Glock G20 or G40 as a woods gun?

[DaleA]

Congrats!!! New Gun Day (NGD) is always a cause for celebration.
Let us know how you like it after you've had it a while.

Just curious, are you going to mount optics on it?

[PatientWolf]

I will likely add optics, but it may be a little while. I may start with some decent suppressor height night sights or high visibility sights that would be suitable for co-witness when I do add an optic.

I want to do a little research on an optic before I move forward with that. I'm going to want one that is accurate and durable. Cost is also a consideration, but accuracy, consistency and durability are a must.

[wild cat mccane]

With you hunting comment, I take my seat

Of course, the only round that performs well in 10mm because by design it penetrates better than it expands is the Hornady XTP (where Hornady notes the Xtreme Performance comes from its penetration, not expansion https://www.hornady.com/bullets/xtp). Any other round in the BBs/DT/Underwood shops are either the cheapest HP bullets available that already have bad expansion and require the huge FPS jump (Seirra) or are being pushed too fast for the bullet design-hence Gold Dot's maker Vista Outdoors only pushing it's 10mm factory ammo at the totally low 1100fps in a long barrel.

[agtman]

Of course, the only round that performs well in 10mm because by design it penetrates better than it expands is the Hornady XTP (where Hornady notes the Xtreme Performance comes from its penetration, not expansion https://www.hornady.com/bullets/xtp). Any other round in the BBs/DT/Underwood shops are either the cheapest HP bullets available that already have bad expansion and require the huge FPS jump (Seirra) or are being pushed too fast for the bullet design-hence Gold Dot's maker Vista Outdoors only pushing it's 10mm factory ammo at the totally low 1100fps in a long barrel.

"Only"? ... Huh?

Clearly you like making B.S. up whenever the 10mm is discussed.

Aside from the XTP, Hornady's 200gn FMJ-FP has been a known and reliable penetrator for decades. Cor-Bon used to market a 10mm 'hunting' load using a hard-edged 200gn bullet called the 'Penetrator.'

Federal too offers a credibly hot 180gn 10mm load (1275fps/650fpe) using the deep-penetrating Trophy-Bonded bullet.

Then there are the 'heavy' hardcast slug available in 10mm/.40-cal (poly-coated and uncoated types). You can get these in various weights - 200gns, 210gns, 220gns and I believe, 230gns. The 220 HC boolit seems to be the "sweet spot," for 'heavy & fast.' For example, out of my G40, I can handload SNS Casting's 220gn polycoated FP boolit to just shy of 1250fps (for around 760fpe)

As far as the 10mm and JHPs go, the Golden Sabers are much better penetrators at real 10mm velocities than the GDs. DT proved that in the early days (2005-ish) when McNett tested them using denim-covered ballistic gel. This was right before DT released its purposely 'short-penetrating' 135gn Nosler JHP load for those 10mm users concerned about 'over-penetration' when EDC-ing in densely-populated urban areas, or for 'home defense' inside thin-walled apartments or similar structures.

[wild cat mccane]

You will see that FMJ is tested in Lucky Gunners test.

It went the exact depth a 9mm FMJ goes.

[JohnKSa]

You will see that FMJ is tested in Lucky Gunners test.

It went the exact depth a 9mm FMJ goes.

Which 10mm FMJ do you mean? The only 10mm FMJ I see in the 10mm Luckygunner penetration testing is the Buffalo Bore 200gr FMJ-FN. It penetrated 32" when shot out of a G20.

32" was full penetration of the two blocks of gel they were using which means that the bullets were recovered from the backstop behind the blocks and would have penetrated farther if there had been more blocks.

"Any rounds that completely penetrated both blocks and continued into our backstop were simply marked as 32” in our data."

I don't see any 9mm FMJ data on the 9mm Luckygunner penetration results, but data I have seen elsewhere suggests that penetration for a midweight 9mm FMJ bullet is about 2 feet. That is consistent with the deepest penetrating 9mm on the Luckygunner site which was a JHP round that didn't expand at all and went 26.5" into the gel.

At any rate, it seems clear that one can expect a good bit more penetration from non-expanding 10mm rounds than one would expect from non-expanding 9mm rounds. The Luckygunner data indicates that difference is no less than about half a foot and is likely significantly more than that.

