243 neck expanding, help please

mjl126 · March 11, 2006, 02:02 AM

Ive been lurking around in this forum for about 3 months when I began reloading for a couple of pistol calibers and I just want to say thanks for all the information I have gotten from you guys just by searching and reading. Now I have a question I haven't found the answer to. 243 is my first rifle caliber and for some reason I cant get my brass to expand to accept a bullet. I'm using the lee deluxe 3 die set with 72 gr. barnes varminator bullets and new rem brass. Ive read the directions and that came with the dies and in a couple of manuals hoping to find something I might have missed but I still cant get any neck axpansion with either the full length sizer or the neck sizer. Hoping someone out there could help me out with what I may be doing wrong. Thanks in advance.

Smokey Joe · March 11, 2006, 02:50 AM

Mjl126--Hmmm, that's an interesting problem. First off, I trust that you are running the cases all the way in to whichever sizing die you're using. Giving the cases a 1/4 turn or so and running them into the die again sometimes decreases the neck inside diameter, as well as making the case necks more round and straight.

Nextly, the sized neck is supposed to be a thousandth or so LESS in inside diameter than the bullet is in outside diameter, so that when you push the bullet into the case neck with the seater die, the neck is stretched a little and thus holds the bullet in place nicely.

So you do get a noticeable resistance in yr reloading press handle, when you push the bullet into the case neck. If the bullet just slopped in, it wouldn't reliably stay there. (I did that once inadvertently. Bad scene.)

Another thought: Some manufacturers make bullets just a teensy bit smaller in diameter than others, even when they are nominally the same diameter. You might have an unfortunate combination of big-for-its-nominal diameter bullets, and a small-for-its-diameter sizing die.

Do you have an inside/outside caliper with which you could check these diameters?

mjl126 · March 11, 2006, 03:26 AM

I set the the full length sizer about a 1/4 turn past where it touches the shell holder and the neck sizer about 1-1/2 turns past. My brass after resizing is at .240" ID and the handfull of bullets I measured were at .243 OD. I know what you mean by the brass needing to be a little smaller than the bullet to keep tension. Ive been trying to force some bullets in by hand but the closest I got was having the bullet being lightly stuck in the case and extremely croocked. it just really doesnt feel right which makes me think something else might be wrong.

mtnboomer · March 11, 2006, 06:08 AM

You may need an expander ball that is .001" or .002" smaller in diameter to get the tension you need. You could order one from the manufacturer - for a price - or you could remove the pin from the die and chuck it in a power drill and use extra-fine sandpaper to polish the expander ball down to size.

Rivers · March 11, 2006, 10:51 AM

You don't need anything more than enough experience to realize that the reason we uses presses is because we aren't supposed to be able to seat bullets by hand. Rifle cases aren't "belled" like handgun cases. If you'll use boattails, you'll find that they're easier to seat.

Your Lee dies will work just fine; your .003" of neck tension isn't too much.

loggerhead · March 11, 2006, 11:45 AM

Sort of makes me wonder if he is using "the neck resizer bal."

I have always thought, that when resizing the neck outer diameter is decreased 2 or 3 thousandth or so on the full in stroke and on the out stroke the "resizing ball" will open it back up to the proper diameter to hold the bullet. But, I have been reloading a long time and I still run into stuff that I didn't know, all the time.

kingudaroad · March 11, 2006, 12:18 PM

With the upstroke of the sizing operation are you feeling/seeing the expander ball come back up through the neck? There is usually enough resistance here that a little lube is neccesary.

I have to hold the bullet with my fingers when ran up into the seater die.The bullet will not start into the case at all by itself like hangun cases that were belled.

Since no crimp is neccesary,you need tight neck tension on the bullet.

Art Eatman · March 11, 2006, 12:38 PM

If you'rehaving trouble with flat-based bullets, a cure is to chamfer the inside of the mouth of the case. Back before I first found the special tool for that purpose--50-some years ago--I just carefully used my pocket knife.

