Cratering and Smoke from reloads - Page 2

Kevin1996 · January 20, 2016, 07:00 PM

F. Guffey-

I am using .308 diameter bullets, exactly what the gun is rifled for. I will try and use the FMJ bullets that I bought and will hopefully get better results

TimSr · January 21, 2016, 01:50 PM

Quote:

I believe the pressures inside your cases is too low to force the primer to conform to the firing pin and if the firing pin spring is not strong enough it is possible for a hole to appear without a dent. All of that happens while the reloader is not watching or when the primer and firing pin can not be seen.

I'm leaning in this direction also.

One thing that I highly suggest for ALL new reloaders is to start with bullets and loads that are common and typical for the caliber you are reloading, that are specifically listed in the data manual you are using. After you get some experience loading with typical name brand components listed in your load data, then you can start playing with off brand, bargain, plated bullets, or 30 carbine. It's hard to develop and troubleshoot custom specialty loads without establishing a relaible baseline.

Unclenick mentions some Hornady, Sierra, and Speer bullets, made for 30-30, of typical weights commonly used. Instead of buying more factory ammo to keep comparing, I would suggest buying some name brand 30-30 bullets of 150 or 170gr and load them until you have experience and something to compare your experiments with bargain or non-typical bullets with.

Kevin1996 · January 24, 2016, 09:22 PM

I have since acquired factory loads and shot them. I also shot one cartridge loaded with 26.9 gr of the 748 and the same plated 150 gr bullets, attempting to meet the bullet manufacture recommendations. Here are the results:

On left: Prvi Partizan 30-30Win 170gr bullet
Rated at Muzzle Velocity: 2181 fps

On right: My load with 26.9 gr of 748 and 150 gr plated bullet.

The primer indentations seem to be the same whether it's a factory load or not. This leads me to believe that it is indeed either a weak firing pin or the firing pin hole being too large. This is only hypothesized from what I have heard from others.
In any case, this seems to be safe and is a matter of my firearm instead of the ammunition. I am still looking for advise as to whether I should just leave this be or (if it's the weak firing pin) get a new firing pin spring. Doesn't seem to affect anything but if there are any downsides, I would rather just get it fixed.

Salmoneye · January 25, 2016, 07:58 AM

I agree with the slightly over-size firing pin hole...

If you have no other concerns, I'd say leave well-enough alone...

Pathfinder45 · January 26, 2016, 03:34 AM

I shoot and reload for 30-30 quite a bit, so I followed this thread and thought I would throw in my two-cents. It does seem that dimensions of your rifle's firing pin and pin-hole are the main factors in the fired primer appearance. In your original photos there seemed to be little difference at all in primer appearance from lightest to heaviest loads. Your lightest loads I wouldn't be worried about. If you get a chance to have the velocity chronographed, you can get some peace of mind about your heavier loads or get concerned and back off. If your velocities are close to what the manual says for a maximum load, you should probably back off a little if the manual used a longer barrel length. A 20" carbine should be a good 75 to 100 fps slower than a 24" barreled rifle. You are using a good powder for the 30-30. I haven't any experience with those bullets you have been using. I mostly shoot 170 grain bullets in mine, both cast and jacketed, and a generally run the cast bullets at full velocity. I'm getting 2,150 - 2,175 fps with either cast or jacketed from a 20" Winchester carbine. That's about 100-150 fps faster than most powders can go within allowable pressures, but I am using Hodgdon's BL-C(2) Powder to get there. I also like IMR-4895, but only expect to get to 2,050 fps or a little better with that one. I've used 748, and it's good too. Stay below well maximum charges, at least until you can chronograph some of your upper loads to know if you can go a little higher or not. Velocity is an indication of pressure, all else being equal. Sure, you can get more velocity with one powder and still have less pressure than that other powder, but still, with any one powder, more of it, produces more pressure, and thus, more velocity. If you find that you are getting 100 fps more velocity than the manual shows for a maximum load, you better believe that you have excessive pressure even if your recipe is a grain below their maximum listing.

stubbicatt · January 26, 2016, 04:27 AM

My last comment is that the rifle primers one is using are also used in loads that may reach upwards of 60,000 psi or thereabouts in other cartridges, so designed to reach those sorts of pressures.

They will show flattening at those kinds of pressures.

The old 30 WCF is significantly lower maximum pressures, which I don't remember right now. I sort of doubt that you will see flattened primers in this cartridge as signs of excessive pressure.

So other signs of pressure such as Pathfinder45 has suggested in his posting will have to be paid attention to. Sticky extraction is one sign of excessive pressure that one is most likely to experience in this cartridge, due to the long taper in the shoulder portion of the case. If pressure is enough to spring the action a little, when the pressure subsides, the case will want to stick in the chamber, and may exhibit resistance to the initial extraction upon opening your lever.

F. Guffey · January 26, 2016, 01:33 PM

Then there is the bouncing hammer. Then there is the short barrel. I sent a 30/30 off to a new home with new owners. I sent 3 different boxes of reloads with 2 boxes of new ammo. There is absolutely no way that rifle will shoot all 5 boxes the same.

F. Guffey

Longshot4 · January 27, 2016, 11:13 AM

Those pictures are nice and sharp. I would not be surprised if the firing pin is to blame. Those primers remind me of a primer that wouldn't fire then tried again. They would show on the primer a deep point. I wonder if the firing pin spring is too heavy or the pin is not the correct length.

Show your pictures on the Smith Forum. I believe you will get the information from those that repair and install many firing pins and firing pin springs.