[bamaranger]

About a decade or so ago, the AL Cons Officers adopted the G35 as their duty pistol for uniformed game wardens. The G35 of course is built on the smaller 9mm/40 frame and slide dimensions. The G35 has a 5.25 inch barrel. The G35's were despised by every WCO I ever talked with. Primary criticism was that the 5.25" pistols were too long for comfortable, everyday carry with a duty rig. To get the pistols high enough on the torso with vertical carry on a duty holster rig, the pistols had to ride extra high. With a lower riding holster, one had to put up with the muzzles boring into vehicle seats and pistol butts banging you in the ribs every time you sat in your vehicle or boat traveling over rough water and 4wd tracks. Next gripe was that the G22 was certainly available, yet the heavier, longer G35 was selected instead. Why the organization chose the G35 over the G22 is anybody's guess. But whoever made the choice likely never carried one daily in a duty rig for 8-10-12 hrs at a clip. I dunno whether they still carry the G35 or not.

But I state all this to illustrate the point that you gotta carry your woods pistol. If the G35 was not popular with the WCO's afield daily, the G40, at 3/4" longer and 8.1 oz heavier (loaded weights) would be even more of a hassle to anybody intending to carry one very far or for long periods. Add an optical sight to the G40, and it gets even heavier and more bulky.

The G20 comes in 4.76 oz lighter (loaded) than a G40, and nearly 1.5" shorter in length. It carries easier. Note that at least one post mentions that he went to the G29, from the G20, due to portability. I recognize the advantages of the G40 in sight radius and velocity gain. All fine and dandy if you are going to ride the ATV to within a couple of hundred yds of the stand or blind and then sit for hours. But if one is going to hike any distance, or in and out of vehicles or clamber about rough country on foot, , you will likely notice the added weight and size of the G40. I'd like a G40 (I think) for its easy adaptability to an optic and additional velocity, but it wold be a specialized pistol, not one I would wander the wilds with any distance.

I retired my magnum revolvers for a G20 years ago because it carried easier. The weight was about the same, but the flatter, sleeker profile of the auto pistol was far easier to abide with versus the hammer, sights and longer tubes and big butts of the revolvers.

[agtman]

But I state all this to illustrate the point that you gotta carry your woods pistol. If the G35 was not popular with the WCO's afield daily, the G40, at 3/4" longer and 8.1 oz heavier (loaded weights) would be even more of a hassle to anybody intending to carry one very far or for long periods. Add an optical sight to the G40, and it gets even heavier and more bulky.

Can't agree with that comparison, whether there's a mini-RDS mounted or not. You're talking about L.E. types getting in & out of vehicles all day in full gear wearing G35s in agency-issued duty belt-holsters.

Carry comfort with the longslide Glock 40 is entirely dependent on choice of holster, and most of the time it'll get carried while standing up, either stalking (hunting), walking a trail, or moving around a camp site. That's why I strongly advocated (above) for the OP to consider one of the several center-chest rigs. It's solely about dedicated 'woods' and 'trail' use, not for concealed EDC. Sitting in a tree stand while wearing one is even easier - ask me how I know.

The C-C rigs, with some small variation, all carry the gun secure but accessible, and do so more comfortably than either the belt-mounted 'field holsters' you see handgun-hunters wearing on their hips, or the traditional 'under-the-armpit' shoulder holster (whether vertical or horizontal).

The G20 comes in 4.76 oz lighter (loaded) than a G40, and nearly 1.5" shorter in length. It carries easier. Note that at least one post mentions that he went to the G29, from the G20, due to portability. I recognize the advantages of the G40 in sight radius and velocity gain. All fine and dandy if you are going to ride the ATV to within a couple of hundred yds of the stand or blind and then sit for hours. But if one is going to hike any distance, or in and out of vehicles or clamber about rough country on foot, , you will likely notice the added weight and size of the G40. I'd like a G40 (I think) for its easy adaptability to an optic and additional velocity, but it wold be a specialized pistol, not one I would wander the wilds with any distance.

I have all three 10mm Glocks, and the G29 carries the best - no question there. But again, for a dedicated, single-purpose woods/field gun, the C-C rig I have carries my G20 just as easily as it does the G40, so the weight difference between the guns when held in the hand is unnoticable when actually holstered.

Truthfully, you really can't go wrong packing either the G20 or the G40, assuming they're loaded 15+1 with a proper hard-n-heavy 10mm 'woods' load. Either gun is capable of dispatching the 4- or 2-legged predators roaming the boonies. It's just the G40 arguably gives you a bit more - not just the velocity uptick from the 6.2" tube, but the MOS-capability too.

I retired my magnum revolvers for a G20 years ago because it carried easier. The weight was about the same, but the flatter, sleeker profile of the auto pistol was far easier to abide with versus the hammer, sights and longer tubes and big butts of the revolvers.

I agree with this.

