Forming obsolete (and not so obsolete) cases

dburkhead · November 11, 2008, 05:54 PM

When I was looking at a Mauser 1891 Argentine, some of my research mentioned that the cases for it could be formed from a variety of other cases. My question is how is that done? Are there special die you can buy or what?

dahermit · November 11, 2008, 06:03 PM

In some cases, it takes a series of special dies. In some cases, for instance forming .32 Winchester Special from 30-30 Winchester cases (Or vice-versa), you just lube the case and size the 30-30 case in a .32 Winchester full length die. The cost of forming dies (depending on each specific situation) can be very expensive. It only makes sense in those situations if there is no source for the correct cartridge case, and your desire to shoot that gun is compelling enough to pay what it will cost.
If your gun is chambered for the 7.65 Argentine Mauser (7.65 Belgian), there still should be some loaded, boxer primed ammo available, but you might have to search for it.

Scorch · November 11, 2008, 06:03 PM

For many obsolete cartridges, you can simply trim to length, then run an empty base brass case through a sizer die. For example, forming 7.65 Argentine can be done by simply trimming to length and reforming a 30-06, 7X57, or 8X57 case in 7.65X53mm Argentine dies, then turning the necks. Others require use of a forming die. And still others will require several steps including neck reaming and base stripping. Sometimes there's quite a bit of manipulation required. For 7.65X53mm Argentine brass, you can just buy commercial brass from Hornady or Norma and avoid the headaches.

F. Guffey · November 11, 2008, 07:40 PM

dburkhead, 1 800 533 5000 RCBS has a special order catalog that list the case wanted and the parent case to be used, the 8X57, 7X57, 257 Roberts, 308 Winchester case can be formed using the 30/06 and the list is endless.

The 91 Argentine started as the 7.65X53 Belgium Mauser (B.M.) cartridge. It is possible to form the 7.65X53 case from 30/06 with a 7.65X53 full length sizer die, success improves when a forming/trim die is used, when the forming die is used a hack saw is used to trim the excess, then a file is used to finish the trim before the case is removed from the forming/trim die. The cases formed in the forming/trim die must be full length sized, trimming with the die is good for + or - .001.

To justify the expense, 100 cases will cases will cost $109.00, a trim die will cost close to $30.00. as long as you can find 30/06 cases, you will never run out of cases, I prefer military cases for forming, the military case does not have a caliber designation.

http://www.grafs.com/metallic/781

http://www.chuckhawks.com/7-65x53_7-65x53R.htm

F. Guffey

Al Norris · November 11, 2008, 08:10 PM

The only supplier of 7.65arg cases I know of is made by Norma. They are currently selling at midway for $109.99/100. That's $1.10/pc.

For that same amount of money, you can get the RCBS Form & Trim die (30.06 cases), Lee Pacesetter 3 die set (the one I use) or the RCBS 2 die set and 100 pcs of Win or Rem 30.06 brass.

All of the loaded surplus ammo I have been able to get, prior to June 2008, when I got the dies, was berden primed. There may be some boxer primed surplus out there, but I haven't seen it. First-run Norma ammunition is prohibitively expensive (174gr RN @ 36.49/20).

You will want to slug your barrel. Sizes very from .310cal - .312cal. I've had good success using standard Japanese 7.7mm .303 bullets @ .311dia. The best results I've had were with Hornady 7.7mm .303 @ .3105dia. 174gr FMJ BT. But most .311dia will do nicely.

HTH.

Locoweed · November 13, 2008, 03:30 PM

For cartridge conversions of all kinds try The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions by John Donnelly, 2002 revised edition, about $39.95. It's 1,055 pages and covers just about everything imaginable. It's published by the Stoeger Publishing Company and should be available from the bigger mail order houses or your book seller.

