

For a "most practical" gun, I'd pick the .357. The wide range of ammo possible, and the ability to use .38 SPL makes it more versatile than the .45 Colt.

Recoil is light even with full house .357s and about none with .38s. Ammo/components are widely available, and usually if you can get anything you can get .357/38 stuff.

For game, loaded to what your gun will handle the .357 is a bit short of a .30-30 but will do fine with the right bullets within its range limitations.

From a rifle length barrel, and game hunting, proper bullet selection is important. Hollow points, designed to expand at pistol velocities can be drastically overdriven from a rifle barrel, severely changing their expansion rate. Use the right bullet for the speed its moving and the task at hand, and the .357 will do fine.

Also, being smaller than the .45, components are a bit cheaper.

I don't give the .357 the nod over the .45 for any real reason other than its more common, so if choosing one, that makes it slightly more "practical", I think.

[jmr40]

With 44 mag off the table then 357 would be my choice from a practical perspective.

[reinert]

I have that same mindset as you, Cossack, on a '73. Through many back years, and a few times a year (STILL!), I've considered investing in a '73, and it would have to be in 44-40, and no doubt would have to be one from Uberti. Then I'd play with the idea of which model, and it always settles on the straight stocked, oct. barreled, short rifle. Sam Elliot had a really nice one, which looked original to me, in Conagher, my favorite Elliot movie (probably Sam's own personal one, I'd like to think). "That Mystique," as you said... yeah, a '73, coolest "Old West" lever gun ever (IMO).

Anyway, I'm a reloader, and wouldn't have a problem reloading for the 44-40, I just don't really need one, as much as I hate to say it. I DO have a Marlin (sorry I mentioned it) M94 in .41 Rem. Mag., which I really like a lot, and it goes with my Ruger NMB in the same caliber. I'm not into CAS, either, but those two guns are my "New West," cowboy rig. Since you mentioned hunting, the .41 mag is a legal caliber in Wyoming with which to hunt big game. Actually, the 44-40 is legal for big game in Wyoming, too, as it's over 1.5" in overall cartridge length. Dang, I just don't need one...yet...

After posting this, I'll have to look up the Uberti website and cruise all the '73 models, and then settle once again on "Sam's Choice" (not Walton...).

And then, just to add to the timeless mystique of the '73 (in 44-40 ), there's this:

http://www.winchesterguns.com/news/a...ting-arms.html

[Cossack]

Here’s a thought: are the carbine and rifle forend stocks interchangeable? If I bought a carbine with a barrel band front end, could I just replace it with a rifle style forend?

Reinert, why would you have to have the Uberti and not the Winchester?

If we ignore the vast array of options in .38/.357 off the shelf, which is a big factor in practicality, how do you compare the potential of the .357 vs. the .45 Colt from a 20” or greater barrel, obviously considering that +P or “Ruger only” .45 loads are probably not going to be a good idea for the 1873 action?

[44 AMP]

considering that +P or “Ruger only” .45 loads are probably not going to be a good idea for the 1873 action?

The longer barrel will add velocity to the .45 Colt, and while the percent of increase isn't as much as you can get with the .357, the carbine barrel should make standard loads the rough equal of "Ruger only" .45 Colt loads fired from a pistol.

The greatest increase will come from the slower powders in the long barrel but everything will show some increase.

[reinert]

Why the Uberti and not the Winchester? Probably because I have 3 Uberti guns now, and have always liked their products. I have a custom re-worked Santa Fe Hawken I've had since 1980 (well proven through the years in the field and in competition), and two revolvers; a .44, 1858 Rem NMA, and a .36, '51 Navy. Both handguns are fine things in fit, finish, function, and very accurate; very nice stuff, indeed.

Also, I have some good friends that did do the CAS for a good number of years (we're all old guys now...), and they pretty much all had Uberti guns and they were all happy with the performance (lots of shooting and reloading in that game; muzzleloader competition was enough for me back then). So again, I never got into the CAS thing; muzzleloading, rendezvous and the fur trade era stuff was my main forte. Besides that, I couldn't afford another activity involving the equipment cost needed for the CAS, nor the time involved with a job and a family.