, Art

mjl126 · March 11, 2006, 01:04 PM

thanks for all of the help so far. I have a feeling I may have only thought I understood the need for proper neck tension, and I forgot about the fact that I am not crimping these bullets like the straight wall pistol cases that I have all of my limited experience with. Ill try chamfering the cases a little bit, this will probably do the trick. When you guys refer to the resizing ball, is this an actual ball somewhere on the depriming stem that goes down inside the case? I took my dies apart while I was trying to figure out my problem (which is probably just in my head) and noticed this rod appears to be the same width of the case neck all the way down. I never measured it but it seems to be uniform to the naked eye, I never saw anything that resembles a ball.

Art Eatman · March 11, 2006, 01:19 PM

I mostly use RCBS dies. On the stem of the decapping rod that runs down through my resizing die, the dealie that threads onto the end and holds the decapping pin in place made of hardened steel. That dealie is the expander. Its outside diameter is .240, I guess, for a .243.

When you run the case into the die, you feel resistance of first the pin pushing out the fired primer, and then the resistance of the sizing of the neck. When you pull the case from the die, you should feel the resistance of the expander as it sizes the case mouth.

Art

kingudaroad · March 11, 2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:

That dealie is the expander.

Well said Art.

rwilson452 · March 11, 2006, 05:23 PM

With the Lee Collet neck sizing die you will not feel resistance when you do the up stroke. The collet does all the sizing. the pin only acts as an anvil for the collet to keep it from compressing the brass too far and to insure it's circular.
When doing a rifle round such as the .243 the neck should be too small for you to push the bullet in by hand. that is what the seating die is for. Hold the bullet on the case mouth and guide it into the seating die. allow the die to push your fingers down the case. Once the bullet is completely in the die get your fingers out of the way and continue to seat the bullet. The bullet should then true up in the die and seat properly. If your having difficulty with this step, get some boattail bullets which will seat much easier until you get the feel for it.

It is different than straight wall pistol cases. your using neck tension alone to hold the bullet in place. The only time you should need to crimp a bottle neck rifle cartridge is if your loading for a semi-auto.

Rivers · March 11, 2006, 05:41 PM

Lee rifle dies don't use an expander ball.

mjl126 · March 11, 2006, 09:39 PM

well, I feel like an idiot, just thought id let everyone know I solved my problem. As soon as I chamfered the cases and guided the bullet up into the die everything worked great. They all shot fine, I just need to work on my accuracy now. Thanks for helping me out.

Smokey Joe · March 11, 2006, 11:05 PM

Don't be too embarrassed--at least you knew enough to yell for help!

Reloading is simple enough that we all develop these nasty little complexities from time to time. If it were more complicated we'd probably be able to keep it simpler.

elkman06 · March 14, 2006, 11:32 PM

What kind of loads are you building? Powder, etc. I've been loading 100gr bullets for deer, etc. Using 40gr of 4831 and mag primer. Shoot very straight for me.
Elkman

mjl126 · March 15, 2006, 12:34 AM

So far I have only made up and shot a few rounds of 72 gr hollow points all with 38.5 grains of varget. I havent had a chance to begin working up a load with this bullet/powder combo. Hopefully with some better weather this weekend I will be able be able to experiment with some different powder charges. Mainly I am just looking to find a good target/ squirrel load for right now.

UniversalFrost · March 19, 2006, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Mainly I am just looking to find a good target/ squirrel load for right now.

How big are the squirrels you are shooting?

I come from South Dakota/Nebraska and the biggest one I every shot was about 2.5 lbs and was shot out of a tree next to a grain silo full of corn (little sucker had been fattening himself). I only used a .22 LR and took him down with one shot to the head. Some people use a .410 or 20 gauge for squirrels, but it just ruins the meat. I would suggest using you .243 for coyotes and whitetail deer. I have a .243 (mauser 98 custom built and was my first deer rifle as a gift from my parents many years ago). I am new to reloading my self, but have had my gunsmith load up 85 grain Barnes X bullets for whitetail deer loads. The X bullets have more knock down power and better expansion and penatration than typical sof point type bullets. Try a few and you will like them.

http://www.outdoorsuperstore.com/sto...~X-BULLETS.htm

or

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammun...723/index.html

Also, don't the squirrels just turn into splatter when you shoot them with a .243? If that is what you're into I would suggest prairie dogs; they don't move so fast and are always in groups (plus very dumb compared to a squirrel).