Pathfinder45 · January 27, 2016, 02:58 PM

I'm thinking that maybe it's not a big deal. But Longshot's advice to run it all by the Smith forum is a good idea. If you have a maximum size firing pinhole with a minimum size pin, yet all within allowable tolerances, and this is the likely result. But if the pinhole is oversize there may be a risk of blown primers leaking high pressure basses back though the bolt. Wear shooting glasses.......

PA-Joe · January 28, 2016, 07:13 PM

What weight bullets? My Lyman Manual says start at 23.8 grains of 748 for a 169 grain lead bullet for 1604 fps.

January 24, 2016, 09:22 PM	#28
Kevin1996 Junior Member Join Date: January 18, 2016 Location: New York Posts: 13	*Update* I have since acquired factory loads and shot them. I also shot one cartridge loaded with 26.9 gr of the 748 and the same plated 150 gr bullets, attempting to meet the bullet manufacture recommendations. Here are the results: On left: Prvi Partizan 30-30Win 170gr bullet Rated at Muzzle Velocity: 2181 fps On right: My load with 26.9 gr of 748 and 150 gr plated bullet. The primer indentations seem to be the same whether it's a factory load or not. This leads me to believe that it is indeed either a weak firing pin or the firing pin hole being too large. This is only hypothesized from what I have heard from others. In any case, this seems to be safe and is a matter of my firearm instead of the ammunition. I am still looking for advise as to whether I should just leave this be or (if it's the weak firing pin) get a new firing pin spring. Doesn't seem to affect anything but if there are any downsides, I would rather just get it fixed.

January 20, 2016, 07:00 PM	#26
Kevin1996 Junior Member Join Date: January 18, 2016 Location: New York Posts: 13	F. Guffey- I am using .308 diameter bullets, exactly what the gun is rifled for. I will try and use the FMJ bullets that I bought and will hopefully get better results

January 25, 2016, 07:58 AM	#29
Salmoneye Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 2,076	I agree with the slightly over-size firing pin hole... If you have no other concerns, I'd say leave well-enough alone...

January 26, 2016, 03:34 AM	#30
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	I shoot and reload for 30-30 quite a bit, so I followed this thread and thought I would throw in my two-cents. It does seem that dimensions of your rifle's firing pin and pin-hole are the main factors in the fired primer appearance. In your original photos there seemed to be little difference at all in primer appearance from lightest to heaviest loads. Your lightest loads I wouldn't be worried about. If you get a chance to have the velocity chronographed, you can get some peace of mind about your heavier loads or get concerned and back off. If your velocities are close to what the manual says for a maximum load, you should probably back off a little if the manual used a longer barrel length. A 20" carbine should be a good 75 to 100 fps slower than a 24" barreled rifle. You are using a good powder for the 30-30. I haven't any experience with those bullets you have been using. I mostly shoot 170 grain bullets in mine, both cast and jacketed, and a generally run the cast bullets at full velocity. I'm getting 2,150 - 2,175 fps with either cast or jacketed from a 20" Winchester carbine. That's about 100-150 fps faster than most powders can go within allowable pressures, but I am using Hodgdon's BL-C(2) Powder to get there. I also like IMR-4895, but only expect to get to 2,050 fps or a little better with that one. I've used 748, and it's good too. Stay below well maximum charges, at least until you can chronograph some of your upper loads to know if you can go a little higher or not. Velocity is an indication of pressure, all else being equal. Sure, you can get more velocity with one powder and still have less pressure than that other powder, but still, with any one powder, more of it, produces more pressure, and thus, more velocity. If you find that you are getting 100 fps more velocity than the manual shows for a maximum load, you better believe that you have excessive pressure even if your recipe is a grain below their maximum listing.

January 26, 2016, 04:27 AM	#31
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	My last comment is that the rifle primers one is using are also used in loads that may reach upwards of 60,000 psi or thereabouts in other cartridges, so designed to reach those sorts of pressures. They will show flattening at those kinds of pressures. The old 30 WCF is significantly lower maximum pressures, which I don't remember right now. I sort of doubt that you will see flattened primers in this cartridge as signs of excessive pressure. So other signs of pressure such as Pathfinder45 has suggested in his posting will have to be paid attention to. Sticky extraction is one sign of excessive pressure that one is most likely to experience in this cartridge, due to the long taper in the shoulder portion of the case. If pressure is enough to spring the action a little, when the pressure subsides, the case will want to stick in the chamber, and may exhibit resistance to the initial extraction upon opening your lever.

January 26, 2016, 01:33 PM	#32
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Then there is the bouncing hammer. Then there is the short barrel. I sent a 30/30 off to a new home with new owners. I sent 3 different boxes of reloads with 2 boxes of new ammo. There is absolutely no way that rifle will shoot all 5 boxes the same. F. Guffey

January 27, 2016, 11:13 AM	#33
Longshot4 Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2014 Posts: 868	Those pictures are nice and sharp. I would not be surprised if the firing pin is to blame. Those primers remind me of a primer that wouldn't fire then tried again. They would show on the primer a deep point. I wonder if the firing pin spring is too heavy or the pin is not the correct length. Show your pictures on the Smith Forum. I believe you will get the information from those that repair and install many firing pins and firing pin springs.

January 27, 2016, 02:58 PM	#34
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	I'm thinking that maybe it's not a big deal. But Longshot's advice to run it all by the Smith forum is a good idea. If you have a maximum size firing pinhole with a minimum size pin, yet all within allowable tolerances, and this is the likely result. But if the pinhole is oversize there may be a risk of blown primers leaking high pressure basses back though the bolt. Wear shooting glasses.......

January 28, 2016, 07:13 PM	#35
PA-Joe Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: NEPA Posts: 909	What weight bullets? My Lyman Manual says start at 23.8 grains of 748 for a 169 grain lead bullet for 1604 fps.