But I got to handle my buddies' Uberti cowboy stuff, and the '73 replicas some of them had were total things of "Old West" beauty. So, I always thought, even back then, maybe in the future... but so far, it ain't happened. But if I ever did shell out for a '73 short rifle, it'd be a Uberti with the octagon barrel without a second thought.

IF Winchesters were still made in New Haven, I'd surely consider that route, but I'm sure you know that that's not the case anymore. And AFAIC, there's nothing wrong with the Moroku guns (I did own in the past one of their early '86's and a M71; both fine things, and no tang safeties on either of them), it's just that the short rifle "Winchester" offers hasn't got those great case colors the Uberti's have, nor are they offered with an octagon barrel (pretty sure that's the case nowadays). If I ever did spring for a '73, I'd probably look at it more than I'd shoot it these days anyway (probably mess with it watching Conagher. Ha!). And it definitely would be a 44-40..., just because, and it'd probably be loaded with black powder, too...just because.

[reinert]

And there it is. Dang it! Now you got me goin' again! What a beaut!

www.gunbroker.com/item/872287018

[jetinteriorguy]

I almost bought one used once, it was out of my budget at the time so I hesitated. Everything about it was so buttery smooth. After thinking(obsessing) over night I went back the next day to get it anyway. But of course it was already gone. It was in .357 mag. So now I have Henry’s in both .357 and .41 mag and love them, but neither is as smooth or nice as that Uberti.

[jimku]

With 44 mag off the table, none appeal to me in the least. Sorry.

[DnPRK]

I don't think I would trust a toggle link system with a heavy powder load.

I shoot moderate loads with my 44-40 and 38-40 Ubertis.

[TX Nimrod]

Good point, the supposedly “weak” M73 action carries the warning to use ammunition loaded to SAAMI pressures only, no hotrod .45 LC loads, commercial or handloads. But even factory-pressure loads - with the correct bullet - can kill deer easily.

While I love the .44-40 and .45 LC, for the OP’s use I suggest the .357.

https://www.uberti-usa.com/sites/def...ting_rifle.pdf


.

[reinert]

And a 44-40 black powder load, with a proper cast bullet, will be what that rifle was initially (and safely) designed for as far as propellants go. There really can be no doubt (not to me, anyway) that the '73 in .44WCF has killed more deer (antelope too) than one might possibly imagine in this day and time, let alone the people who fell to the rifle and round back "in the day." It's all a part of the "Mystique" of our rich, good/bad, American history. The empty '73 found by the tree in NV can easily stimulate the imagination...especially after the discovery of the one 44-40 cartridge in the stock. Wow, what a find.

It really is something how we can mix and match firearms with rounds that suit us these days, and most importantly keeping safety #1 in how we do it, ESPECIALLY when reloading. It's been suggested that the best round for your needs in a '73, Cossack, might/could be the .38/.357. (?) and a can of bear spray...to ease the mind in bear country (might want two cans).

But remember, you can reload with just as much black powder in that .44 cartridge case as you can get in it before seating that cast bullet (even with a bit of compression on the powder), without worrying about a safety issue, and that's a good thing. The '73 action will handle that without a hitch.

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

The longer barrel will add velocity to the .45 Colt, and while the percent of increase isn't as much as you can get with the .357, the carbine barrel should make standard loads the rough equal of "Ruger only" .45 Colt loads fired from a pistol.

The greatest increase will come from the slower powders in the long barrel but everything will show some increase.

44 AMP is spot on so lets put some numbers to it to see what he's talking about.

1st, I have 2 Rossi '92s in .357 Mag, a 20" Carbine and 24" Rifle and 44 AMP is correct that the rifle produces higher velocities with the magnum powders, some 600+fps faster than in pistols using Lil'Gun powders, however, the OP doesn't want those models.

