|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
December 14, 2017, 10:00 AM | #226 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,454
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php |
||||
December 14, 2017, 11:00 AM | #227 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Quote:
This bill forces states to comply with a Federal mandate against the will of the people and the laws of that state. This mandate is based on the premise that unrestricted concealed carry is a Constitutional right granted by the Second Amendment. I understand that your position is, "shall not be infringed," means that any regulation of keeping and bearing arms is a violation of our rights. In a woodenly ridged interpretation this would mean that the right to bear arms supercedes my right to forbid it on my property, or that banning guns in court violates my right. We cannot dismiss the prefatory clause because we believe that, 'we the people,' are the militia, without at least examining what, "well regulated," means. This bill, if passed, says I have the right to carry in your state, based on my 2A rights regardless of your laws. The problem is there is not universal agreement that this is the intent of the Amendment. Your state's view of what, "well regulated," means may be completely different than mine. Without a clear mandate, inserting the Feds nose into the tent of the individual states is more troubling to me than the fact that I can't carry a gun in NJ or NYC.
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
|
December 14, 2017, 12:29 PM | #228 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2013
Posts: 975
|
|
December 14, 2017, 12:59 PM | #229 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Quote:
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
|
December 14, 2017, 01:19 PM | #230 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 7,523
|
Quote:
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak |
|
December 14, 2017, 02:56 PM | #231 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,467
|
Quote:
|
|
December 14, 2017, 03:00 PM | #232 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,446
|
Not belittling, just try to find out. Many of the young folks here, taught in today's public schools ARE young and naive..............
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa |
December 14, 2017, 03:02 PM | #233 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,467
|
Quote:
If I live in Kansas and I want to visit the statue of liberty and see New York, I'll be crossing state borders, and I'll be spending money that I earned in Kansas on food, lodging, transportation, and "stuff" in New York. How is that NOT interstate commerce? |
|
December 14, 2017, 08:24 PM | #234 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,454
|
Quote:
Note that the terms of the reciprocity bill don't just bear on application of state laws on people from other states, but on the residents of the state as well. A resident of state X can get a permit from state Y, and use it to carry an arm manufactured in state X within state X. Quote:
Carrying your arm is not a public accommodation or necessary to or substantially affecting interstate commerce. I would like to see you able to carry it in every state, just not at the price of inviting Congress into every state to regulate how everyone else can carry. In the long run, I don't trust Congress more than state legislatures in matters of state police powers.
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php Last edited by zukiphile; December 15, 2017 at 06:39 AM. |
|||
December 15, 2017, 01:33 AM | #235 | ||
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,986
|
Quote:
In other words, each state will be limited, at least to some extent, as to what carry laws it can write and enforce. Quote:
In other words, at least some of their rules won't apply to me. We can argue about whether or not those infringements on state's rights are large or small, and about whether or not they are worth letting the federal government get their noses under the tent, but it's pretty obvious that they ARE getting their nose under the tent with this law.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
||
December 15, 2017, 02:59 AM | #236 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
The reciprocity bill?
The original argument, or way to look at it, this bill. Is from the perspective of a State issued driving license, allows driving in every State? For instance at this time, a retired Law Enforcement Officer, on retirement, with X number of years service? Can carry concealed in every state. With a re-ql. each year. If this has not caused blood in the streets, as bleated about with the people who opposed it? Why would I carrying in Sacramento CA, visiting with my Wife, once a year, the last visit a month? Be a big deal? Visiting Malls, with a 4-year-old, and 5 years old, and sharing the area, with some sketchy characters? Make any normal person feel threatened? At this time my only means of protection is my City Stick, a composite walking stick, that is better than nothing. I would even not find it too much of an inconvenience, to swap my 15 round magazines for the 10 rounders, mandated in Democrat land CA. My Glock 19 was waiting for me in my safe on my return! Gods Country. Florida. As my Wife and I are the only denizens of our wee Townhouse, the three green dots are visible on my bedside table right now! Merry Christmas all. |
December 15, 2017, 08:56 AM | #237 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,454
|
Quote:
http://apps.csg.org/ncic/Compact.aspx?id=56 I can recall traveling with my father and the PO wanting to keep his driver's license because he was a resident of another state. This was supposed to insure payment of the ticket or appearance in court. I believe one of the reasons people belonged to AAA was that it would post a bond for your out of state appearance, and you were allowed to retain your license.