March 11, 2006, 02:02 AM	#1
mjl126 Junior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Posts: 5	243 neck expanding, help please Ive been lurking around in this forum for about 3 months when I began reloading for a couple of pistol calibers and I just want to say thanks for all the information I have gotten from you guys just by searching and reading. Now I have a question I haven't found the answer to. 243 is my first rifle caliber and for some reason I cant get my brass to expand to accept a bullet. I'm using the lee deluxe 3 die set with 72 gr. barnes varminator bullets and new rem brass. Ive read the directions and that came with the dies and in a couple of manuals hoping to find something I might have missed but I still cant get any neck axpansion with either the full length sizer or the neck sizer. Hoping someone out there could help me out with what I may be doing wrong. Thanks in advance.

March 11, 2006, 02:50 AM	#2
Smokey Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: State of Confusion Posts: 2,106	Neck expansion?? Mjl126--Hmmm, that's an interesting problem. First off, I trust that you are running the cases all the way in to whichever sizing die you're using. Giving the cases a 1/4 turn or so and running them into the die again sometimes decreases the neck inside diameter, as well as making the case necks more round and straight. Nextly, the sized neck is supposed to be a thousandth or so LESS in inside diameter than the bullet is in outside diameter, so that when you push the bullet into the case neck with the seater die, the neck is stretched a little and thus holds the bullet in place nicely. So you do get a noticeable resistance in yr reloading press handle, when you push the bullet into the case neck. If the bullet just slopped in, it wouldn't reliably stay there. (I did that once inadvertently. Bad scene.) Another thought: Some manufacturers make bullets just a teensy bit smaller in diameter than others, even when they are nominally the same diameter. You might have an unfortunate combination of big-for-its-nominal diameter bullets, and a small-for-its-diameter sizing die. Do you have an inside/outside caliper with which you could check these diameters? __________________ God Bless America --Smokey Joe

March 11, 2006, 06:08 AM	#4
mtnboomer Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2004 Location: Oklahoma by birth. America by the grace of God. Posts: 635	You may need an expander ball that is .001" or .002" smaller in diameter to get the tension you need. You could order one from the manufacturer - for a price - or you could remove the pin from the die and chuck it in a power drill and use extra-fine sandpaper to polish the expander ball down to size. __________________ Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati (If all else fails - play dead!) Support the Second Amendment. Join the NRA > http://www.nra.org < Oklahoma State & Big 12 - #1 GO POKES!!!!!

March 11, 2006, 12:18 PM	#7
kingudaroad Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Location: austin Posts: 735	mjl With the upstroke of the sizing operation are you feeling/seeing the expander ball come back up through the neck? There is usually enough resistance here that a little lube is neccesary. I have to hold the bullet with my fingers when ran up into the seater die.The bullet will not start into the case at all by itself like hangun cases that were belled. Since no crimp is neccesary,you need tight neck tension on the bullet.

March 11, 2006, 05:23 PM	#12
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	neck sizing With the Lee Collet neck sizing die you will not feel resistance when you do the up stroke. The collet does all the sizing. the pin only acts as an anvil for the collet to keep it from compressing the brass too far and to insure it's circular. When doing a rifle round such as the .243 the neck should be too small for you to push the bullet in by hand. that is what the seating die is for. Hold the bullet on the case mouth and guide it into the seating die. allow the die to push your fingers down the case. Once the bullet is completely in the die get your fingers out of the way and continue to seat the bullet. The bullet should then true up in the die and seat properly. If your having difficulty with this step, get some boattail bullets which will seat much easier until you get the feel for it. It is different than straight wall pistol cases. your using neck tension alone to hold the bullet in place. The only time you should need to crimp a bottle neck rifle cartridge is if your loading for a semi-auto.