[PatientWolf]

I've ordered a Gunfighters Inc Kenai holster, so all the issues with wearing on the hip shouldn't affect me and for this gun, CC is not a consideration.

[COSteve]

Originally Posted by reddog81

Anyone who's says one is significantly better than the other is only fooling themselves.

If you are including long range shooting, velocity advantages, and use as a woods gun for hunting or SD in that statement, then you sir don't know what you are talking about.

I've chrono'd my hot 180grn loads in both a shooting buddy's G20 and my G20L and the measured velocities were significantly higher in the longer, 6" barrel; some 150fps-175fps measured. That's from 1,309fps in his G20 and 1,479fps in my G20L. My 165grn screamers produce even more of a difference in velocity. The G40 produces a significant increase in velocity.

As stated by others above, if you're hunting or using one for a woods gun, then the 28% longer sight radius is an advantage for hitting a dangerous animal at a safer range. In addition, the heavier muzzle weight tames more of the recoil so aimed follow-up shots are quicker. The G40 has a significant advantage for hunting or SD against animals.

In addition, if you're talking about using it for longer range shooting, then the higher velocity producing flatter trajectories, coupled with the longer sight radius is a significant advantage. I shoot my G20L with 165grn loads at steel at 200yds standing, two handed with iron sights. It's not hard to hit a 18" steel plate with it. We've both tried the same ammo in my bud's G20 and with the shorter sight radius and the slower velocity, it's much harder to even hit the plate. The G40 is more accurate at long ranges which is a significant advantage.

As I've shown above, the increased velocities mean increased Muzzle Energy; 685ft/lbs vs 874ft/lbs which is important with a dangerous, thick skinned, 4-legged animal. The G40 produces 28% higher muzzle energy in a 180grn load which is a significant advantage.

So, if you're talking SD at 12yds, then the extra length of the G40 isn't a particular advantage as both will produce plenty of penetration and accurate sighting is less important. However, everywhere else, the G40 has the advantage and a significant one at that.

Lastly, the OP specifically asked if the one had an advantage over the other as a woods gun. I'd say that overall, the above real world data shows that the G40 has a significant advantage over the G20.

[JohnKSa]

I've chrono'd my hot 180grn loads in both a shooting buddy's G20 and my G20L and the measured velocities were significantly higher in the longer, 6" barrel; some 150fps-175fps measured. That's from 1,309fps in his G20 and 1,479fps in my G20L. My 165grn screamers produce even more of a difference in velocity. The G40 produces a significant increase in velocity.

Interesting--I'll admit I'm not entirely sure what to make of those results.

That is a much bigger velocity difference than was seen with any of the nine 10mm loadings tested by Ballistics By The Inch. In fact, it's significantly more than double the average difference and more than 40fps higher than the largest difference, which, by the way, was seen in a very light bullet loading.

The heavier bullet loadings (150gr or heavier) showed only an average velocity increase of 53fps going from the G20 to G40 barrel length, about a third of the velocity difference measured in your experiment.

While it is certainly true that the 1.42" increase in barrel length between the G20 and the G40 will make a difference in velocity, BBTI's testing (using the SAME barrel cut to different lengths) suggests that even a 2" difference in barrel length (more than half an inch more difference than between the G20 and G40) is not very likely to make a 170fps difference except perhaps with very light bullet loadings.

If I had to guess, I would say that the very large velocity differences in your test results might be explained more accurately by individual variation in the two guns tested as opposed to by barrel length difference alone.

[ifithitu]

I like these two.

[bamaranger]

agtman, Have read your comments regard holsters and carry and am inclined to agree, that the carry/holster rig for the G40 would best be a C-C rig. I do not believe that pistol would carry easily all day long in a conventional hip holster. A butt forward, off side crossdraw MIGHT work OK, anything to get the longer tube up and out of the way. But a C-C does sound best.

Adding an optic of any kind to any firearm (and I am to the point that I need them almost universally ) does add weight and bulk, some more than others of course. But the right carry rig/holster will make a huge difference, as it does with near any handgun.

Now that the G40 is indeed on the market, and the G29 on the other end, I am more and more seeing the G20 as the middle ground do all 10mm Glock, ...........that way I can resist committing to a G40!!!!

Good shooting to you.

[HiBC]

Wildcat McCain....

I have never met a person with a real bear story. Or any "woods" gun worthy story. It's the talk of all internet gun boards. I've always assumed marketing departments of big revolver companies have done a particularly fine job of hitting the fear button.