2nd, I also have 2 Ubertis in .45 Colt, a 19" '66 Yellowboy Carbine and a 24" '73 Special Sporting Rifle. As the action design is weaker, the concern is that one watch the bolt thrust of the caliber to ensure you aren't overstressing the design. Let's look at some original calibers and their bolt thrust vs some modern calibers and their bolt thrust first. This chart is useful for the Ubertis as the '73's toggle link action is the same in their '60, '66, and '73.



The results show that standard, 14,000psi loads in .45 Colt are more appropriate for the Uberti's design as the bolt thrust of the higher power loads significantly increase the bolt thrust. The .357 Mag's potential is so high as to stress the action, especially the toggle link pins and holes which is why I don't recommend a steady diet of magnum loads in a Uberti or any other toggle bolt lock design.

I understand that they make a special steel receiver '73 in .44 Mag, however, Steve Young of Steve's Gunz, a respected gunsmith in the Cowboy Action world still recommends not shooting a lot of full power loads in the .44 Mag because the toggle link is a weaker design than that in the '92, even though the steel frame is stronger.

So, now lets look at some Chrono data I developed using my 255grn, X-Treme plated (for cleaner bore and smoother chambering) bullet standard pressure loads with Unique powder. Per Alliant's 2019 load data manual the closest recommended loading is for a 250-gr Speer LSWC (Swaged) bullet and the max charge weight is 9.5grns and a LP primer.

I've settled on a charge of 9.1grns with both a 255grn X-Treme plated bullet and a 255 Elmer Keith style lead bullet, both with a CCI LP primer. I settled on the X-Treme plated as it fed much better. Neither load produces excess pressure signs in the primer or brass. Therefore, here are my chrono readings from 2018 at my range which is at 6,100asl on a sunny 87° day. My chrono results are an average of 10 shot strings and included my Uberti Cattleman SAA 5½" pistol, '66 Yellowboy 19" bbl Carbine, and '73 Special Sporting 24" Rifle.

Uberti Cattleman SAA 5½" pistol:
Elmer Keith Style Lead: 902fps producing 461ft/lbs of ME
X-Treme Plated: 914fps producing 473ft/lbs of ME

'66 Yellowboy 19" bbl Carbine:
Elmer Keith Style Lead: 1,159fps producing 760ft/lbs of ME
X-Treme Plated: 1,163fps producing 766ft/lbs of ME

'73 Special Sporting 24" Rifle:
Elmer Keith Style Lead: 1,181fps producing 790ft/lbs of ME
X-Treme Plated: 1,209fps producing 827ft/lbs of ME

[bamaranger]

My choice would be .357. A wide variety of factory .38 and .357 ammo gives options to shooters who are not handloaders. Should one want to pair their carbine with a revolver, there is a wider variety of options there as well, running from small J-frames, to large frame double and single actions.

The .357/.38 will be cheaper to shoot as well.

[Jim Watson]

Interesting figures on bolt thrust.
Considering modern materials and European proof law, you know that a .357 has fired 35,000 x 1.33 = 46,550 psi without blowing up. Once.
Regular use with magnums will surely loosen it up sooner than its designed calibers.

Also, a .357 M1873 is a heavy rifle with the small hole in a big barrel. The Codymatic competition gun has the rear lower barrel flats under the foreend fluted to save a little weight.

Ballistics by the Inch didn't cover a lot of .45 Colt ammo, the only standard pressure was a Federal 225 gr lead hollow point which did 1122 fps from a 20" rifle barrel. 1042 fps from their 18" test barrel before hacksaw.

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Interesting figures on bolt thrust.
Considering modern materials and European proof law, you know that a .357 has fired 35,000 x 1.33 = 46,550 psi without blowing up. Once. Regular use with magnums will surely loosen it up sooner than its designed calibers.

I talked to Steve Young, owner of Steve Gunz, at length before I got my Ubertis and he said he makes a fair amount of scratch working on '60, '66, and '73 Winchester clones with loosened actions due to excessive shooting of over standard press (14,000psi) loads.

I save my magnum stuff for my .357 Mag Rossis.