November 11, 2008, 05:54 PM	#1
dburkhead Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2008 Posts: 116	Forming obsolete (and not so obsolete) cases When I was looking at a Mauser 1891 Argentine, some of my research mentioned that the cases for it could be formed from a variety of other cases. My question is how is that done? Are there special die you can buy or what? __________________ The award winning fantasy series "Heroes in Hell" returns this July with the new collection "Lawyers in Hell." http://heroesinhell.wordpress.com/ Including a new story by David L. Burkhead

November 11, 2008, 06:03 PM	#2
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	Forming cases In some cases, it takes a series of special dies. In some cases, for instance forming .32 Winchester Special from 30-30 Winchester cases (Or vice-versa), you just lube the case and size the 30-30 case in a .32 Winchester full length die. The cost of forming dies (depending on each specific situation) can be very expensive. It only makes sense in those situations if there is no source for the correct cartridge case, and your desire to shoot that gun is compelling enough to pay what it will cost. If your gun is chambered for the 7.65 Argentine Mauser (7.65 Belgian), there still should be some loaded, boxer primed ammo available, but you might have to search for it.

November 11, 2008, 06:03 PM	#3
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	For many obsolete cartridges, you can simply trim to length, then run an empty base brass case through a sizer die. For example, forming 7.65 Argentine can be done by simply trimming to length and reforming a 30-06, 7X57, or 8X57 case in 7.65X53mm Argentine dies, then turning the necks. Others require use of a forming die. And still others will require several steps including neck reaming and base stripping. Sometimes there's quite a bit of manipulation required. For 7.65X53mm Argentine brass, you can just buy commercial brass from Hornady or Norma and avoid the headaches. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

November 11, 2008, 07:40 PM	#4
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	dburkhead, 1 800 533 5000 RCBS has a special order catalog that list the case wanted and the parent case to be used, the 8X57, 7X57, 257 Roberts, 308 Winchester case can be formed using the 30/06 and the list is endless. The 91 Argentine started as the 7.65X53 Belgium Mauser (B.M.) cartridge. It is possible to form the 7.65X53 case from 30/06 with a 7.65X53 full length sizer die, success improves when a forming/trim die is used, when the forming die is used a hack saw is used to trim the excess, then a file is used to finish the trim before the case is removed from the forming/trim die. The cases formed in the forming/trim die must be full length sized, trimming with the die is good for + or - .001. To justify the expense, 100 cases will cases will cost $109.00, a trim die will cost close to $30.00. as long as you can find 30/06 cases, you will never run out of cases, I prefer military cases for forming, the military case does not have a caliber designation. http://www.grafs.com/metallic/781 http://www.chuckhawks.com/7-65x53_7-65x53R.htm F. Guffey

November 11, 2008, 08:10 PM	#5
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	The only supplier of 7.65arg cases I know of is made by Norma. They are currently selling at midway for $109.99/100. That's $1.10/pc. For that same amount of money, you can get the RCBS Form & Trim die (30.06 cases), Lee Pacesetter 3 die set (the one I use) or the RCBS 2 die set and 100 pcs of Win or Rem 30.06 brass. All of the loaded surplus ammo I have been able to get, prior to June 2008, when I got the dies, was berden primed. There may be some boxer primed surplus out there, but I haven't seen it. First-run Norma ammunition is prohibitively expensive (174gr RN @ 36.49/20). You will want to slug your barrel. Sizes very from .310cal - .312cal. I've had good success using standard Japanese 7.7mm .303 bullets @ .311dia. The best results I've had were with Hornady 7.7mm .303 @ .3105dia. 174gr FMJ BT. But most .311dia will do nicely. HTH.

November 13, 2008, 03:30 PM	#6
Locoweed Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2008 Location: Alabama Posts: 661	For cartridge conversions of all kinds try The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions by John Donnelly, 2002 revised edition, about $39.95. It's 1,055 pages and covers just about everything imaginable. It's published by the Stoeger Publishing Company and should be available from the bigger mail order houses or your book seller.