Before I went to Alaska,I heard all the mantra from the "bear experts",not to worry,the bears are more scared of you,etc.
Well,I have a bear story.I was 200 river miles from the nearest road when my former spouse was bit through the side of the tent.
I don't feel like writing the whole story,but this bear was encouraged to leave and he refused. He had a spooky blank stare and he was gradually advancing.I have no doubt he was planning on a meal.That means killing us.
All you bear experts have no credibility with me.

He was upright and I put a 12 ga foster slug in his mouth,facing front on.

He went down and got back up. I put one in his neck/spine and he was done.

His lower teeth turned the soft Foster slug to lead cornflakes.No penetration.

You see,Wildcat,you may have taken walks in AK,but in your own words,you have "no bear story,and never met anyone who has one"

Another way of saying that,you have met no one who carried a 9mm/40 that survived.

You want to use an expanding 9mm/40,be my guest.You have no bear experience.Only internet and magazines.

I have been a 44 Mag wheel gum guy,and 300 gr hard cast bullets have chrono'1300 fps out of my Ruger. It might work.It will penetrate.My goal would be to break bones and cut nerves. I figure a bear will kill me befire he bleeds out.

FWIW,I killed an elk with my .44. I used a 240 gr expanding jacketed bullet.I hit spine in the neck.The bullet broke up and stopped in the spine.No exit.Thats about 6 in,not over 8 penetration.You can keep your expanding bullets.

I find the Glock 20 interesting. I'd dump the polygon barrel for a Lone Wolf with grooves .The hard cast Buffalo Bore 200 gr bullets at about 1200 fps are what I would load. Thats not quite a 41 Magnum....

But a 41 Magnum does not hold,what? 19? in the magazine.

I'd call it a good choice for a woods gun.

FWIW,I know the "bear experts" are thinking "period or food in the tent" because that fits the agenda.

Well,no period and I bought the tent new for the trip,and consciously never took any food in the tent.

I did figure out what may have contributed. Baby wipes smell like cheap 7-11 donuts.

Most important thing to remember is bears don't read books.

[agtman]

If I had to guess, I would say that the very large velocity differences in your test results might be explained more accurately by individual variation in the two guns tested as opposed to by barrel length difference alone.

I'd say the velocity differences are explainable not only by length, but by the individual qualitative characteristics of the two barrels.

COSteve's buddy's G20, for example, might have had looser chamber tolerances in its barrel, as opposed to a tighter chamber in the barrel in COSteve's 20L. Perhaps the rifling in the 20L tube was more 'match-grade' in quality than the rifling in a standard G20 barrel(?).

While it is certainly true that the 1.42" increase in barrel length between the G20 and the G40 will make a difference in velocity, BBTI's testing (using the SAME barrel cut to different lengths) suggests that even a 2" difference in barrel length (more than half an inch more difference than between the G20 and G40) is not very likely to make a 170fps difference except perhaps with very light bullet loadings.

See, I don't get that. Why test using one barrel that's then cut shorter?

Why not take someone's unmodded Gen4 G20 with its stock factory 4.6" barrel and test it against an unmodded Gen4 G40 with its stock factory 6.2" barrel? In other words, pitting finished, 'as-issued' factory barrels of the latest manufacturing quality (Gen4s) against each other? Only the length would differ.

What's really needed is more testing in that vein with a wider variety of bullet-weight. From the light 135gn-155gn screamers up to the 'heavy & fast' HC loads, like the 200gn/220gn that DT, BB, and UW produce.

[HiBC]

agtman,do Glocks still come with polygon barrels?
If so,they are not suitable for hard cast Buffalo Bore ammo. See the Hickok 45 vids.
Lone Wolf is an option.

[agtman]

agtman,do Glocks still come with polygon barrels?
If so,they are not suitable for hard cast Buffalo Bore ammo. See the Hickok 45 vids.
Lone Wolf is an option.

Yes, they still use polygonal rifling. And yes, LWD is one option among several aftermarket barrel makers. KKM is another. Bar-Sto makes, or made, tubes for Glocks as well. Long ago I bought one for my G29 that had to be hand-fitted. I got it for the tighter chamber tolerances in order to shoot maxed-out handloads.

However, I've found the Glock barrels will handle some 'minor' amount of the hot HC loads. You just have to clean them more frequently. Your 10mm Glock will survive a 15-rd magazine or two firing the hot BB/DT/UW 'bear defense' HC ammo. Again, just clean it right away afterwards.

Likely nobody taking a 10mm Glock into the AK boonies is going to fire through more than 2 mags anyway (30-rds) to stop or turn a bruin's charge.