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php |
|
December 15, 2017, 10:23 AM | #238 | ||||
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,467
|
Quote:
I do not understand you naysayers. The principle underlying this law is exactly the same as that underlying the FOPA and the LEOSA. FOPA: Quote:
LEOSA: Quote:
Proposed reciprocity (HR 38): Quote:
Last edited by Aguila Blanca; December 15, 2017 at 10:30 AM. |
||||
December 15, 2017, 10:40 AM | #239 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,389
|
"But the threshhold was as simple as the person could no longer balance his/her checkbook and therefore needed (or just wanted) some help in watching the money, not that they were in any way a danger to society. Ask Mike Irwin -- IIRC, he went through this with his mother. (Not the NICS report, but the fact that she reached a point of not being capable of managing her own finances. That didn't make her a menace to society.)"
Correct. Mom was having increasing trouble managing her finances, was missing payments, and worse, was randomly canceling stuff that she needed, like insurance. Went through hell sorting that out, but she didn't give me too much hassle taking over her bills. I did, however, take her (my actually) gun away from her. She was FAR more pissed about that than she was me handling her finances.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
December 15, 2017, 10:44 AM | #240 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,446
|
Because those of us who do not live with the restrictions imposed by NJ, NY, CA, etc. do not want them imposed in out state from a Federal level - and that WILL happen; maybe not immediately, but once the administration changes, it will. This is NOT a Federal government issue, and I - for one - do not want it to become one.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa |
December 15, 2017, 11:15 AM | #241 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 13, 2005
Posts: 4,454
|
Quote:
LEOSA over-rides those state police powers where an individual is an agent of another law enforcement agency, an agent from another jurisdiction. FOPA protections for travelers pertain specifically to travel through a jurisdiction. HR 38 is direct congressional interference in a state's exercise of police powers over state residents for activity within that state.
__________________
http://www.npboards.com/index.php Last edited by zukiphile; December 15, 2017 at 01:20 PM. |
||
December 15, 2017, 07:54 PM | #242 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 7, 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 532
|
Quote:
When a permit holder becomes a resident of a new state, he’ll be required to obtain a new permit pursuant to the laws of his new state. Quote:
Indeed, all regulatory authority will remain solely with the states. |
||
December 15, 2017, 11:24 PM | #243 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Quote:
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
|
December 15, 2017, 11:51 PM | #244 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,467
|
Quote:
And the FOPA applies to people traveling through states with guns, including states where the residents can't travel with guns. Like my state. It's legal to possess a handgun here without a license/permit, but unless you have a license/permit you can't even [legally] take your handgun to a range for practice -- even if it's unloaded and in a locked case while you're transporting it. But anyone transporting the same make and model handgun from a state to our west to a state to our east can do so under the FOPA. So, if the proposed HR 38 is in any way a harbinger of camels and tents, I'd say the camel is already into the tent at least up to his first hump. |
|
December 16, 2017, 12:12 AM | #245 | |||||
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,986
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
1. If the assumption is warranted, it's not a fallacy. 2. My objection is not based purely on the assumption that it will lead to more actions--although that assumption is warranted/reasonable based on past patterns of federal regulation and encroachment--it is also based on general principle. Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
|||||
December 16, 2017, 02:27 AM | #246 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 5,299
|
Quote:
|
|
December 16, 2017, 11:45 AM | #247 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,467
|
Quote:
Which ignores the fundamental fact that a retired LEO is not an LEO. He/she is a private citizen -- just like you and me. |
|
December 16, 2017, 12:10 PM | #248 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 22, 2014
Location: Floyd, VA
Posts: 242
|
The 10th Amendment to the US Constitution states:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The right to "keep and bear arms" is delegated to the United States through the 2nd Amendment, and is therefore to my thinking not a state issue at all. The problem is the states interpret the words "keep and bear arms" differently. Is it not the role of the US Supreme Court to resolve such different interpretations of the US Constitution among the states? By leaving the interpretation to the states, an upstanding and law abiding citizen in State A may become a felon by crossing the border into State B with his legally owned firearm and spend years in prison. What could be more important for the SCOUS to clarify? TomVA
__________________
In NJ, the bad guys are armed and the households are alarmed. In VA, the households are armed and the bad guys are alarmed. |
December 16, 2017, 02:59 PM | #249 | |
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,986
|
Quote:
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
|
December 19, 2017, 07:27 AM | #250 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 17, 2005
Location: Swamp dweller
Posts: 6,187
|
Quote:
__________________
NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be. |
|
|
|