March 11, 2006, 03:26 AM	#3
mjl126 Junior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Posts: 5	I set the the full length sizer about a 1/4 turn past where it touches the shell holder and the neck sizer about 1-1/2 turns past. My brass after resizing is at .240" ID and the handfull of bullets I measured were at .243 OD. I know what you mean by the brass needing to be a little smaller than the bullet to keep tension. Ive been trying to force some bullets in by hand but the closest I got was having the bullet being lightly stuck in the case and extremely croocked. it just really doesnt feel right which makes me think something else might be wrong.

March 11, 2006, 10:51 AM	#5
Rivers Junior member Join Date: November 5, 2005 Posts: 670	You don't need anything more than enough experience to realize that the reason we uses presses is because we aren't supposed to be able to seat bullets by hand. Rifle cases aren't "belled" like handgun cases. If you'll use boattails, you'll find that they're easier to seat. Your Lee dies will work just fine; your .003" of neck tension isn't too much.

March 11, 2006, 11:45 AM	#6
loggerhead Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2006 Location: Right of the Mississippi but South of the Mason Dixie line Posts: 132	Sort of makes me wonder if he is using "the neck resizer bal." I have always thought, that when resizing the neck outer diameter is decreased 2 or 3 thousandth or so on the full in stroke and on the out stroke the "resizing ball" will open it back up to the proper diameter to hold the bullet. But, I have been reloading a long time and I still run into stuff that I didn't know, all the time.

March 11, 2006, 12:38 PM	#8
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	If you'rehaving trouble with flat-based bullets, a cure is to chamfer the inside of the mouth of the case. Back before I first found the special tool for that purpose--50-some years ago--I just carefully used my pocket knife. , Art

March 11, 2006, 01:04 PM	#9
mjl126 Junior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Posts: 5	thanks for all of the help so far. I have a feeling I may have only thought I understood the need for proper neck tension, and I forgot about the fact that I am not crimping these bullets like the straight wall pistol cases that I have all of my limited experience with. Ill try chamfering the cases a little bit, this will probably do the trick. When you guys refer to the resizing ball, is this an actual ball somewhere on the depriming stem that goes down inside the case? I took my dies apart while I was trying to figure out my problem (which is probably just in my head) and noticed this rod appears to be the same width of the case neck all the way down. I never measured it but it seems to be uniform to the naked eye, I never saw anything that resembles a ball.

March 11, 2006, 01:19 PM	#10
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I mostly use RCBS dies. On the stem of the decapping rod that runs down through my resizing die, the dealie that threads onto the end and holds the decapping pin in place made of hardened steel. That dealie is the expander. Its outside diameter is .240, I guess, for a .243. When you run the case into the die, you feel resistance of first the pin pushing out the fired primer, and then the resistance of the sizing of the neck. When you pull the case from the die, you should feel the resistance of the expander as it sizes the case mouth. Art

March 11, 2006, 05:41 PM	#13
Rivers Junior member Join Date: November 5, 2005 Posts: 670	Lee rifle dies don't use an expander ball.

March 11, 2006, 09:39 PM	#14
mjl126 Junior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Posts: 5	well, I feel like an idiot, just thought id let everyone know I solved my problem. As soon as I chamfered the cases and guided the bullet up into the die everything worked great. They all shot fine, I just need to work on my accuracy now. Thanks for helping me out.

March 11, 2006, 11:05 PM	#15
Smokey Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: State of Confusion Posts: 2,106	Hey, glad it worked! Don't be too embarrassed--at least you knew enough to yell for help! Reloading is simple enough that we all develop these nasty little complexities from time to time. If it were more complicated we'd probably be able to keep it simpler. __________________ God Bless America --Smokey Joe

March 14, 2006, 11:32 PM	#16
elkman06 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Location: Wyoming Posts: 885	What kind of loads are you building? Powder, etc. I've been loading 100gr bullets for deer, etc. Using 40gr of 4831 and mag primer. Shoot very straight for me. Elkman

March 15, 2006, 12:34 AM	#17
mjl126 Junior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Posts: 5	So far I have only made up and shot a few rounds of 72 gr hollow points all with 38.5 grains of varget. I havent had a chance to begin working up a load with this bullet/powder combo. Hopefully with some better weather this weekend I will be able be able to experiment with some different powder charges. Mainly I am just looking to find a good target/ squirrel load for right now.