The best way to handle HC loads in Glock factory barrels is to handload the polycoated types, which is what I use exclusively in my Glock 40. SNS Casting offers a variety of weights in 10mm polycoated HC boolits, and I feed my G40 the 220gn FPs. I can get those to about 1250fps. They work and you won't be breaking the bank stocking your reloading bench with them.

Obligatory linky: http://www.snscasting.com/40-s-w-10mm/

The twin benefit of the coating is (1) there's no lead build-up in the barrel, and (2) the coating imparts a 'slickness' to the slug that makes for easy feeding up the ramp.

[wild cat mccane]

If those screaming rounds are hollow points, I'd love to see one shot through gel to see what happens to the bullet. At some level of FPS every hollow point becomes frangible. Even Golden Sabers in the lonely 380 have been shown to break up when loaded hot. I said XTP is the only hollow point in 10mm worth the FPS because it won't break up by design. Even that might not be true when reaching 1500fps? I did also say the boutique loaders loading with Gold Dots at hot levels might not be that great of a round.

I'm reading that the avg 9mm FMJ goes anywhere from 24-40" in ballistic gel. Just good info to have. All three boutique hot roaders (DD, BB, UW) sell a "wood" 9mm. All are 147gr flat. Since the meplat/truncated nose doesn't do anything until large caliber, I would think a hot 124gr would do better for the increased fps. (truncated rounds only crush more in large calibers http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html). It's not the fact they sell it that tells me 9mm could do fine, it's that the difference in 10mm is more hyped than supported.

Think about it. Nuclear Fiocchi or 124gr 9mm is 1250fps. Hottest 9mm 115gr Carbon at 1350fps.

We have a load in 10mm that was just questioned at 165gr at almost 1500fps.

I'm not saying there isn't a difference. I would ask what you are hitting with that where it will make a difference. Additionally, hitting with a bullet that isn't designed for 1500fps at a massive 6" barrel, might as well buy frangible rounds for hunting-which no one would suggest.

I've ask before and never got a real reason for why red dots come one long barrel guns (unlike the new MOS Walther PPS). Red dots, you would think by their function, aren't doing anything on a longer barrel. Unless it's competition and power factors are at play?

[jr24]

Though I appreciate the balance of the G20 over the 40 (much like I prefer commander 1911s) for a woods gun, were it my money I'd get the 40. Mostly so it'd be legal for hunting in my state.

OP made a good choice I think, and got a great deal!

My favored woods load is 200 grain Hornady XTP @ around 1200 fps. XTPs dont expand a ton, but they hold together and penetrate well, which is good for woods work.

Basically try to emulate this

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collec...=7865916686393

[jr24]

I've ask before and never got a real reason for why red dots come one long barrel guns (unlike the new MOS Walther PPS). Red dots, you would think by their function, aren't doing anything on a longer barrel. Unless it's competition and power factors are at play?

Just my opinion, but long barrel hunting type guns are all I'd want a red dot for. Let's me get a nicer, precise picture at range.

Close up CCW guns I much prefer irons as they are faster and more natural to my hands.

[JohnKSa]

I'd say the velocity differences are explainable not only by length, but by the individual qualitative characteristics of the two barrels.

Right, that's what I said. Individual variation between the two DIFFERENT barrels appears to have made more difference than length alone would be expected to.

See, I don't get that. Why test using one barrel that's then cut shorter?

Because that eliminates individual variation between barrels since the SAME barrel is used for every test in that caliber. The chamber is the same for every test, the rifling is the same for every test because it's exactly the same barrel for every test in that caliber.

Why not take someone's unmodded Gen4 G20 with its stock factory 4.6" barrel and test it against an unmodded Gen4 G40 with its stock factory 6.2" barrel?

For one thing, it's expensive and time-consuming enough to ruin a barrel for every caliber, and shoot a dozen or so loadings over and over in the same barrel through a chronograph without also trying to test every possible gun on the market vs. every other possible gun on the market.

They do include some chronograph testing from commercially available guns in each caliber, but those are guns they have on hand, they're not trying to buy a bunch of guns to test in each caliber.

And, of course, when you test DIFFERENT guns with DIFFERENT chambers and DIFFERENT rifling then you are also getting the individual variation in your test data when what you really want is to know ONLY how length affects the velocity.

What's really needed is more testing in that vein with a wider variety of bullet-weight. From the light 135gn-155gn screamers up to the 'heavy & fast' HC loads, like the 200gn/220gn that DT, BB, and UW produce.

The BBTI 10mm testing includes bullets as light as 135gr and as heavy as 200gr.

I'll bet that if you buy them another 10mm barrel and 50-100 rounds of ammunition in every loading that you want tested, they would happily do the testing and add the data from those loadings to their website.