[gwpercle]

You choosing an 1873 Winchester ... the 44-40 was made for it !
My only other option would be the 38-40 which is not a 38 cal ...the bullet is .400 !
Technically it is a 40-40 and would do nicely .
Not a whole lot of difference between .400 and .429 so take your pick .
45 Colt was never offered and 32-20 is a little light for big game .
Stay away from magnum chamberings in the 1873 the action was not designed to handle the pressure ... the toggle is a weaker design and limited .
Gary

[stinkeypete]

You said “small and medium game” so let’s assume rabbits and squirrels more often than deer, but perhaps the occasional deer.

32-20.

Yep, there you go... and I bet you can hand load them to pretty stout, given the receiver can take .357 Magnum loads.

.357 is the clear practical choice unless you are shooting rabbits!

[Hawg]

Personal preference would be 44-40 with black powder. Most practical would probable be .357.

[darkgael]

For a "most practical" gun, I'd pick the .357. The wide range of ammo possible, and the ability to use .38 SPL makes it more versatile than the .45 Colt.

This^^^^^.

[COSteve]

As I have both Uberti '66 and '73 as well as the stronger actioned and lighter Rossi '92s, I think I have an appreciation for both. I understand each design's strengths and weakness. I also do agree with those who say that the .357 Mag is the better choice for all around shooting but I'm hesitant to recommend it in the weaker toggle link design used in the Ubertis.

I said above that I handload for all my center fire arms which includes my .357 Mag. Currently I only load 5 different levels of .357 Mag ammo; 125grn plated bullet puff loads for my Cattleman SA Cavalry model pistol, 125grn plated and JSP medium loads for my carbine and 158grn plated and JSP full power loads for my rifle for shooting steel plates at 300 yds.

However, I have in stock some other loads I made up in the past I don't regularly use. They include 90grn and 158grn puff loads as well as some 180grn hard cast full power hunting loads. Therein lies the beauty of the .357 Mag in a levergun suitable to shoot full power loads in on a regular basis.

While I haven't chrono'd my 90grn puffs as they don't even make it to the 100yd target but strike the ground at about 95yds, I have chrono'd my full power 158grn loads I use for longer range shooting to calculate the trajectory so I have the data. I haven't chrono'd my 125grn medium power loads yet as they are a new addition to my 'stable' this summer after 11 years of shooting 158grn exclusively out of my leverguns.

Using Lil'Gun powder and 158gr plated bullets, I've achieved 10rd averages of a whopping 2,005fps with 1,410ft/lbs ME and with the JSP bullets an equally impressive 1,987fps with 1,385ft/lbs ME. That's about 10% faster and 250+ ft/lbs more ME than full power loads using H110 powder with the same bullets, at the same range, in the same conditions.

Those numbers demonstrate why many of us think that the .357 Mag is a perfect choice for an all around use levergun. Light weight mouse fart loads, decent performing 125grn medium level loads good for 200yds plinking, full power 158grn loads to hunt small to medium game and to shoot steel out to 300yds, and heavy 180grn and even 200grn hard cast full power loads for medium game at reasonable distances; up to say 125yds.

But as the OP wants a '73 style levergun and their toggle link action limits the bolt thrust they should see, I still don't recommend one in .357 Mag unless the shooter is going to shoot mostly .38 Spl level and only an occasional .357 Mag.

[mrt949]

I have a new marlin 357 stainless and a ruger sp1o1 in 357 mag
MY HOUSE GUNS

[reinert]

Just a little cinematic nostalgia here involving a Model '73 Winchester. Quite the scene involving a Trooper with a well-trained horse, a defiant, mounted, Apache warrior calling out a challenge to a duel. Looks like Jason Patric (Gatewood) is using a .44 WCF short rifle to me.

From, "Geronimo An American Legend."

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNCYMJWPP1o

[Blue Duck]

I chose a .357 in the 73. It's the octagon barrel, short rifle. I would get that one again, probably as it has a good set of sights on it and the saddle ring carbines have terrible sights sometimes, and the long barreled rifles are too heavy.